If "Seeing Red" Had Never Happened...

[white avenger]

"Seeing Red," unpleasant as it was, was the choice that the writers made to provide Spike with the realization that Buffy could never love a soulless monster, and give him the incentive to go on a quest for, and eventually win, his soul. (Whether you accept the fact that that was Spike's actual intent or not, that's what Joss said, so that's the premise that I'm going with here) The goal of this tread is to find a different motivation, some event or action so powerful that it would make Spike come to believe that his lack of a soul was the only thing preventing Buffy from having a genuine relationship with him. In other words, what else would have Spike such a powerful desire to regain his soul?

 

[sosa lola]

Perhaps attempting to turn Buffy into a vampire.

 

[white avenger]

Perhaps attempting to turn Buffy into a vampire.

Given his experience with trying to do the same thing with his mother (which, obviously, we didn't know about at the time, so it may not be a valid argument) I doubt that he would be too anxious to turn Buffy. However, having Buffy, or maybe Dawn, almost be turned by some other vampire because of something that he was responsible for might do it, especially if he got one of those, "If you had had even the spark of a normal soul, you wouldn't have allowed this to happen," type dressing downs by Angel, Giles, or Buffy, herself.

 

[Mylie]

I honestly think Seeing Red wasn't necessary. Wouldn't it have worked if he had decided to go on that quest right after Buffy ended things with him in As You Were? I think it would have worked if they had made the scene more dramatic with Buffy really making it clear that she was putting an end to this because he had no soul. There was room for it since the doctor thing reminded her that doing that stuff was in his nature

I don't know, maybe it wouldn't have been enough of a shock for the audience but I know I would have accepted it a lot more.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I don't actually like the idea of Spike getting his soul for Buffy. Spuffy is problematic anyway due to season 6 but the idea that someone has to drastically change a part of themselves just to be accepted by the other person is not the basis for a healthy relationship. Would we be so accepting if the shoe was on the other foot and Buffy had to lose her soul to be accepted by Spike?

Spike didn't go and get his soul because he wanted his soul back, he got it because he thought by having a soul Buffy would be more accepting of him.

 

[Dora]

The beating Buffy gave Spike in the Alley way although it was really how she felt about herself , Buffy could not have made it clearer about the sole thing so why did Spike not go then and get his soul for Buffy ? I think SR and the AR was yet another attempt to show people that Spike was evil, fans was forgiving him every thing, the attempted murder of the young girl when he thought his chip had stopped working , the stalking and sexual abuse of a mentally ill Buffy and still fan girls loved him, so to the AR....which a lot of fan girls blamed Buffy for, no I think Spike left SD to get the chip removed and the demon in the cave played a trick on him

 

[thetopher]

Eh, maybe if Spike saw Buffy moving on to be in a relationship with somebody else?
I mean, that could get Spike angry enough to snap him out of his funk and go and do something about his situation. That was what the aftermath of Seeing Red was about really- Spike got angry and so decided to 'prove' to Buffy that she did in fact love him. He'd show her ('bitch is gonna see a change'), and I guess he got his way.

Of course if they still insisted on keeping the 'You used me'/ 'I got a soul for you' crap in S7 I'd still have very little time for Spuffy. The victim-blaming part was just an unpleasant cherry on the top of that particular hate-cake.

 

[Dora]

I thought Buffy had moved on, she told him it was over. So many times before Spike had been able to cohorst Buffy into having sex . take the balcony seen for instant . When Spike went to Buffy in her Bathroom ,Riley's talk had given Buffy the metal strength so she could fight off Spike , much like Spikes talk to Buffy gave Buffy the metal strength to get the scythe .If Buffy had given into him like in the past the abuse would have carried on .I think it was all about trying to stop sympathy for evil over good,what better way than have a demon try to rape Buffy

 

[thetopher]

I thought Buffy had moved on, she told him it was over.

Well yeah, Buffy HAD said it was over, over and over again, but that was just words/noise to Spike- he figured that if he held out long enough then Buffy would give in and come back to him. He'd just follow her around until that happened. Listening to what other people actually say was never Spike's strong point.

But if Buffy had ACTED and had gone and gotten another snuggle-bunny then Spike would realize that she wasn't gonna come back to him any time soon.
This 'other guy' has a pulse, a soul, can walk about in the daytime, isn't stuck with one haircut...oh, the agony! So Spike would (imo) get frustrated, then angry, and then go and do something about it. Maybe that something would be a getting a soul.
Whatever had to happen it's my belief that it had to make Spike angry and bitter enough to go out and 'show Buffy' what he was made of. I never thought that Spike did what he did out of guilt or self-loathing ('cause soulless) but because he had to live up to some sort of self-image. That's more in keeping with his character.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think SR and the AR was yet another attempt to show people that Spike was evil, fans was forgiving him every thing

The thing is though, if the writers wanted to show Spike as someone terrible, then they shouldn't have given him the character development they did in the previous seasons. In season 2, they shouldn't have shown his caring side towards Drusilla. In season 4, they shouldn't have made him a regular and shown him reluctantly working alongside the scoobies. In season 5, they shouldn't have shown him protecting Dawn at the expense of being tortured. In the opening of season 6, they shouldn't have shown him as the only one Buffy could confide in.

You can't go to the audience "See this very complex character we've created, who we've spent seasons exploring and showing different layers of and who's beloved by fans because of those layers and complexities, well we now want the audience to hate him so we're going to make him a complete arsehole this season".

What came before season 6 does not gel with what happened in season 6. Yes Spike was obsessed with Buffy in season 5, but that was more of a he'd do whatever she asked if it made her love him. If she'd asked him to perform the entirety of Swan Lake in a pink tutu in exchange for allowing him to sleep in the same bed as her, he'd have done it. Season 2-5 Spike would not have acted as season 6 Spike did.

Well yeah, Buffy HAD said it was over, over and over again, but that was just words/noise to Spike- he figured that if he held out long enough then Buffy would give in and come back to him. He'd just follow her around until that happened. Listening to what other people actually say was never Spike's strong point.

To be fair to Spike on this one, Buffy never actually sticks to what she says. She tells him that the kiss at the end of OMWF was a one time thing, then she's kissing him under the stairs at the bronze. She says she doesn't want anything to do with him, then she goes to him for sex when she is invisible. Buffy gives out very mixed messages to Spike throughout the season which cause boundaries to be blurred. When is she saying no but going ahead and doing it anyway? When is she saying no and being serious about it? Spuffy was a terrible mess and dragged both characters and the season down.

 

[thetopher]

To be fair to Spike on this one, Buffy never actually sticks to what she says. She tells him that the kiss at the end of OMWF was a one time thing, then she's kissing him under the stairs at the bronze. She says she doesn't want anything to do with him, then she goes to him for sex when she is invisible. Buffy gives out very mixed messages to Spike throughout the season which cause boundaries to be blurred.

Not after 'As You Were'.
After Buffy ends it- by being honest with Spike about her feelings ('I'm using you and it's killing me') and treating also him with respect (calling him William) - she is consistent in her 'I'm not going to sleep with you/'I don't love you' etc.
Whilst you could make 'mixed signal' arguments whilst they were together, you can't afterwards, Buffy makes it clear several times over several episodes that she respects Spike's feelings for her but she doesn't share them or reciprocate. Which is why the events of 'Seeing Red' are all on Spike imo.

 

[Xanderectomy]

But if Buffy had ACTED and had gone and gotten another snuggle-bunny then Spike would realize that she wasn't gonna come back to him any time soon.
This 'other guy' has a pulse, a soul, can walk about in the daytime, isn't stuck with one haircut...oh, the agony! So Spike would (imo) get frustrated, then angry, and then go and do something about it. Maybe that something would be a getting a soul.

Spike would've probably just kill the dude.

 

[Dora]

Buffy had told Spike right from the start of his obsession that she was not interested, he even chained her up to make her say she had feelings for him. I don't think Buffy gave him any indication ever that she loved him, she apologised for using him because to a certain point Spike was Buffy's self harming, but the main culprit was Spike he knew she had come back wrong, depressed, different Buffy went to him as a confident but instead of helping Buffy he took advantage of her mental illness and abused her.In gone he arrived in the morning and sexually assaulted Buffy despite her saying no, did she not get cut her hair off because Spike said he liked it , later she went to Spike but she was acting completely out of Character once she was invisible,making out the social worker was nuts , stealing the car, the hat and Spike said you are only here because your not here did'nt stop him having sex with invisible Buffy though did it.I think the only good point of Gone was the fact Buffy told Willow that she no longer wanted to die.Spike pestering Buffy for sex kept Buffy depression going longer that's why Riley's talk made Buffy realise if she was to get better she had to break it off with Spike she had to stop self harming, it started the proceed of getting better.Turning Buffy was never a issue, not only did Spike not know how she would turnout ( his mother ) Spike was obsessed with the Slayer not Buffy but the Slayer . No if Spike wanted to impress Buffy he could have gone and got his soul at anytime, then they could well have been a couple, but if you believe that Spike went and got his soul after the AR then the only reason he did it was it was the only chance he would have to get back in Buffy pants, what better line chat up line, than "I did it for you" making Buffy feel guilty for using him to get her to accept him back . As for Fans having sympathy for Spike read what JM has said he said he acted that so that even when Spike was at his worst he made fans synthetic to Spike.... he needed not to be staked he needed the money

 

[thetopher]

Spike would've probably just kill the dude.

1) Chip. At least in S6 the chip was consistant, Spike couldn't hurt humans in any significant way. Maybe he could've hired another vamp or somebody to do it.

2) Even if he does succeed, Spike then gets found out and gets staked by Buffy or somebody, since he's shown that he's a threat to Buffy's loved ones. Again.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Not after 'As You Were'.
After Buffy ends it- by being honest with Spike about her feelings ('I'm using you and it's killing me') and treating also him with respect (calling him William) - she is consistent in her 'I'm not going to sleep with you/'I don't love you' etc.
Whilst you could make 'mixed signal' arguments whilst they were together, you can't afterwards, Buffy makes it clear several times over several episodes that she respects Spike's feelings for her but she doesn't share them or reciprocate. Which is why the events of 'Seeing Red' are all on Spike imo.

After Buffy ends it, they both seem to be on fairly good terms. Although Spike brings a date to the wedding to try and make Buffy jealous, their conversation is one of the most civilised that they'd had in a long while. Spike also then leaves. Things seem to deteriorate after that and everyone seems to freak out at Anya and Spike sleeping together (despite them both being single). The writers could've drawn a line under the whole Spuffy thing at the wedding but they chose to carry it on for the worse IMO.

 

[Dora]

That's another thing with Spike if he loved Buffy, he would have respected her wish not to tell her friends about them letting Buffy tell them when and if she wished. not blurted it out as he did, later in season seven he told Faith and in Angel he told them all ...Dawn and Xander never told anyone about the attempt rape, respecting Buffy wishes.......funny enough neither did Spike

 

[DeadlyDuo]

That's another thing with Spike if he loved Buffy, he would have respected her wish not to tell her friends about them letting Buffy tell them when and if she wished. not blurted it out as he did, later in season seven he told Faith and in Angel he told them all ...Dawn and Xander never told anyone about the attempt rape, respecting Buffy wishes.......funny enough neither did Spike

When Xander turned up during the episode where Buffy turned invisible, Spike was trying to lie about "naked exercising" (because Buffy wants to keep their trysts secret) whilst Buffy was nibbling his ear and doing something else to him, so much so that Spike tries to move her away. Buffy wasn't exactly being subtle there, she liked that she could get away with it in full view of Xander because she couldn't be seen. It's not like Spike randomly tapped Xander on the shoulder and said "Hey Xander, I've been screwing Buffy!"

When Spike does reveal he's been sleeping with Buffy, it's in response to Xander demonstrating disgust that Anya would sleep with Spike, calling Spike "a thing". Spike complained to Anya early that episode how everyone treats him as "a thing" rather than a person.

 

[Dora]

Again Buffy was not being Buffy she knew Xander could not see her and was teasing Spike making him uncomfortable and Xander had unknowingly stop the sexual assault on Buffy in the morning. What happened between Xander and Spike had nothing to do with Buffy she was only got there in time to save Spikes life and how did he repay her,blabbing about their secret .As for treating him as a thing ,to use Spikes own words hello Demon ....he was a thing.Did not Spike say to Buffy, but you treat me like a man its a pity Spike could not treat Buffy as a woman a mentally ill woman but then again he was a evil vampire

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Again Buffy was not being Buffy she knew Xander could not see her and was teasing Spike making him uncomfortable

Buffy was responsible for her own actions in season 6. In that very same scene, after Xander left, Spike called her out on her behaviour and Buffy's response was to do something to Spike (and it's very strongly implied to be a blowjob given the fact that Spike is stood upright and looking down, plus in season 7 on Buffy's date with Wood, when he feeds her the chocolate cake and she says it's the best thing she's ever had in her mouth, it cuts to Spike stood there).

Just because Spike's a vampire doesn't mean he should be treated like a thing. He's worked alongside the scoobies for several seasons, he helped them in the fight against Glory, he allowed himself to be tortured in the name of protecting Dawn. Spike has earned himself some respect from the scoobies, that doesn't mean they have to like him but they could at least treat him as a person.

Clem is a demon and everyone treats him as a person, Buffy gives him a hug in season 7.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Just because Spike's a vampire doesn't mean he should be treated like a thing.

Every other vampire is treated like that. What makes him so special? And what makes them not special enough to deserve the same treatment?

He's worked alongside the scoobies for several seasons, he helped them in the fight against Glory, he allowed himself to be tortured in the name of protecting Dawn.

He's worked with them for utterly selfish reasons. And he endured the torture because he knew a) if he told he would immediately be killed and b) Buffy would come for the other person who was there which would also save him.

Spike has earned himself some respect from the scoobies,

Why? Because he sometimes did something for his benefit that also turned out to be good for someone else?

that doesn't mean they have to like him but they could at least treat him as a person.

He's not a person, he's a demon. I know they tried to humanize him to ridiculous degrees (same with a lot of demons) but he's still just a demon as per the mythology.

Clem is a demon and everyone treats him as a person, Buffy gives him a hug in season 7.

The de-demonization all around to justify Spike and Anya being part of the group. Which is why you can have a slayer in a room with demons who kill humans daily playing charade (see 'Hell's Bells'). It's utterly bonkers. Someone clearly forgot what this show used to be about. Or what demons used to be, for that matter.