If Spike had just kept quiet . . .

[Priceless]

Just re-watched Wrecked and in the scene where Spike pulls Buffy onto his lap and they begin fooling around, Buffy seems very into it until Spike ruins it by saying 'I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer . . . ' This really upsets Buffy, understandably. But what if he'd just kept his mouth shut and said nothing at that moment, would things have been different between them, or do you think their relationship would have taken the same path?

 

[Stoney]

I think it would have gone down the same path. The issues that Buffy was dealing with had her acting in a self destructive way and entering into the relationship with Spike was fundamentally a negative thing for her. As she says when she ends it, it was killing her, she was using him to feel something but also to hurt herself. Spike was finding his limitations during the season after being somewhat accepted in S5 and meeting his expectations of himself by keeping his promise to protect Dawn after Buffy's death, he thought he could walk the line and draw Buffy to him. But it was drawing her towards the dark not truly managing his nature against his wish to be with her and a part of her life. When he eventually let himself down and hurt her, attacked her, he finally realised he couldn't be monster and man. None of any of that would have played differently if he hadn't said such a crude comment in that moment in Wrecked imo. Buffy's depression and Spike's limitations soulless were fundamentally already in play.

 

[Priceless]

I think it would have gone down the same path. The issues that Buffy was dealing with had her acting in a self destructive way and entering into the relationship with Spike was fundamentally a negative thing for her. As she says when she ends it, it was killing her, she was using him to feel something but also to hurt herself. Spike was finding his limitations during the season after being somewhat accepted in S5 and meeting his expectations of himself by keeping his promise to protect Dawn after Buffy's death, he thought he could walk the line and draw Buffy to him. But it was drawing her towards the dark not truly managing his nature against his wish to be with her and a part of her life. When he eventually let himself down and hurt her, attacked her, he finally realised he couldn't be monster and man. None of any of that would have played differently if he hadn't said such a crude comment in that moment in Wrecked imo. Buffy's depression and Spike's limitations soulless were fundamentally already in play.

I also think I am probably wanting Spike to act more Angel-esque and be the strong silent type, which he isn't. They were both just being themselves and they weren't meant to work. But I think that if Spike had kept quiet and Buffy had made the cool, daytime decision to sleep with him, it would have given her a different persepective on their relationship.

 

[Stoney]

They were very drawn to each other both physically and in their personalities and S6 was certainly Buffy finally succumbing to that rather than keeping him at a distance. The early episodes of the season are great for showing the inherent connection and how easy and relaxed they could be. But without the full breadth of emotion and empathy that comes with the soul, even if Buffy hadn't been depressed (although how/why she would have gotten into something so doomed if she wasn't I don't know), it would have failed. I don't think it is a perspective issue personally, unsouled Spike was going to let himself down eventually. How they were then able to emotionally support and strengthen each other in S7 follows the mutually abusive times of S6 so well to show exactly what difference it makes. 😀

 

[Priceless]

One moment, one word, one sentence, one action can change everything. The show worked out the way it was meant to, and I loved S6 and S7 Spuffy, but if Spike had just kept quiet and kept Buffy in that house for a few hours longer, she might have opened up to him and he to her and their connection could have become something more that just sex/depression. But I do understand that without a soul Spike couldn't be the comforter/analyst/realist Buffy needed.

 

[Stoney]

I think it already was something more than just sex/depression and the earlier episodes showed that they had a genuine connection. Although I take your point that small changes can have larger affects I think there is just that limitation issue and their relationship couldn't have ever been healthy without Spike becoming souled. If you just consider the empathy issue, Spike didn't care about all the people he had hurt/killed before he became souled and then in Never Leave Me you see how affected and broken up he is about it. Even if Buffy had had a different perspective about their early sexual relationship this kind of 'lack' would eventually have caused problems or led him to make a bad decision, as it in fact did. Spike likes to break the mould and not follow the rules. He defied his nature in many respects, but there was a limit with that missing emotional understanding/capacity. It would always have caused a problem imo.

Having said that, I find fanfics that want to change the verse truth about souls far better and easier to go with if the negative sexual relationship and AR didn't happen. Once that is on the page I don't think 'souls aren't needed' works. I still think the show goes the way it should and is better for consistency on the soul issue, but I take your point in looking at drawing the line at that moment. 🙂

 

[GoSpuffy]

I like the story as it stands but I would have also enjoyed a story where Spike didn't need a soul and Buffy's soul was enough for both of them. I think it was enough that Spike had a heart. But I agree with @Stoney that it would have led to different problems.

 

[Mr Trick]

No, I don't really see how one moment can chnage the overall thing. I mean it was a crude remark from Spike so I can see why Buffy was upset. But then the tone of the whole relationship during S6 seems to be that very dirty, crude feel to it. In the end that is why Buffy pulled away because she felt it is wrong to just use Spike for that.

 

[Priceless]

No, I don't really see how one moment can chnage the overall thing. I mean it was a crude remark from Spike so I can see why Buffy was upset. But then the tone of the whole relationship during S6 seems to be that very dirty, crude feel to it. In the end that is why Buffy pulled away because she felt it is wrong to just use Spike for that.

The story went the way it had to, I understand that is what the writers had planned. But they could have taken it in a different direction, and that moment in the wrecked house in the morning could have been a turning point. It could have been the story of a soulless vampire saving a slayer from herself (which I guess in many ways it was). I know it's a cliches, but one moment can change anything, for good or bad, even one throwaway comment

 

[cryptwarmer]

Buffy had already taken their "relationship" down that road. Spike had been encouraged by the two previous kisses. He thought they meant something emotional. She denied it. He was pissed off and initiated a fight with her, she took advantage of the anger, frustration and violence to initiate a physical relationship that was angry, frustrating and violent.

That was what she wanted with him, and since it was all he was going to get, it's what he gave her.

His comment was 100% Spike, and the way she took it was as a confirmation to what she had already decided was going to be the tone of their relationship.

Had she wanted things to be friendly and playful, she could easily have interpreted the comment differently, and would have. People make "crude" comments to their lovers in the heat of the moment, or afterglow, and it's part of the fun. A vampire saying that to his Slayer lover is a compliment, not an insult, and he clearly didn't mean it as an insult.

Buffy set the parameters of the relationship. She initiated every previous kiss, and jumped his bones in the crumbling house. An offhand comment by him the morning after wasn't going to change everything.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Buffy had already taken their "relationship" down that road. Spike had been encouraged by the two previous kisses. He thought they meant something emotional. She denied it. He was pissed off and initiated a fight with her, she took advantage of the anger, frustration and violence to initiate a physical relationship that was angry, frustrating and violent.

That was what she wanted with him, and since it was all he was going to get, it's what he gave her.

His comment was 100% Spike, and the way she took it was as a confirmation to what she had already decided was going to be the tone of their relationship.

Had she wanted things to be friendly and playful, she could easily have interpreted the comment differently, and would have. People make "crude" comments to their lovers in the heat of the moment, or afterglow, and it's part of the fun. A vampire saying that to his Slayer lover is a compliment, not an insult, and he clearly didn't mean it as an insult.

Buffy set the parameters of the relationship. She initiated every previous kiss, and jumped his bones in the crumbling house. An offhand comment by him the morning after wasn't going to change everything.

I just have to say this is a terrific post. Your analysis is spot-on.

 

[Fuffy]

I don't think that it would have made much of a difference if Spike kept his mouth shut as their relationship in season 6 was one sided (Buffy only had sex with Spike because she wanted to feel something).