If Vamp Willow stayed, would they let her join the Scooby Gang?

[Evil Angelus 95]

That might be true. It would depend on just how specific the spell actually is, which, of course, we don't know. Obviously, it isn't all that common a thing to do, or there would have been other vampires cursed with souls, which, apparently, there never were. Still, with Angel's spell as an example, it should be easier to tailor one to fit this situation.

Then again, this is a totally different situation, since it would involve installing the soul of one person (human Willow) into the body of a totally different person (Vamp Willow). Angel's spell is totally different.

Maybe they could somehow get to Pandora and convince a Na'vi shaman to hook Willow and Vamp Willow up to the Tree Of Souls and do the transfer that way.

(If I mentioned Ras Thavis and a brain transfer, would anyone here know who or what I was talking about?)

Would it be that hard? I mean, Vamp!Willow is basically the same person as normal Willow, it's just that she's from a different realm, and she's a vampire. Other than that, she was, for all we know, the same exact Willow we saw in "Welcome To The Hellmouth"

 

[white avenger]

Would it be that hard? I mean, Vamp!Willow is basically the same person as normal Willow, it's just that she's from a different realm, and she's a vampire. Other than that, she was, for all we know, the same exact Willow we saw in "Welcome To The Hellmouth"

You may be right, but I still have my doubts. How can two separate beings from two separate realities, one human. the other vampire be the "same person?" Even if they did actually start out as nearly identical as two people could be, at some point, one was killed and resurrected as a vampire, that vampire thing is definitely gonna have to be a factor to be recognized, dealt with, and resolved. That's gonna have to add to the difficulty in creating and executing a proper spell.

Not impossible, but not a simple, straightforward body swap, either.

 

[bespangeled]

I agree, but Willow is the only one in the world with the spell - if Tara had have been vamped then she would now be toting a soul.

Also, how many people die from mystical deaths, but Willow doesn't try to resurrect any of them - just because it's possible doesn't mean that she would.

On topic, no that's absurd, she's an evil vampire - and a powerful one at that, so keeping her alive would have been stupidly irresponsibile.

Oddly enough, I forgot that she would keep her magic.....oh, that does add a whole new level of risk. This would be Dark!Willow, at least at first. She could take out the whole town for fun. Bored now.....

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------

This would have been an interesting route to take, had the writers decided to go down that road.

What about Giles? I think it's well within the realm of possibility that he could have cast a Soul Restoration spell. The only thing is that it would have taken time. The Restoration spell Willow used on Angel was specifically written for him. So Giles would have had to spend the time necessary to writing a new spell for Willow.

Imagine how conflicted everything within the Scooby Gang would have been. Buffy would have not known exactly how to feel about Willow being a vampire, especially one like Angel. What do you do when your best friend is the thing you're supposed to be dusting every night? Xander, in my own opinion, probably would have been the most comforting to Willow, short of Oz. Oz quite possibly would have accepted Willow regardless of her newfound vampire status. And Giles and Angel more than likely would taken a mentoring role for Willow, more so in Angel's regard.

I seriously need to write this fanfic...*Scurries off to notebook*

Wouldn't Willow be more like Angelus than Angel? Gonna have to come up with that one for the story. Also - we have seen Vamp!Willow. How much would she be like the other universe Willow?

And post a link when you are finished writing!🙂

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

Wouldn't Willow be more like Angelus than Angel? Gonna have to come up with that one for the story. Also - we have seen Vamp!Willow. How much would she be like the other universe Willow?

And post a link when you are finished writing!🙂

Well, if Willow has a soul (Which she definitely would have in this), I could really see her latching onto Angel because he's obviously suffered some of the things she would be going through. Willow probably wouldn't have killed anyone, but maybe during the process through which her soul went into her doppelganger's body, she inherited the other Willow's memories while also retaining her own. That would leave a lot of guilt, even though it wasn't any direct fault of her own.

Well, basically, imagine Season 3 Willow in Vampire Willow's body. Factor in some kinda shared things between Angel, and there you have it.

I will be sure to do so. I just have to get off my lazy butt and write it 😛

 

[bespangeled]

Well, if Willow has a soul (Which she definitely would have in this), I could really see her latching onto Angel because he's obviously suffered some of the things she would be going through. Willow probably wouldn't have killed anyone, but maybe during the process through which her soul went into her doppelganger's body, she inherited the other Willow's memories while also retaining her own. That would leave a lot of guilt, even though it wasn't any direct fault of her own.

Well, basically, imagine Season 3 Willow in Vampire Willow's body. Factor in some kinda shared things between Angel, and there you have it.

I will be sure to do so. I just have to get off my lazy butt and write it 😛

You know if Angel turned her (to save her) then you could deal with the Lawson question. Does being bit by a souled vampire come with a soul? Bring back snarky, evil unchipped Spike to be the devil on her other shoulder, so she can have some inner conflict. YMMV - you just got my writer juices churned up.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

You know if Angel turned her (to save her) then you could deal with the Lawson question. Does being bit by a souled vampire come with a soul? Bring back snarky, evil unchipped Spike to be the devil on her other shoulder, so she can have some inner conflict. YMMV - you just got my writer juices churned up.

The Lawson question? Forgive me if I don't recognize the reference. It's really late here XD

Very true. Since I would be setting this towards the end of Season 3 and probably into Season 4, Spike returning would work nicely with that. (Hope you don't mind if I pinch that idea for the fic 😉 )

 

[bespangeled]

The Lawson question? Forgive me if I don't recognize the reference. It's really late here XD

Very true. Since I would be setting this towards the end of Season 3 and probably into Season 4, Spike returning would work nicely with that. (Hope you don't mind if I pinch that idea for the fic 😉 )

It's from AtS - Lawson was the only person Angel changed after he was souled and he came back to see his sire. He asked if he had a soul, and Angel said he didn't think it worked that way - but he was affected. It's Why We Fight. The script would be at Whedonverse, even if you can't watch the ep.

When I throw out an idea to someone I am begging them to use it! 😀

I don't write much at this time in my life but I still think in stories. To me there are no plot holes, only stories waiting to be born.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

It's from AtS - Lawson was the only person Angel changed after he was souled and he came back to see his sire. He asked if he had a soul, and Angel said he didn't think it worked that way - but he was affected. It's Why We Fight. The script would be at Whedonverse, even if you can't watch the ep.

---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------



When I throw out an idea to someone I am begging them to use it! 😀

I don't write much at this time in my life but I still think in stories. To me there are no plot holes, only stories waiting to be born.

Ah, I remember now. I'm not as good with remembering things from Angel as I am with Buffy. I recall that episode now.

That definitely would make sense.

 

[bespangeled]

Ah, I remember now. I'm not as good with remembering things from Angel as I am with Buffy. I recall that episode now.

That definitely would make sense.

Lawson says that he killed, raped, pillaged but through it all he never felt a thing. That leads me to believe that he was affected. I wonder if after he dusted him, if Angel ever regretted not finding out that Lawson was different. Maybe he was at least partially souled and could have been different. Now he has vamp!Willow, and it's time to try again.

Oooh - I love this. Write!!

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

I definitely will do so as soon as I can ^^

 

[WillowTaraHolic]

(I wonder how the Willow/Tara relationship would have worked out, though, with Vamp Willow knowing in advance about the curse and the consequences)

Ah, sorry, needed to reply to that.

From all your replies, I'm assuming that we're talking about just regular Willow as a vamp instead of having normal Willow and Vamp!Willow running around?

If that's the case, then I don't think Tara and Willow would have ever met because of these reasons: 1) A vampire wouldn't attend college, 2) A vamp wouldn't be interested in magick, and 3) There was daylight in the room of the Wicca meeting... Willow would've burned out right then and there.

Plus, I don't think Tara would have a relationship with a vampire.

If that's not the case, and there are two Willows running around, Tara would just have to deal with the evil (Even with a soul, she's still evil. 😛) doppelganger of Willow.

My thoughts on keeping Vamp!Willow as part of the gang: They would never do that. Buffy would stake Vamp!Willow in half a second. Though no one can resist the what-ifs about it. I would be all in for it, cuz personally I find Vamp!Willow hilarious! (Alyson did a great job with her)

@ EvilAngelus: Yus, let the fanfiction begin!

 

[white avenger]

Ah, sorry, needed to reply to that.

From all your replies, I'm assuming that we're talking about just regular Willow as a vamp instead of having normal Willow and Vamp!Willow running around?

Actually, I was responding to this question that was asked later in the discussion by Thetopher: (sorry, I don't know how to credit the post to the author properly)


"I more interesting question is: If vamp-Willow was still around, and Willow was dead somehow, could they have ensouled vamp-Willow with 'their' Willow's soul?"

That would involve, basically, joining Willow's personality and soul with Vamp Willow's body. Sorry about the confusion.

And as for Vamp Willow and Tara meeting, I was assuming that it would be in some night activity or the library, even off campus somewhere. They actually met at the Wicca Club gathering (there's no reason why Willow wouldn't retain her interest in magic. She might be searching for a spell that would turn her human once more) which was after class, probably in the evening, and not exclusively for college students, and then when Tara came to see Willow about working a spell while the Gentlemen were in town. Tara could just as easily gone to Vamp Willow's apartment off campus as to a dormitory room.

It might make an interesting story, with Tara only finding out about Willow's undead status either during or after the Gentlemen attacked them (they would have been coming for Tara's heart, since Willow's would be useless to them) and Willow would save her, revealing her undead status. Tara would be torn between fear and gratitude, revulsion and attraction...

 

[WillowTaraHolic]

Actually, I was responding to this question that was asked later in the discussion by Thetopher: (sorry, I don't know how to credit the post to the author properly)


"I more interesting question is: If vamp-Willow was still around, and Willow was dead somehow, could they have ensouled vamp-Willow with 'their' Willow's soul?"

That would involve, basically, joining Willow's personality and soul with Vamp Willow's body. Sorry about the confusion.

And as for Vamp Willow and Tara meeting, I was assuming that it would be in some night activity or the library, even off campus somewhere. They actually met at the Wicca Club gathering (there's no reason why Willow wouldn't retain her interest in magic. She might be searching for a spell that would turn her human once more) which was after class, probably in the evening, and not exclusively for college students, and then when Tara came to see Willow about working a spell while the Gentlemen were in town. Tara could just as easily gone to Vamp Willow's apartment off campus as to a dormitory room.

It might make an interesting story, with Tara only finding out about Willow's undead status either during or after the Gentlemen attacked them (they would have been coming for Tara's heart, since Willow's would be useless to them) and Willow would save her, revealing her undead status. Tara would be torn between fear and gratitude, revulsion and attraction...

Actually, that sounds really awesome. I would watch that.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Lets have a look at this, Willow and vampy Willow together as friends, what lovely thought.
If they both dressed up in that leather and lace outfit that vampy Willow wore, do you know how to tell them apart, Willow is the one who does says,"Ooh look at them."
Why did none of the vamps get packet human blood, I dare say Willow would have helped vampy Willow get packets of blood.
And what if they got picked up by the law, they'd both have exactly the same details.
Who's to say vampy Willow didn't have a soul? Who sired her? cos The Master had a soul.
If vampy Willow wanted to go to college I dare say she could have. It isn't that hard to fake the documents and with Willow on her side anything is possible.
If vampy Willow wanted to do magic, she could have, it would have been her choice. Mind you if they both joined the Wicca club I bet they would have had some fun. (evening meetings only).
Then there's the whole soul thing.
Them gypsy's were said to have put a curse on Angelus to give him his soul back. I don't think it was a curse, as such. Angelus killed the girl, not them so the spell was a vengeance spell.
What does a soul do to a vampire, does it cause them to remember all their kills or does enable them to remember all their kills if they want to? Did Angel or Spike behave like they remember all of their kills all the time?

And would vampy Willow have wanted to join the scoobies, I doubt that very much.

 

[bespangeled]

Ah, sorry, needed to reply to that.

From all your replies, I'm assuming that we're talking about just regular Willow as a vamp instead of having normal Willow and Vamp!Willow running around?

If that's the case, then I don't think Tara and Willow would have ever met because of these reasons: 1) A vampire wouldn't attend college, 2) A vamp wouldn't be interested in magick, and 3) There was daylight in the room of the Wicca meeting... Willow would've burned out right then and there.

Plus, I don't think Tara would have a relationship with a vampire.

If that's not the case, and there are two Willows running around, Tara would just have to deal with the evil (Even with a soul, she's still evil. 😛) doppelganger of Willow.

My thoughts on keeping Vamp!Willow as part of the gang: They would never do that. Buffy would stake Vamp!Willow in half a second. Though no one can resist the what-ifs about it. I would be all in for it, cuz personally I find Vamp!Willow hilarious! (Alyson did a great job with her)

@ EvilAngelus: Yus, let the fanfiction begin!

Didn't both Spike and Dru do some magic and season 2? Magic is probably two much work for the average vampire, I agree. But if Willow gets vamped and still retains her personality I can't see her dropping magic.

In fact, that could be part of the show - Tillow looking for a magical remedy. 🙂

---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

Lets have a look at this, Willow and vampy Willow together as friends, what lovely thought.
If they both dressed up in that leather and lace outfit that vampy Willow wore, do you know how to tell them apart, Willow is the one who does says,"Ooh look at them."
Why did none of the vamps get packet human blood, I dare say Willow would have helped vampy Willow get packets of blood.
And what if they got picked up by the law, they'd both have exactly the same details.
Who's to say vampy Willow didn't have a soul? Who sired her? cos The Master had a soul.
If vampy Willow wanted to go to college I dare say she could have. It isn't that hard to fake the documents and with Willow on her side anything is possible.
If vampy Willow wanted to do magic, she could have, it would have been her choice. Mind you if they both joined the Wicca club I bet they would have had some fun. (evening meetings only).
Then there's the whole soul thing.
Them gypsy's were said to have put a curse on Angelus to give him his soul back. I don't think it was a curse, as such. Angelus killed the girl, not them so the spell was a vengeance spell.
What does a soul do to a vampire, does it cause them to remember all their kills or does enable them to remember all their kills if they want to? Did Angel or Spike behave like they remember all of their kills all the time?

And would vampy Willow have wanted to join the scoobies, I doubt that very much.

Huh? The Master had a soul - fill me in, please. What an interesting detail!

I don't think Spike or Angel ever forgot about their victims even when they weren't actually remembering them.

 

[thetopher]

There's plenty of evidence that Vampires can do magic when the mood takes them: The Master got caught because he was doing a MAGIC RITUAL on the Hellmouth and it went wrong.
Spike and Dru performed that spell to reinvigorate Dru (though it seemed like a pre-planned ritual, with intructions and everything) and even Angel performed complex spells (trying to destroy the glove of...mimi-golf?, trying to cast out the ghost from Cordelia's place, and when that boy is possessed by the Eithros demon)

Vampires can do magic, but obviously it doesn't come naturally to them- just like its rare for demons to do it, but some can do it. (like that Toth dude from S5)

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I'd have thought magic would come more naturally to demons than humans. Magic is supernatural, a demon is a supernatural being but a human isn't. So from that point of view magic would be natural to a demon.

 

[Xin Rong]

I'd have thought magic would come more naturally to demons than humans. Magic is supernatural, a demon is a supernatural being but a human isn't. So from that point of view magic would be natural to a demon.

I dunno if I agree with the term supernatural in reference to magic, or even demons for that matter, within the world of Buffy . In the buffyverse there's nothing especially supernatural about magic or demons for that matter, as they are natural occurences and have been around longer than what we, as humans, would deem as natural.

Demons and magic aren't therefore connected by their supernaturalness.

Personally, it seems to me that neither demons/humans have a predisposition to magic, it seems more likely that it's more of a a naturally occurring talent, just like intelligence is. A person can study and work as much as they want but if they don't have some level of natural intellegence they're always going to be limited - and the same seems to be the case with magic.

Also, we have seen that magic seems to be somewhat sentient so maybe the force behind magic chooses those who will have an affinity for it.

---------- Post added at 03:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

The Glove of Mitigon? though I've yet to discover where the glove of Miti has gone, and I've no idea who or what Miti is either

I may be wrong, but I think mitigon is an italian slang term for americans?

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Xin Rong, I wasn't aware that the glove of Mitigon was an Italian artefact.
How does a person become a vampire? I don't think it is a natural act that creates that vampire.
When Darla was made a vampire by Drusilla that was within a humans life time, not as you put it, 'as they are natural occurances and have been around longer than us'.
How the first vampire was created I don't know, although it seems you do. Would you care to enlighten me please.
Magic when done by thought could be termed as somewhat natural, as is 'faith healing' when physical contact is made with the earth to do it. But a spell tends to make use of non natural items and artefacts.
Magic comes in many forms some forms maybe from a natural occurance (Willow and Amy in the night club). In 'Witch' when Giles does the spell to free Buffy from the effects of the spell he used non natural items in order to perform the magic. And as it was a non natural act it could be placed in the realms of the supernatural.

'Demons and magic aren't therefore connected by their supernaturalness'.
I never said they were, even if demons and magic are supernatural it doesn't mean they are connected. When something is deemed supernatural it simply means it/they
cannot be explained by science.

'Personally, it seems to me that neither demons/humans have a predisposition to magic'
It depends on the magic being used, when Willow made the pencil spin about in the air, that was done purely by thought, so it would seem that Willow had a predisposition to do that.
You need to understand what magic is, for starters it isn't just one thing. Magic the term, is an 'umbrella' term for many occurances that are magical. Magic like witchcraft is the ability to do the impossible.
Willow was of a predisposition to do some forms of magic but she was not of a predisposition to all forms of magic.

 

[Xin Rong]

Xin Rong, I wasn't aware that the glove of Mitigon was an Italian artefact.
How does a person become a vampire? I don't think it is a natural act that creates that vampire.
When Darla was made a vampire by Drusilla that was within a humans life time, not as you put it, 'as they are natural occurances and have been around longer than us'.
How the first vampire was created I don't know, although it seems you do. Would you care to enlighten me please.
Magic when done by thought could be termed as somewhat natural, as is 'faith healing' when physical contact is made with the earth to do it. But a spell tends to make use of non natural items and artefacts.
Magic comes in many forms some forms maybe from a natural occurance (Willow and Amy in the night club). In 'Witch' when Giles does the spell to free Buffy from the effects of the spell he used non natural items in order to perform the magic. And as it was a non natural act it could be placed in the realms of the supernatural.

'Demons and magic aren't therefore connected by their supernaturalness'.
I never said they were, even if demons and magic are supernatural it doesn't mean they are connected. When something is deemed supernatural it simply means it/they
cannot be explained by science.

'Personally, it seems to me that neither demons/humans have a predisposition to magic'
It depends on the magic being used, when Willow made the pencil spin about in the air, that was done purely by thought, so it would seem that Willow had a predisposition to do that.
You need to understand what magic is, for starters it isn't just one thing. Magic the term, is an 'umbrella' term for many occurances that are magical. Magic like witchcraft is the ability to do the impossible.
Willow was of a predisposition to do some forms of magic but she was not of a predisposition to all forms of magic.

The first vampire was created by an old one mixing their blood with a human when demons where banished/sent to the old well, or something like that. So the supernatural predates humans, they're only supernatural from our perspective. This is something that is mentioneda lot in the show, so it's not just me, it's in the text. If you want to be enlightened watch the show, because it's there!

You did seem to be suggesting that because demons and magic were supernatural then the former should be better at the latter, so I don't understand your offense at that?

when something is supernatural, it means more than natural, the concept of the supernatural predates science as we know it. Demons and magic predate and coexist with the term, which means in the buffyverse the term is flawed.

Magic rituals seem to have have the ability to be performed by anyone, but we never see people who do these rituals perfom their own magic, i.e. Giles/Angel etc. never spin a pencil.