If we met Angelus first

[Aloverssoulz]

I just posted in the Angel vs. Spike topic and choose Angel over Spike because I feel Spike's character went to crap when they added the chip to his head.

It made me think though. I am not a big fan of post-season 3 Spike because he's so different to what we saw in the past two seasons. So what if we met Angelus before we met Angel?

Just say Angelus shows up in Sunnydale after he heard of Darla and the Master being staked by Buffy. Over the season Angelus get's into Buffy's head (though differently than he really did, cause they weren't dating before hand).

Add to the fact that Dru isn't hurt because the mob (or whoever hurt her so badly) didn't get a chance to do so because she was with both Angelus and Spike. Also, Spike wouldn't be left in a wheelchair after his fights alone with Buffy. So that's all three of them in perfect health out to kill her.

Knowing Buffy is unable to kill them all Jenny and Willow come up with a plan to give Angelus a soul. It works. Spike and Dru get out of town and Angelus is left as Angel feeling awful for what he done. Over the next few seasons we see Angel became how he was in later ANGEL seasons. Would you still like him as much as you do already or would you feel that seeing the badass Angelus turned into Angel would ruin everything he was like how I feel with Spike and the chip?

 

[nightshade]

I wouldn't have liked it, I would have enjoyed seeing Angelus, but not after being souled.

 

[dan k]

Having Angel turn into Angelus was so impactful. At the time it was shocking. To see Buffy's world fall apart was so emotional for you as the viewer. If things had gone the other way round I don't think it would have had the same effect. Seeing someone in pain is arguably more effective in a television show than seeing someone happy. I don't think Angelus gaining a soul would have provided that "Oh my god" moment which we saw when Angel turned into Angelus.

 

[VisionGirl]

I think it would've been interesting, but to have missed the star-crossed lovers/vampire in love with a slayer storyline? No way!! Angelus was awesomely bad on his own but adding to that the fact that he used to love Buffy & therefore can truly torture her now was brilliant. As Doyle said: "Yeah well it's a fairly dull tale. It needs a little sex is my feelin'."

 

[LoveLoveLovix]

I think I would have liked him better. I didn't like Angel much in Buffy (though he's my favorite character in Angel). However, I think actors are normally better when they're evil, and it gives characters more depth... hmmm, I'm really bad at phrasing this, but I like it when characters are evil because it shows their motivations, their passion, pretty much what a human soul (or, well, vampire lack of soul... maybe I should say personality?) is without a moral compass- if we didn't have to think about others... what would we be?

And then adding that compass adds this overwhelming sense of responsibility. Anyone who acts knows that there are moments when you can become that character if you've been in the role long enough. David Boreanez hadn't been in the role long enough to portray the guilt... if the character was all fun and evil at first, the guilt and depth could have develouped instead of being there, all mysterious and cliched.

Okay, did I make sense to anyone besides myself? 😛

 

[KellGreen]

That's a tough one. I like him more before Angel in S1, when he was all mysterious and hanging out in the shadows. Then, well, i don't know. I just didn't really like him much. I didn't watch Angel past about halfway or so of S2 because the plot became too far fetched for my personal taste; however, I loved Angel in S1. His character was written way better in my view, and i would have liked him more if he had been more like that on Buffy. He just always seemed either pathetically lost and sullen or arrogant and presumptive. I also, though, didn't find Angelus very interesting, in that i've already seen the ruthless, heartless, completely devoid of humanity, takes pleasure in torturing brand of villain before. Before the Angel lovers jump on me, let me say again that I really did love him on Angel S1 and i still liked him on the eps after then that i caught (it was the plot after that, not him that turned me off). I liked what Cordy brought out in him, and i think she was very good for him, even just as friends. I think it's mostly due to the writers not knowing where they were going with him at first in S1 Buffy, so his character didn't get as much forethought as it deserved.

 

[Willow My Love]

I feel Spike's character went to crap when they added the chip to his head.

I... I love you! I'm not the ONLY one with that opinion! Yes! *dances*

Would you still like him as much as you do already or would you feel that seeing the badass Angelus turned into Angel would ruin everything he was like how I feel with Spike and the chip?

Hmm. I can see me really liking Angelus if we met him first. And then, if he became how he was in later seasons, I'd still adore him, I think. But my Bangel-shipping heart makes me say that I love the show how it was. 🙂

I love Angel. But I think one of the things I love most is how much time he spent feeling so horrible about what he had done. (And, before it's said, I don't think they glossed over Angel feeling bad about what he did to Buffy. He was in Hell for 100 years...) I love that he seems like he just feels so much.

 

[Marisa]

I like villains but if we had seen Angelus first I bet we would have heard people disliked him the same way he disliked Spike.

I think Angelus may have been either more boring or more interesting. See the thing I disliked about Angel so much on Buffy is that he was basically Buffy's lapdog and didn't really have any character development that didn't involve her except for season two. If he would have been Angelus we would have seen a new side to him. But I fear they would have still made me suffer through Bangel a bit and I would have gotten bored.

The thing is I never saw Spike as not badass. Where as it took Angel his own show to make me see him as badass. I think the difference between the two characters in my mind will always be that Spike was always hilarious and bad and maintained that even when he got a chip and soul. Angel on Buffy needed Angelus to be bad.

 

[Kean]

If Angelus was given a soul in the scenario you described then we wouldn't meet Angel at all. The Angel that we know was the product of the 100 years that came before he met Buffy.

I love Angel's story. I love his struggle. And I'm sure I'd like your proposed version more than Angelus, but I adore Angel's story as it stands.

 

[Abby27]

Also, I think what makes the episode "Angel" in Buffy s1 so good is that moment when you realize Angel was a vampire. I got into the series a couple of years after it ended so I already knew Angel was a vamp, but I bet watching it air for the first time, it must have been awesome! If they had introduced Angel as Angelus, it would have been quite a different story, and not necessarily worse, but it would have lost it's impact I think.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't think it would have worked. One of the charms of Angelus is knowing how much different from Angel he is.. plus, I love S2 storyline, and that would go with the wind.

 

[Hale Caesar]

I liked that we got to see Angel first. The whole "bad guy turns good" idea is kind of boring, it was refreshing to meet Angel first and then learn he was evil later

 

[white avenger]

If Angelus was given a soul in the scenario you described then we wouldn't meet Angel at all. The Angel that we know was the product of the 100 years that came before he met Buffy.

I think that it would be more accurate to say that the Angel we knew was the product of being recruited by Whistler and becoming inspired by Buffy to become a better man. From the flashbacks that we've seen of Angel before he came to Sunnydale, he was basically just a brooding recluse who never interacted with anyone, human or vampire, unless they literally forced themselves into his life, like the girl in the hotel or the Initiative agent during World War 2. Angel as we first saw him on the series was, at most, a few months into being the Angel that we came to know.

 

[Carrrrgh]

I don't think Drusilla can exist in your scenario because she is the reason he was given his soul in the first place. Unless Angel found another love like Buffy prior to Buffy and lost his soul because of "pure happiness" before he even met her. Which would just throw everything off and now I've gone and confused myself 🙁

 

[Kean]

I think that it would be more accurate to say that the Angel we knew was the product of being recruited by Whistler and becoming inspired by Buffy to become a better man. From the flashbacks that we've seen of Angel before he came to Sunnydale, he was basically just a brooding recluse who never interacted with anyone, human or vampire, unless they literally forced themselves into his life, like the girl in the hotel or the Initiative agent during World War 2. Angel as we first saw him on the series was, at most, a few months into being the Angel that we came to know.

I wouldn't agree with that to be honest. I stand by what I said earlier; the hundred years prior to meeting Buffy made him. All of it counts. Him being rejected by Darla because of his soul. Him being rejected by human society because of his demon. That counts. That is part of why he went underground. That is part of why he understands and relates to Buffy (and personally, why I think he is inspired to help her). She was rejected just as he was. She was alone just as he was.

In short, he need to reach those absolute lows to see the worth in what Whistler was showing him. Do you think AYNOHYEB Angel would have looked at Buffy and seen someone he could help? I'm not sure he would have. Not the way Dirt Rat! Angel did.

It all counts.

 

[white avenger]

"Dirt Rat Angel." I like that...

I'm sure that a century of being pretty much isolated from both the vampire species and the human race had its affect on Angel, I'm just not sure that it contributed that much to the mystery man who Buffy met in Sunnydale, unless you're talking about it providing the raw material from which he was made. But as far as actually developing something from that raw material, that didn't really happen until he first saw her. It's hard to actually get an accurate picture of pre-Buffy Angel from the few flashbacks that we saw over the years, especially when most of them concerned Angelus, rather than Angel. Still, my impression was that he used that isolation for nothing more constructive that sitting in an otherwise unoccupied room, brooding over the fact that all that he had to do was sit in an otherwise unoccupied room, brooding. That's not development, that's, at the very best, stasis. It took being dragged out of a filthy alley by Whistler to set up the conditions that would lead to Angel becoming the Angel that Buffy first met. before that, between the time that he finally left or, more likely, was kicked out by Darla, he was just marking time, using his immortality for nothing more than not aging.

Whistler pulled Angel out of the alley, but it was Angel's feelings for Buffy, call it love or obsession, are what pulled him out of that dark room where he had been hiding for the better part of a century. He was, quite literally, nothing before that moment. Not Angelus, and not really Angel. Just something that Darla discarded.

 

[Kean]

He was, quite literally, nothing before that moment.

Angel was everything before that moment. In those hundred years, Angel experienced the entire range of human emotion and capability.

He was lost, hopeless, hopeful, proud, lonely, bitter, guilty, and remorseful.

He was distrustful and cynical.

He felt betrayal and hurt. Disgust and disgrace.

Shame.

Revenge.

But even still, he found joy in music. Even found a smile for it. And not just any smile but a goofy, silly happy grin.

Up until the 70s he took pride in his appearance. He had a sense of self and worth.

And then that avalanche of revoltion swept him away all over again when he fed off that dead body.

Buffy reminded him what he could be. She didn't make him it. He decided to be it.

 

[white avenger]

Angel was everything before that moment. In those hundred years, Angel experienced the entire range of human emotion and capability.

He was lost, hopeless, hopeful, proud, lonely, bitter, guilty, and remorseful.

He was distrustful and cynical.

He felt betrayal and hurt. Disgust and disgrace.

Shame.

Revenge.

But even still, he found joy in music. Even found a smile for it. And not just any smile but a goofy, silly happy grin.

Up until the 70s he took pride in his appearance. He had a sense of self and worth.

And then that avalanche of revoltion swept him away all over again when he fed off that dead body.

Buffy reminded him what he could be. She didn't make him it. He decided to be it.

Maybe you saw that in the few flashbacks that we saw in 3 years on "Buffy" and 5 years on his own show, but I must have been downstairs popping popcorn at those times, because I just plain don't remember all of that. If you have a list of the episodes where all of that was revealed, I would be grateful to see it. I know that we have the one episode, "Why We Fight," about a very reluctant Angel being drafted by the Initiative to help recover a submarine during WW2, and there was the one about the evil spirit in the Hyperion back in the 50's, but beyond that, and a few short scenes in other episodes,we saw much more about Angelus than we did about Angel. Even in the shared dream that Angel and Faith had, it was Angelus who hot all the good lines.

(And, no, that is not sarcasm. I know that I have seen a lot of the admirable things about a certain other vampire that you obviously missed.)

 

[Kean]

Maybe you saw that in the few flashbacks that we saw in 3 years on "Buffy" and 5 years on his own show, but I must have been downstairs popping popcorn at those times, because I just plain don't remember all of that. If you have a list of the episodes where all of that was revealed, I would be grateful to see it. I know that we have the one episode, "Why We Fight," about a very reluctant Angel being drafted by the Initiative to help recover a submarine during WW2, and there was the one about the evil spirit in the Hyperion back in the 50's, but beyond that, and a few short scenes in other episodes,we saw much more about Angelus than we did about Angel. Even in the shared dream that Angel and Faith had, it was Angelus who hot all the good lines.

(And, no, that is not sarcasm. I know that I have seen a lot of the admirable things about a certain other vampire that you obviously missed.)

All of that is what I got from watching the same episodes you did. But like you said, I see Angel in the way you see Spike. Even if I went ep by ep, example by example, you wouldn't see what I see. And quite frankly it would kinda disturb me if you suddenly started liking Angel anyway 😛

 

[white avenger]

And quite frankly it would kinda disturb me if you suddenly started liking Angel anyway 😛

Well, hold onto your hat, Miss K, cause I'm about to give you a revelation.

I DO like Angel. He's always out there, trying (often VERY trying) and if he manages to learn from his mistakes, the guy must be a genius by now. But he always does what he believes is right, almost entirely for the simple reason that it IS the right thing to do. If there is a model of the reluctant here, then Angel is just the opposite. He WANTS to be the hero, the champion, the defender of the weak and the helpless. He wants it because it's what he feels he owes them for all of the evil that he did when he was going by the name of Angelus. He's not a glory seeker. He's a redemption seeker, and I hope that he manages to live long enough to achieve it.

He just needs to get over this delusion about him and Spike's girl being soulmates.