I'm B-a-a-a-ack

[white avenger]

(This has been the subject of a ton of fan fiction, and it might have been discussed here, but I can;t find it)

Joss has said that he will, sometime in the future, use both Angel and Spike in the "Buffy" comics series, so what do you think Buffy's initial reaction will be when she discovers that Spike is, in fact, back, and never bothered to tell her about it?

Personally, I think that she is going to be angry at him for not telling her (his excuse was both lame and contrived), but she is going to be much angrier at Angel for not trying to tell her as soon as he popped up in the Wolfram & Hart building. Angel knew that Buffy had feelings for Spike, whatever they really were, and he chose once more, as he has done so many times in the past, to decide "what is best" for someone else without consulting them about that decision.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Ohhh, I can just imagine her saying
'SPIKE?' and then turning to Angel 'DID YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS??!?' haha
So I think she will probably be a little mad at Spike at first, but she will com around. Maybe even to a comshucking degree, you never know. Which would settle the more important question, lol.

 

[palabravampiress]

Short term? I think she'd make some little Back-from-the-Dead-but-doesn't-write-or-call joke. Also, if Angel's miraculous return is any indication, there might be some hugging. And some awkwardness. Long term? I'm not sure their relationship could ever recover from the I-thought-you-were-dead thing.

Personally, though, I liked the little thing I wrote in the thread about how Angel and Spike would react to Satsu. I think the vamp boys' return might go something like this, especially if Satsu is still around:

Here's how it could go, then:

Spike: "Slayer. 🙂:Slight head nod. :🙂 Slayer Junior."

:: Spike tilts his head and does the funny little smirk/raised eyebrow thing. ::

Spike: "Interesting company you keep there, pet."

Buffy (blushing): "Do NOT look at me like that. I'm serious, Mr. I'm-Back-From-the-Dead-but-Forgot-to-Call!"

Spike: "Yeah, well, I was a little busy, what with being in Hell and all. Monsters to slay. Neighborhoods to co-Lord. You know how it goes. Seems you were a bit on the busy side yourself."

:: Angel's eyes widen as understanding finally dawns. ::

Angel (gasps): "But what about the cookies?!"

:: Everyone turns to look at Angel. ::

:: Angel folds his arms across his chest and mopes (I mean "broods). ::

Angel: "I meant metaphor cookies. It's a thing."

Spike: "I told you we should have locked her in a box."

Buffy: "You *what?*"

Spike and Angel (quickly): "Nothing!"

Drama and angst would eventually ensue, sure. But for the big return? I, personally, am looking for the funny.

 

[Kean]

I think she will be more floored by Angel being human than by Spike not being in hell. Coming back from the dead is old hat for Buffy. I see her with wise cracking and some major punage with Spike. Angel on the other hand (if he stays human) opens up a big can of worms (or cookies) for our Slayer. Sure she has dreamed about Angel being all pulse having but how does she react when she is actually faced with it?

 

[palabravampiress]

^ That's a good point. I had a momentary lapse in memory in which I completely forgot about that particular plot point of the Angel comics. But now that I remember, I'm just not 100% sure that that will still apply once Angel gets out of Hell. He seems to think it isn't the Shanshu, but that it's W&H or somebody screwing with him now because now is when he needs his vamp side most. Besides, his humanity/redemption is what Angel wants most. He pretty much worked toward it for the duration of the entire series. With his luck, history, and personality, I'm betting he'll have to give it up -- trade that piece of his destiny -- in order to get L.A. out of Hell. His plan basically put it there, so I think he'll have to pay the price to get it out. It all seems very Angel-ey to me. I just can't believe that, when tempted with what he wants most, Angel will actually take it and/or get to keep it. Something always keeps happiness just out of reach for him. Angel just wouldn't be Angel if he won his humanity and didn't then turn right around and give it up. This could only happen and be maintained at the very end of Angel's story.

On the off chance that I'm wrong and Joss actually gives Angel humanity, a soul, and some measure of redemption all at the same time and then puts him in the Buffy comics to reunite with the girl (leaving us to find out what Angel is like when he has nothing about which to brood), then I think Angel not being vampified and Spike not being dead (well, or less dead than he was before) will both be pretty shocking moments. I think you're right, though. With Spike, it'll be all quippy and with Angel, it'll be big drama and angst. That's how it always goes with them. As long as Angel and Spike get to have some fun banter between the two of them, though, I'll be happy. Those two crack me up.

You know... I think I've decided that Buffy should be with Xander and that Angel and Spike should annoy one another forever. They are sooo hetero (except for that one time) lifemate material. Of course, if we wanna try a funny threesome in which Angel's never too happy, Spike gets the girl, Buffy doesn't have to choose, and it makes a nice parallel to season 2, then I can climb on board and wait a little longer for my Bander endgame.

 

[Kean]

I genuinely do not know how it will play out. I think Buffy is done with Spike. I don't see her finding out that he is alive and then falling into his arms. She seems past it somehow. Angel-wise, well unless they join forces and make a Super-Scoobies I don't know how that could play out either. I know what i want (as does the rest of BB😉 but like you said PV, Angel NEVER gets the happy.

One thing that keeps popping into my mind is that Joss said that season 9 will take place waaay in the future. To me that suggests are greater endlyness to this part of the Buffyverse which would mean (to me anyway) that questions like "who does she pick" would be answered.

 

[white avenger]

I genuinely do not know how it will play out. I think Buffy is done with Spike. I don't see her finding out that he is alive and then falling into his arms. She seems past it somehow. Angel-wise, well unless they join forces and make a Super-Scoobies I don't know how that could play out either. I know what i want (as does the rest of BB😉 but like you said PV, Angel NEVER gets the happy.

One thing that keeps popping into my mind is that Joss said that season 9 will take place waaay in the future. To me that suggests are greater endlyness to this part of the Buffyverse which would mean (to me anyway) that questions like "who does she pick" would be answered.

Frankly, I think that Buffy is pretty much done with both of them. Since Angel doesn't belong to Dark Horse, it's doubtful that there would be any long term togetherness for them unless both series ended or Dark Horse bought the Angel franchise. As for Spike. unless he somehow returns to Buffy as a regular character, which I also doubt is ever going to happen, I don't see much of a future there.

But I was only asking about the initial face-to-face meeting when Buffy finds out that neither Spike nor Angel thought it important enough to tell her that Spike was back. Whatever the outcome, I honestly believe that Buffy has a right to know what happened.

 

[Kean]

Frankly, I think that Buffy is pretty much done with both of them. Since Angel doesn't belong to Dark Horse, it's doubtful that there would be any long term togetherness for them unless both series ended or Dark Horse bought the Angel franchise. As for Spike. unless he somehow returns to Buffy as a regular character, which I also doubt is ever going to happen, I don't see much of a future there.

But I was only asking about the initial face-to-face meeting when Buffy finds out that neither Spike nor Angel thought it important enough to tell her that Spike was back. Whatever the outcome, I honestly believe that Buffy has a right to know what happened.

I agree that Buffy has a right to know but I don't agree with your earlier point that somhow it was Angel's responsibility to tell her. This one is all an Spike, you can't blame Angel for his cowardice in this situation. Spike bottled it, plain and simple.

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Yeah. I agree with Keanoite. It was Spike's responsibility to tell Buffy he was, umm, unghostified. Angel makes his own fair share of mistakes and I pretty much love to call him on them, but this one's on Spike, not on Angel. Angel can't force Spike to tell Buffy. He can get on the phone and tell Buffy, but that's not Angel's place. The bottom line is that it's not Angel's truth to tell. While we're on the subject of Angel and secret keeping, though... can you say Darla? Connor? Cordy? I'm just saying. He has enough lies of omission that he needs to clear up with the so-called love-of-his-life. There's no need to go putting Spike's screw ups on Angel; he's got enough of his own. Angel can only be held responsible for the choices that he makes. Spike's decision not to tell Buffy is his own not-so-little lie of omission.

To be fair to Spike, he did get kind of sucked into Hell. But that's no excuse. He had plenty of time to tell her before that. I'll give him a little leeway, I guess, since he did seem to want to tell her in person. He did ask for her directly several times in Italy. I mean, I give Angel leeway for not laying all of his junk on Buffy when he popped in to trade baking tips right before the battle to end all battles. That was the only time they'd seen each other in person and the right timing it was not. The same is true of Spike. He did keep getting sidetracked by pretty important things. After Dana, he got his hands chopped off and kinda had to stay and get those fixed. In Destiny, after Angel asked him to leave, he seemed pretty keen on going and finding Buffy, but then he found out that his re-corporealization was causing the universe to unravel, so he stuck around to help re-ravel it. Then, there was the whole final battle and getting sucked into Hell thing. The one time he might have told her (Italy), they kept missing each other (and she wasn't really Buffy). Like Angel, Spike should have told her sooner, but I'm really not coming up with a good "when." I think I'll give them both a little wiggle room.


So, yeah. Both boys have big, shocking things that they need to tell Buffy. Her reaction is really anyone's guess and kind of depends on the circumstances surrounding the big reveal(s). Either way, though, I don't think it's fair to hold Angel responsible for Spike's mistake.

 

[white avenger]

If Angel called himself Buffy's friend, if he believed her when she said that Spike was "in her heart," if he knew that Buffy believed that Spike was dead and was, in any sense, mourning his loss, whether as a lover or a friend, if he knew that Spike wanted to be with her, as he obviously did, since his first conscious thought upon rematerializing was to ask about her and his first act was to try and go to find her, then, yes, as Buffy's friend, it most certainly WAS his responsibility, his duty even, to make every effort to inform her as to his present status. Otherwise, if the truth was ever known, it would look far too much like he was trying to eliminate a competitor for Buffy's "cookies." If he were a friend, he would want Buffy happy, regardless of whether it affected his status of cookie recipient or not. So, yes, I stand by my statement. It most definitely IS a friend's duty to inform someone that he cares about that the man she cared for, who she no doubt believed died for her, is, in fact, back from the dead, as un-dead as when she last saw him. That's what friends do, and that should be what Angel ultimately has to answer for.

 

[palabravampiress]

^ I could see that reasoning if it was someone with whom Angel had no connection, but what about when it's Spike? Shouldn't Angel abide by his decision? He's closely connected to Spike, too, and teamed up with him right now. They're "friends," too. Angel has no right to make that decision for Spike, even if Spike is behaving wrongly by not telling Buffy. Also, by spilling Spike's secrets to Buffy, Angel would become a hypocrite for keeping his own. Honestly, I think the best thing Angel can do is to refrain from interfering and let Spike and Buffy sort out their own issues -- Spike's reanimation being one of them. Angel is too closely connected to both parties. I think it's good that he's respecting them both enough to stay out of it. If you'll recall, Brood Boy has a tendency to make decisions for other people based on his opinion of their own good. I think the fact that Angel is trusting Spike and Buffy to work out their own issues, even if Angel disapproves, shows that Angel is growing.

 

[Kean]

WA I have to say I think you are way off with this one. Not telling Buffy was Spike's decision and his alone. Angel doesn't even come into it. He has no say whatsoever in if, when or how Spike lets Buffy in on his news. Like PV said Angel has his own dirt that still remains brushed under the carpet. If we go by your reasoning then Spike, as Buffy's friend, is the one responsible for not telling Buffy about Darla, Connor, Cordy, the day that wasn't and the war on W&H. Somehow I don't see you agreeing with that.

To me it seems that you have seen a character flaw in Spike that you really don't like and just want to make his cowardice somebody else's fault. Angel is just the easy target.

 

[white avenger]

To me it seems that you have seen a character flaw in Spike that you really don't like and just want to make his cowardice somebody else's fault. Angel is just the easy target.

I see character flaws in all of Joss' characters. That's what makes them believable. And when did Spike become a coward? I've never seen him back down from anything, even the things that he should have. That's why I thought the entire "How can I go back after making such a dramatic exit?" excuse seemed lame and contrived to me. Spike NEVER would have done something like that.

The reason that I believe that Angel should have told, or at least TRIED to tell, Buffy, since we now know that his information as to her whereabouts was inaccurate at best, was that Spike was someone who she genuinely cared about, whose death she felt responsible for, the same as she did all of the deaths in Sunnydale. Angel knew, or at least should have known, that finding out about Spike's return would ease some of that pain, but he chose not to tell her.

When the moment comes, if it ever does, when Buffy discovers that Spike has been back all of this time and Angel knew about it, one of her first questions, to Angel AND Spike, is going to be "Why didn't you tell me?" and I honestly believe that she will hold both equally responsible.

 

[Kean]

The reason that I believe that Angel should have told, or at least TRIED to tell, since we now know that his information as to her whereabouts was inaccurate at best, was that Spike was someone who she genuinely cared about, whose death she felt responsible for, the same as she did all of the deaths in Sunnydale. Angel knew that finding out about Spike's return would ease some of that pain, but he chose not to tell her.

When was it ever said or even insinuated that Buffy felt guilty or responsibile for Spike's death. We are missing a huge chunk of history between Chosen and S8. Any assumption you make about Buffy's state of mind is just that, an assumption. She may have been a total wreck,but then again she could have cared less. We don't know at all.

I'm struggling to understand how it is Ange's responsibility. It's one thing to think that Buffy would be pissed at him but anther entirely to believe he actually did something wrong by not telling her. Spike is a fully grown vampire for God's sake. I don't see how this isn't his choice.

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Sidenote: In FFL, when Spike sits on the porch and comforts Buffy, I got a look at his boots. And guess what? He wears lifts, that's what! Those boots had some mondo heels. I guess he's not fully grown. Tee hee.

 

[Tranquillity]

Whose to say that Spike hasn't told Buffy that he is alive already? Maybe she already knows and we just didn't get to see the revelation. I mean Xander had a deep and meaningful relationship with Dracula and we didn't know that was going on...🙂

Joss has said he'll use Spike, and Angel, i've no doubt we'll be seeing them somewhere along the line and personally, i'm looking forward to it. I really think the comics are missing the plukiness of Spike and Anya.

 

[white avenger]

When was it ever said or even insinuated that Buffy felt guilty or responsibile for Spike's death. We are missing a huge chunk of history between Chosen and S8. Any assumption you make about Buffy's state of mind is just that, an assumption. She may have been a total wreck,but then again she could have cared less. We don't know at all.

I'm struggling to understand how it is Ange's responsibility. It's one thing to think that Buffy would be pissed at him but anther entirely to believe he actually did something wrong by not telling her. Spike is a fully grown vampire for God's sake. I don't see how this isn't his choice.

You're probably right. Everyone knows that when you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption. (And no, that's not a smart assed remark, because right now I'm feeling a whole lot like umption)

I'm sorry, but I'm trying to balance 4 things simultaneously at the moment. Please be assured, Miss K, that I would love to argue this out with you, but right now I have to call a time out because we're in the process of a house moving, a slide show of my son and daughter in law's Indonesian vacation, a sick granddaughter, and...something else that I can't even remember at the moment.

But don't worry, like the Terminator, "I'll be back.".

 

[Superstar]

Angel just wouldn't be Angel if he won his humanity and didn't then turn right around and give it up.

Yeah, they already went through that before.
No difference if it happens again other than this time Buffy will remember it.

What would have to change?
Why all the demons going bye-bye so that Buffy won't have to protect human Angel.
Either that or Buffy gives up being the Slayer, which I don't see happening.
Hasn't happened yet even with a Slayer brigade.

He even had the Gem of Amara and flushed it.
At least that one was more understandable; Angel + invincible vampire gem = lots of bad guys on permanent Thunderdome duty once they know about it.

 

[palabravampiress]

^ See... and this is why I'm not a Bangel shipper. Angel will never let himself be happy. He never takes what he (says he) wants. Instead, he insists he doesn't deserve it or that it won't work or pretty much finds the nearest, self-sacrificing sounding excuse to give it back so that he has something to keep on brooding about. He doesn't even try to be happy... so why would I want to see him drag down my favorite super hero? Angel isn't just depressed; he likes his depression and does his best to maintain it.

That's why I have taken to shipping Bander, instead. Xander does the snoopy dance, is loyal and dependable, he makes Buffy laugh, and he isn't threatened by her slayerness. The vamp boys just make her cry and hate herself. With Xander, Buffy could feel good about herself and her un-cursed, functional, human relationship.


Anyway, whatever happens between Angel and Buffy or Spike and Buffy or all three of them, I'm hoping it doesn't end with Buffy baking up some cookies to share with anyone who has fangs.

 

[white avenger]

I agree that Buffy has a right to know but I don't agree with your earlier point that somehow it was Angel's responsibility to tell her. This one is all an Spike, you can't blame Angel for his cowardice in this situation. Spike bottled it, plain and simple.

(Okay. it's now 4:30, and the latest (and hopefully last) crisis has been dealt with, leaving me a few short moments before something else comes up)

I've been thinking about this off and on since my last entry, and I haven't changed my mind at all about what I said. I do believe that Angel has some responsibility in this matter, and that he has justifiable reasons to tell Buffy that Spike has returned. Unfortunately, the more that I think on it, the harder it becomes to express just WHY I feel that way. So this is the best that I can come up with, and even I can see that it's a not a really good argument, merely what I would have done if I were Angel or Buffy.

If I were Angel--I would feel responsible for Spike's death because he, in a sense, died in my place (that is assuming that Buffy bothered to tell him that about the circumstances of the last few moments of the fight as I'm sure she did). It was my job to wear the damn amulet, and I should have insisted on doing so, especially since I had my doubts as to just how dangerous wearing it might be. If it was a suicide mission, it was MY suicide mission, not someone else's. I agreed just too readily about that "second front" crap. I should have insisted on staying to help in the fight. It's what a real champion would do, and if I want to considering myself to be a champion, it's what I would have done.

If I were Buffy--I gave Spike the amulet, knowing that there were doubts as to just what its actual use would be and how dangerous it would be for the person wearing it. Whether I had "that cool axe thing going for me" or not, I was the leader, the risk should have been mine, not someone else's. By my direct actions, Spike died. Whether I was in love with him or not isn't an issue at this point. Spike, Anya, all of the others who didn't walk out of that hole alive died directly because of my actions, so, yes, I will mourn them. As their leader, that is the very least that I can do. If I could in any communicate my gratitude for what they did,I would do so.

Given Angel's (as I see it) feelings of responsibility for Spike's death, or loss of his undeath, I would feel that it was my obligation to assist the man who died in my place in returning to Buffy as he wanted to do, WOULD HAVE DONE, except for whatever mystical forces were keeping him chained to Wolfram & Hart. It could even be seen as being in my best interest, since not letting Buffy know of Spike's return would look far too much like I was just trying to eliminate a competitor for Buffy's affections and fresh baked cookies. Spike saved the world, and he did it in no small amount because he loved Buffy, and whether he does end up being her true love or not, as an honorable man, I should at least do everything in my power to insure that Buffy has that choice when the time comes,

Okay, I know that all of that is complicated and assumes quite a bit on my part, but that is still my opinion on the matter. I still feel that Buffy will hold Angel at least partially responsible for keeping her ignorant of Spike's return, and rightly so. Those are the actions that I believe, if Angel considers himself to be an honorable man, that he should have taken. Now, rip it apart as you see fit, but that is what I feel should have happened, and my explanation, to the best of my ability, of why I feel that way.
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]
Incidentally, I am referring to Angel's responsibility to contact Buffy immediately after he first appeared, not after he became corporeal again. At that point, I agree, the decision was Spike's and his alone.