I'm B-a-a-a-ack

[Angel's vision]

Since when did Angel tell Buffy anything regarding Spike and W&H? When Spike first appeared they were too busy bickering and trying to figure out why he was there. Angel was wanting to keep Buffy in the Dark about W&H, so that would also mean the Spike situation aswell, if he'd told Buffy about Spike it would mean telling her about W&H, too. Spike himself taunted Angel by saying "If only a certain slayer could see you now!" Angel then told him to shut up. So that's why he didn't get involved. Also it wasn't Angel's place to tell her anyway, it was Spike's regardless, of his condition, if he were really desperate he could of got one of Angel's friends to phone her, as it happends Spike gave a reason for not telling her, it would of been a great shock for her, and he wasn't going to tell her at that moment in time. IN his opinion.
Plus Angel was miffed Spike was there "muscleling" in on his territory anyway.

 

[Kean]

Yeah, they already went through that before.
No difference if it happens again other than this time Buffy will remember it.

What would have to change?
Why all the demons going bye-bye so that Buffy won't have to protect human Angel.
Either that or Buffy gives up being the Slayer, which I don't see happening.
Hasn't happened yet even with a Slayer brigade.

He even had the Gem of Amara and flushed it.
At least that one was more understandable; Angel + invincible vampire gem = lots of bad guys on permanent Thunderdome duty once they know about it.

See this I don't agree with at all. What you suggested isn't the Buffyverse, at least not as we know it now. As ATF has shown, human Angel does not need protection. He has been holding his own quite nicely in hell. I don't see why Buffy would have to stop being the Slayer for Bangel to have a chance. It's not just a job it's who she is. Angel gets that better than anyone because he is the same. He's a Champion, it's his destiny. Essentially, at this moment in time, there are no supernatural reasons hindering Buffy and Angel being together (well apart from the Hell thing)😉.

What stands in their way is all very normal, very regular human issues.

The main one being Angel's need to protect Buffy. She is not the "school girl" she used to be, she's a warrior and a leader in every sense of the word and he would have to get ok with that. The other reasons; logistics (he's in Hell she's in Scotland...long distance is a bitca on a relationship...but not impossible), the 5 years they have spent apart, they are both carrying a plane load of emotional baggage they didn't have the last time they were together, they will need to deal with that...easier said then done.

I think one the major things that would effect them is 'What do you do when your dreams come true?'. If we're lucky we'll get to see how that pans out😉

I've been thinking about this off and on since my last entry, and I haven't changed my mind at all about what I said. I do believe that Angel has some responsibility in this matter, and that he has justifiable reasons to tell Buffy that Spike has returned. Unfortunately, the more that I think on it, the harder it becomes to express just WHY I feel that way. So this is the best that I can come up with, and even I can see that it's a not a really good argument, merely what I would have done if I were Angel or Buffy.

If I were Angel--I would feel responsible for Spike's death because he, in a sense, died in my place (that is assuming that Buffy bothered to tell him that about the circumstances of the last few moments of the fight as I'm sure she did). It was my job to wear the damn amulet, and I should have insisted on doing so, especially since I had my doubts as to just how dangerous wearing it might be. If it was a suicide mission, it was MY suicide mission, not someone else's. I agreed just too readily about that "second front" crap. I should have insisted on staying to help in the fight. It's what a real champion would do, and if I want to considering myself to be a champion, it's what I would have done.

If I were Buffy--I gave Spike the amulet, knowing that there were doubts as to just what its actual use would be and how dangerous it would be for the person wearing it. Whether I had "that cool axe thing going for me" or not, I was the leader, the risk should have been mine, not someone else's. By my direct actions, Spike died. Whether I was in love with him or not isn't an issue at this point. Spike, Anya, all of the others who didn't walk out of that hole alive died directly because of my actions, so, yes, I will mourn them. As their leader, that is the very least that I can do. If I could in any communicate my gratitude for what they did,I would do so.

Given Angel's (as I see it) feelings of responsibility for Spike's death, or loss of his undeath, I would feel that it was my obligation to assist the man who died in my place in returning to Buffy as he wanted to do, WOULD HAVE DONE, except for whatever mystical forces were keeping him chained to Wolfram & Hart. It could even be seen as being in my best interest, since not letting Buffy know of Spike's return would look far too much like I was just trying to eliminate a competitor for Buffy's affections and fresh baked cookies. Spike saved the world, and he did it in no small amount because he loved Buffy, and whether he does end up being her true love or not, as an honorable man, I should at least do everything in my power to insure that Buffy has that choice when the time comes,

Okay, I know that all of that is complicated and assumes quite a bit on my part, but that is still my opinion on the matter. I still feel that Buffy will hold Angel at least partially responsible for keeping her ignorant of Spike's return, and rightly so. Those are the actions that I believe, if Angel considers himself to be an honorable man, that he should have taken. Now, rip it apart as you see fit, but that is what I feel should have happened, and my explanation, to the best of my ability, of why I feel that way.

Edit:

Incidentally, I am referring to Angel's responsibility to contact Buffy immediately after he first appeared, not after he became corporeal again. At that point, I agree, the decision was Spike's and his alone.

I can't help but feel that you are still working under the assumption that you know how Angel, Buffy and Spike reacted to the events of Chosen. I could give you what I think happened but essentially that is nothing more than a fan wank. We literally have no clue as to what went down. Maybe we will get it at a later stage but right now there is no way to say what should have happened when we don't know what did actually transpire. But since you put forward a scenario I'll respond to that.

It's still Spike's deal. No matter who was supposed to wear the amulet, his return from hell is still HIS. Even as a ghost the decision to tell Buffy rested on his insubstantial shoulders. He could have asked any number of people to make the call or write a letter. It was his truth that was kept not Angel's. Buffy may be pissed at Angel but it won't be his fault.

 

[sosa lola]

If Buffy and Xander become a couple at that time. Spike and Angel's reactions would be really interesting.

 

[white avenger]

See this I don't agree with at all. What you suggested isn't the Buffyverse, at least not as we know it now. As ATF has shown, human Angel does not need protection. He has been holding his own quite nicely in hell. I don't see why Buffy would have to stop being the Slayer for Bangel to have a chance. It's not just a job it's who she is. Angel gets that better than anyone because he is the same. He's a Champion, it's his destiny. Essentially, at this moment in time, there are no supernatural reasons hindering Buffy and Angel being together (well apart from the Hell thing)😉.

What stands in their way is all very normal, very regular human issues.

The main one being Angel's need to protect Buffy. She is not the "school girl" she used to be, she's a warrior and a leader in every sense of the word and he would have to get ok with that. The other reasons; logistics (he's in Hell she's in Scotland...long distance is a bitca on a relationship...but not impossible), the 5 years they have spent apart, they are both carrying a plane load of emotional baggage they didn't have the last time they were together, they will need to deal with that...easier said then done.

I think one the major things that would effect them is 'What do you do when your dreams come true?'. If we're lucky we'll get to see how that pans out😉



I can't help but feel that you are still working under the assumption that you know how Angel, Buffy and Spike reacted to the events of Chosen. I could give you what I think happened but essentially that is nothing more than a fan wank. We literally have no clue as to what went down. Maybe we will get it at a later stage but right now there is no way to say what should have happened when we don't know what did actually transpire. But since you put forward a scenario I'll respond to that.

It's still Spike's deal. No matter who was supposed to wear the amulet, his return from hell is still HIS. Even as a ghost the decision to tell Buffy rested on his insubstantial shoulders. He could have asked any number of people to make the call or write a letter. It was his truth that was kept not Angel's. Buffy may be pissed at Angel but it won't be his fault.

Well, as I said, I feel that way, even though I can't really explain to you just WHY I feel that way, and it has nothing to do with Bangel or Spuffy (or Bander, Batsu, or any other ship. It's just my warped sense of honor and belief in the way things "ought to be done." Call me an old fashioned idealist if you want to, but it's all just part of my innate Southern charm.

 

[Kean]

Unfortunately, at that time, his insubstantial of time. shoulders terminated in insubatantial hands that couldn't hold a substantial phone or even pen, assuming he knew where she was. Call Giles? Right

Notice how I said he could have asked anyone to make the call for him (i.e. dial the number and put the phone on loudspeaker for him) or dictated a letter to someone and asked them to post it to Buffy. As far as finding out where she was, well, if Spike really wanted to get in contact with her he would have. We both know that. And Giles? There is about as much chance of Spike calling him as there is of me turning Spuffy i.e nada! Bottomline, Spike had ample oppertunity to tell Buffy and he didn't. That makes it his responsibility.

 

[white avenger]

Notice how I said he could have asked anyone to make the call for him (i.e. dial the number and put the phone on loudspeaker for him) or dictated a letter to someone and asked them to post it to Buffy. As far as finding out where she was, well, if Spike really wanted to get in contact with her he would have. We both know that. And Giles? There is about as much chance of Spike calling him as there is of me turning Spuffy i.e nada! Bottomline, Spike had ample oppertunity to tell Buffy and he didn't. That makes it his responsibility.

I just can't see Spike asking anyone to do that for him. It was quite obviously like pulling teeth for him to ask Fred for help a few episodes later, (that's a flaw in his character, I know) but, okay, I'll concede that Spike might have found SOMEONE there among that group of strangers at Wolfram & Hart who would have done it for him, because I can't really see him asking Angel or Wesley, whom he knew and distrusted, or Harmony, who probably couldn't have made an international call if she tried.

Anyhow, he didn't, they didn't, and so we have the situation as it exists now, and it's still fun to speculate on the whys and wherefores.

 

[bufsum]

I think one the major things that would effect them is 'What do you do when your dreams come true?'. If we're lucky we'll get to see how that pans out😉

That would be something new for Joss... do you think he could make real happiness work for this wonderful couple? If he does decide to make this decision, it will be uncharted territory.

I just can't see Spike asking anyone to do that for him.

You're forgetting Fred, and the weird friendship they shared. She would have done it, in a second.

It was Spike's responsibility to man-up, and call Buffy.

P.S. I am trying to collect the Angel comics, but have not read them... Angel being human is a startling revelation for me. I have issues 4, 6, & 7... I need to find the rest.

:cheering: Angel's human! How fun for him! :cheering:

... I'm done now. 🙂

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Angel's humanity is, erm, complicated. I'm not sure I buy it. Neither is he.

 

[Superstar]

I don't see why Buffy would have to stop being the Slayer for Bangel to have a chance.

Buffy could be lying in the ground dead and rotted away and you would still have hope.

Oh wait, we've been there already.

What do you do when your dreams come true?'. If we're lucky we'll get to see how that pans out

I can visualize it now; the very last scene and everything somehow miraculously works out just peachy-keen perfectly... then Buffy wakes up in the sanitarium.
Fade out.
End credits.

 

[palabravampiress]

Well, I'm a Bander for the long-haul and a Spuffy if I've gotta choose between the two vamps, but neither of those preferences are what lead me to the opinion that Spike's reanimation was his deal and, therefore, so was the decision to tell Buffy or not. As in all things Buffyverse related, I do see a lot of wiggle room. I mean, it's hard to make time for personal stuff when new baddies are always cropping up and an apocalypse is looming. Even so, when, where, and how to tell Buffy... I think that's Spike's place.


As far as telling Buffy when Spike came back as a ghost, I actually don't think anyone should have told her that. He faded in and out and thought he was headed for Hell as soon as the amulet's power fully wore off. His ghostliness was just a wee bit of borrowed time and was kind of a punishment in and of itself. I don't see what good it would have done to have told Buffy that Spike's soul was temporarily clinging to Earth but slowly being sucked into Hell, anyway. People need to mourn and then move on... and they can't do that when they think that their loved one is suffering in the afterlife. If someone that I knew was a ghost who was doing his damndest to refrain from being sucked into Hell and losing that battle little by little every day, I sure wouldn't want to know. I would want to think that he went out in a blaze of soulful, shiny light and then went to Heaven (just as Buffy had done in The Gift).

But because this is the Buffyverse, it is possible that telling Buffy could have resulted in a reversal of Spike's ghostly state. The only thing that telling Buffy would have accomplished would have been getting Giles and Willow on the problem. And yeah, maybe that would have been worth it. Giles could have made up for trying to kill Spike (possibly repairing the Giles/Buffy breach) and Willow's magics would have come in handy. They actually could have saved him. That, I think was on Angel. When his team couldn't do it, it was up to him to bring in the outside experts. He's Spike's grandsire. They're family. They're practically brothers. I don't think Angel had a moral responsibility to tell Buffy, but I do think that as the leader and as a member of Spike's family, Angel had a moral responsibility to contact Giles and Willow, both of whom he knew could help. I mean, if my sister is dying of cancer and I know the best cancer specialist in the world, I'm gonna call that person up, right -- even if we're not on the best of terms? If any guilt rests with Angel, it's in giving up on ghost!Spike instead of using all of his resources to try to help him.


After Spike was recorporealized, though, something had truly changed. He wasn't dead anymore... or was at least as undead as Buffy remembered. That's when someone should have told Buffy - and that someone was Spike.

 

[white avenger]

Giles could have made up for trying to kill Spike (possibly repairing the Giles/Buffy breach) .


.

That's another thing. Even if Spike would have been able to get in contact with Giles, I believe he would have gotten the same response that Angel got when he asked for help with Fred. The day that Giles tries to make up with Spike, or when he apologizes for his treatment of either vampire is the day when camels will fly. He dislikes and mistrusts both of them and I fully believe that he will use any means at his disposal to assure that Buffy never has any dealings with either of them again.

 

[bufsum]

white avenger-True enough, but the option was still there.

Buffy could be lying in the ground dead and rotted away and you would still have hope.

And... there's always hope! Death is just another journey, after all.