I'm really pissed at Buffy regarding Giles

[patriot1123]

Okay, this has been stewing for a while. I'm not even close to season 7 in my 2d rewatch yet, but I'm already fuming about the way Buffy treated Giles after he acquiesced in Wood's effort to kill Spike.

I'm not going to defend Giles on that. I will say that it was out of character, and a writing flaw. Giles told Spike during s4 (can't recall which ep) that he had no intention of killing a harmless creature. Giles defended Spike's importance to Xander in "Spiral." Giles and Xander returned Spike to his crypt instead of killing him as Buffy wanted them to do in "Intervention." So: bad writing. Totally out of character.

But understandable. Spike had been used by the First to kill people. Giles is all about saving innocent people. To him, the decision was justified. I don't agree, but there is an argument to be made. His original mission is to slay vampires, after all.

But this is what infuriates me -- and what this topic is about. For seven long years, Buffy forgave absolutely every single morally ambiguous person except for Giles. And I don't even concede that Giles was morally ambiguous - he thought he was right; Spike had murdered innocents; and the mission really *is* to kill vampires. But regard the following:

Buffy forgave Angel for killing Jenny, torturing Giles, tormenting her mercilessly, teaming up with the Judge, and trying to kill her.

Buffy forgave Spike for wanting to kill her early on, for opposing her and working with Adam in s4, for trying to rape her, and for killing innocent people in s7.

Buffy forgave Willow for going dark, trying to kill her, Dawn, Xander, Anya, and Giles, and trying to end the world.

Buffy forgave Faith for teaming up with the Mayor, trying to kill her, almost killing Angel ("nobody messes with my boyfriend") and stealing her body.

Buffy forgave Tara for casting a stupid spell that almost got them all killed.

Buffy forgave Anya for killing the frat boys (after she undid it).

Buffy forgave Andrew for teaming up with the murderous Warren to take over the world, which ended in Tara's death and almost killed Buffy.

Giles is absolutely the only person in the entire 7-season run, who did something questionable, that she didn't forgive. She kicked him in the teeth repeatedly after LMPTM.

And Giles? He forgave Buffy for her "acting rashly" in Innocence. He forgave her for abandoning him after his torture at the hands of Angelus, and causing him endless worry and torment, at the end of s2. He forgave her for not telling him that his torturer, and the murderer of his girlfriend, was alive in Revelations.

But she couldn't forgive him one thing?

That pisses me off.

I hope people don't respond by telling me how wrong Giles was in LMPTM. I get that. What I don't get is that Buffy couldn't forgive Giles when she readily forgave everyone else.

That's just one of the many reasons Buffy could never be one of my favorite characters.

 

[Living Dead Boy]

Very valid points there. I can still remember hearing her say to Giles in "Dirty Girls": "You're not going into battle. I need you to stay with the others. Help those who still need a teacher." God! Did that line sting or what? But honestly I don't know what drove her to push Giles away like that. Maybe Buffy was too overwhelmed with her feelings towards Spike that it clouded her judgement?

 

[BuffyElevated]

Very valid points there. I can still remember hearing her say to Giles in "Dirty Girls": "You're not going into battle. I need you to stay with the others. Help those who still need a teacher." God! Did that line sting or what? But honestly I don't know what drove her to push Giles away like that. Maybe Buffy was too overwhelmed with her feelings towards Spike that it clouded her judgement?

I definitely agree that Buffy's actions in Season 7 were colored by her feelings for Spike. I hate that she got so upset with Giles; that she couldn't understand that Giles saw Spike as a liability. Giles was right; Spike was unstable, and The First was using him to do its work against Buffy and the others. I don't agree with Wood's method of "dealing" with Spike, but Buffy should have tried harder to see where Giles was coming from.

 

[Living Dead Boy]

I definitely agree that Buffy's actions in Season 7 were colored by her feelings for Spike. I hate that she got so upset with Giles; that she couldn't understand that Giles saw Spike as a liability. Giles was right; Spike was unstable, and The First was using him to do its work against Buffy and the others. I don't agree with Wood's method of "dealing" with Spike, but Buffy should have tried harder to see where Giles was coming from.

Exactly. But see, you know what? All of that could have been avoided if they'd had kept the scene in "LMPTM" where Giles told her about Ben. You can read it in the thread I made, just in case you missed it. But if only Giles could've explained it a bit further, that it isn't just about Spike, but it's about seeing the big picture, maybe Buffy would have seen where Giles was coming from, so that the fallout in subsequent episodes wouldn't have happened.

 

[white avenger]

I'm not saying this either to defend or attack either character, but it seemed to me that Buffy saw what Giles did in this case much more as a personal offense and betrayal of their friendship than anything that any of the others had ever done.

 

[SupportOGal]

Giles is my favorite, and I can't stand how their relationship deteriorates as well. Season 7 (and Buffy)'s treatment of Giles is deplorable.

That being said, I did want to point out that Giles has done a few things that Buffy had to forgive him for: Eyghon for one, and the BIG one is hypnotizing her, injecting her with drugs to take away her strength, with the intention of locking her in a house with a deranged vampire. (There are probably more, but I can't think of any right now. But it isn't like she NEVER forgave him for anything.)

I cannot believe I'm about to stick up for Spike, especially at Giles's expense. Here it goes. I guess I can see why Buffy was so...betrayed. Sure the rest of the gang all did things that were pretty awful at one time or another. Angel is the worst, but that was all Angelus; Spike was a vampire without a soul, so its amazing that he ended up on the side of good; and most of the rest of the gang didn't really betray her so...personally.

Giles kept talking about how Buffy had to be a leader, then went behind her back the first time he disagreed with one of her decisions, and had an elaborate setup to distract her while he murdered her friend, lover, and key player on the team. That's pretty awful, even if he did it for the greater good. It was a bad decision, and unfortunately he had to face the consequences, sad as they may be to us.

Giles didn't go into this blindly, though - he knew what the consequences would be for going behind Buffy's back and killing Spike. Imagine instead that Dawn were the potential danger, and he distracted Buffy to take her out instead. That rift would never heal.

I think that's why it is a little different in this situation. He not only completely disregarded her and betrayed her trust as a longtime friend, but also showed that when push came to shove, he didn't trust her as a leader. That's just no good for the mission, when the mission is what matters.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I understand where your anger is coming from. But honestly I think, as others have pointed out, that Buffy didn't care to consider where Giles was coming from because he had conspired to kill the person she was in love with. It didn't matter what his reasons were. Sure, people like to state that Buffy never loved Spike, but quite frankly I think her reaction where this betrayal is concerned speaks volumes about her feelings for him; in effect, it's got more to do with that than it does with her feelings toward Giles.

Buffy forgave Giles for putting her life in danger in "Helpless." She understood where he was coming from, by the end of the episode, and that was enough for her. When he endangered the life of someone she loved, she couldn't accept it.

Also just for argument's sake: with the exception of Andrew, Faith, and Anya 2.0 who chose to kill while possessing souls, most of the examples you listed in which Buffy forgives "x," happened when said character was at his/her evil, soulless worst, (I think we can essentially count Dark Willow as soulless if you buy the argument that it wasn't really Willow in there anymore). Forgiving Angel for the deeds of Angelus is akin to forgiving Spike for the deeds of Spike pre soul and Spike under the first's influence. Forgiving Dark Willow is similar to that as well. I think all of those examples fall into categories of their own, and thus it's conceivable that Buffy would find it easier to forgive them.
In contrast, I don't think Buffy ever truly forgave Andrew, Faith, and Anya2.0; I think she tolerated and made peace with what they'd done, in the same way she eventually made peace with Giles. That's my take on it!

 

[Hale Caesar]

Buffy also never apologized for insulting Giles, "I have nothing else to learn from you" scene...that scene really did not sit well with me, I was very disappointed with the Scoobies at that point

 

[patriot1123]

I was apprehensive about starting this thread because I'm pretty sensitive to any kind of Giles hate. So I'm very pleased -- and not at all surprised -- to find that all of the responses are measured, thoughtful, and make good points. I'm still getting ready for class tomorrow morning and may not have time to respond to everything, but I will anon. Thanks, everyone, for such thoughtful responses.

 

[Dagenspear]

Buffy also never apologized for insulting Giles, "I have nothing else to learn from you" scene...that scene really did not sit well with me, I was very disappointed with the Scoobies at that point

Why should she? She wasn't the one in the wrong.

 

[patriot1123]

Why should she? She wasn't the one in the wrong.

Giles was her Watcher, with 25 years' experience on her. What makes you say that he truly had nothing left to teach her? Rather than that she was lashing out and trying to hurt him. I'm genuinely curious to know why you think he had nothing left to teach her. I saw nothing in the show to indicate that she had learned all she could from him. Do we really stop learning? At such a young age?

 

[white avenger]

Giles was her Watcher, with 25 years' experience on her. What makes you say that he truly had nothing left to teach her? Rather than that she was lashing out and trying to hurt him. I'm genuinely curious to know why you think he had nothing left to teach her. I saw nothing in the show to indicate that she had learned all she could from him. Do we really stop learning? At such a young age?

I think that her statement wasn't so much to infer that there weren't things that Giles knew that she didn't, as it was to say that her sense of trust in him and her respect for him as a mentor,friend, and even father figure had been badly damaged, if not destroyed totally. He had betrayed her trust in a way that no one, if you count Angel and Angelus as two separate entities, ever had before, and that was going to take some time to get past. From that point on, at least as far as Season 7 was concerned, Buffy saw Giles more as an asset than an ally, which is somewhat ironic if you consider that that is the traditional Watcher/Slayer relationship, except with the roles reversed.

 

[Dagenspear]

Giles was her Watcher, with 25 years' experience on her. What makes you say that he truly had nothing left to teach her? Rather than that she was lashing out and trying to hurt him. I'm genuinely curious to know why you think he had nothing left to teach her. I saw nothing in the show to indicate that she had learned all she could from him. Do we really stop learning? At such a young age?

What [MENTION=][MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION][/MENTION] said. Buffy had every right.

 

[Ripper666]

I see what you mean. But you forgot a point in your list:

Buffy forgave Angel for killing Jenny, torturing Giles, tormenting her mercilessly, teaming up with the Judge, and trying to kill her.

Buffy forgave Spike for wanting to kill her early on, for opposing her and working with Adam in s4, ...

New one: Buffy forgave Giles when he poisned her to take her slayers strange for the "test",

Of course Buffy was not always fair to Giles. But Giles cheated on Buffy more than just once! He tried together with Wood to kill Spike, the person who Buffy loved! He poisened her. He left her in season 6 for no good reason. He was part of the group who threw Buffy out of her own house. I think he cheated more on her than she cheated on him. So Buffy was right in not forgiving him so easily. There was a time inwhich he was like a father for her. And he hurted her much more than he ever realized. I can understand her.

 

[patriot1123]

I think that her statement wasn't so much to infer that there weren't things that Giles knew that she didn't, as it was to say that her sense of trust in him and her respect for him as a mentor,friend, and even father figure had been badly damaged, if not destroyed totally. He had betrayed her trust in a way that no one, if you count Angel and Angelus as two separate entities, ever had before, and that was going to take some time to get past. From that point on, at least as far as Season 7 was concerned, Buffy saw Giles more as an asset than an ally, which is somewhat ironic if you consider that that is the traditional Watcher/Slayer relationship, except with the roles reversed.

I get what you're saying, but after all that they had been through together, Buffy had a duty to their friendship and him as her friend to try harder to see where he was coming from. She had allowed the vampire to remove the chip that kept him from killing human beings for the past three years, and he was killing innocent people under the apparently irresistible influence of the First. Giles had good reason to believe Spike was a threat and every reason in the world to believe Buffy would not act rationally where Spike was concerned. She owed it to Giles to try and understand where he was coming from.

Instead she chose an immature, petty, passive-aggressive insult that had for its sole purpose the intention of hurting his feelings and had no basis in fact. I don't see on what planet her hurtful retort may be called "right."

Even if her feelings were justified, the "right" thing to say would be, "Giles, stop. I'm really angry at you for what you've done, and I'm having trouble trusting you right now, and I don't want to hear what you have to say."

And then after that, she continued to kick him in the teeth. I'm not buying that his actions were somehow worse than all the other people Buffy readily forgave, and that's why he's the only morally ambiguous character in the entire 7-season run that she did not forgive.

At bottom it's a problem with the writing in season 7 because they both acted out of character. But we're stuck with it, and it's infuriating to me.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

She owed it to Giles to try and understand where he was coming from.

But she loved Spike. Even if she had tried to calmly, rationally, consider Giles's perspective, that fact was going to dictate her reactions and her emotions. At this point in time her feelings for Spike were in such a place that even if he was killing again at will she'd have trouble killing him herself, (as she did with Angelus, IMO). Really I don't think there was much thought of any kind involved here. That should at least make her reaction more tolerable, no? I mean if you see it that way?

I don't see on what planet her hurtful retort may be called "right."

But someone tried to take out the person (or at least one of the people) she loved. It'd make sense to me if she offered a lot more than just a retort for that! 🙂 Father figure or not!

I'm not buying that his actions were somehow worse than all the other people Buffy readily forgave, and that's why he's the only morally ambiguous character in the entire 7-season run that she did not forgive.

But really think about who Buffy supposedly "forgave." She forgave Angel, Willow, and Spike when they were not themselves. When they were under the influence of something else, be it a demon,(soullessness), magic, or The First. It was easier for her to forgive them since they had little control over what they'd done. It's not that their actions were easier to forgive than Giles's, (though that's a subject for another thread!) but rather the circumstances (lack of control) made it easier for Buffy to grant them that consideration.

Faith, Anya, and Andrew all chose to kill without any influence. They had souls. Anya chose to become a demon, (twice as Buffy points out in "Selfless.") Faith and Andrew murdered in cold blood. I don't think Buffy actually forgave them; instead, she continued to tolerate them. She needed Faith in season 7. Needed Andrew in season 8 and beyond. The thing is: Buffy greatly appreciates a redemption. This is one thing she's always consistent about. Remorse and reformation always get her attention, and when a character works toward becoming better, she is able to at least tolerate and make peace with them, maybe forgiving them eventually. I think that's what happens with regard to Faith, Anya, and Andrew. It's not outright forgiveness.

Buffy is far more selective, IMO, about who she forgives. It's something she granted Giles in "Helpless," and rightfully so. And I'd argue that by "Chosen" she'd forgiven him again. Sure the writing left a lot to be desired and the "I really do" is barely enough to do it justice. But I believe it's there.

 

[patriot1123]

He poisened her.

He redeemed himself and regained her trust in that same ep, by stopping the test, defying the council, saving her and her mother's lives, and getting himself fired.

He left her in season 6 for no good reason.

Buffy herself said he was right to do so. (I don't agree but that's for another thread. The point is Buffy no longer blamed him for that.)

He was part of the group who threw Buffy out of her own house.

AFTER she basically told him she didn't trust him and didn't want to have much more to do with him and kicked him in the teeth several times. This is another bit of very poor writing that was evidently ham-handedly designed only to set up more of the Spuffy that dominates season 7, because kicking her out of her house was WAY out of character for all of them. But again we're stuck with it so we have to pretend it's canon.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 PM ----------

And I'd argue that by "Chosen" she'd forgiven him again. Sure the writing left a lot to be desired and the "I really do" is barely enough to do it justice. But I believe it's there.

There did seem to be a reconciliation of sorts and maybe, again, it's poor writing, because I would like to have seen much more for the sake of all they'd been through together.

 

[patriot1123]

Really appreciate everyone's input - thanks again.

Have I mentioned how much I hate season 7?

🙂

 

[Dagenspear]

Ya know, I should say, I hate threads like this, threads that basically ask you to choose a side, which I really loathe doing in situations like this, because they're BOTH JUSTIFIED! And they were both in character. Giles was in character trying to do the wetwork. And Buffy was in character hating him for trying to off someone innocent that she loved, or cared deeply for. Giles was justified in taking out a potential danger. Buffy was justified in what she said, because really, what could she possibly have left to learn from someone whose response is to murder an innocent man (which kicks in the teeth of everything she believes in by the way), a man she loves, or cares for deeply, and is a strong asset and warrior to the mission. And I don't see why that's difficult to understand. But, if we're gonna throw blame around, then Giles was in the wrong, because murdering an innocent man is wrong, and revenge is wrong. So, Giles is wrong, and he deserved what he got.

 

[Ripper666]

He poisened her.

He redeemed himself and regained her trust in that same ep, by stopping the test, defying the council, saving her and her mother's lives, and getting himself fired.

Well just imagine he wouldn't have! It was his duty to stop the test! It was prerequisite that she can ever again look into his eyes.

He was part of the group who threw Buffy out of her own house.

AFTER she basically told him she didn't trust him and didn't want to have much more to do with him and kicked him in the teeth several times. This is another bit of very poor writing that was evidently ham-handedly designed only to set up more of the Spuffy that dominates season 7, because kicking her out of her house was WAY out of character for all of them. But again we're stuck with it so we have to pretend it's canon.

Yeah, but why she didn't trust him anymore? Because he came from who knows where and thought he could decide how everythinkg has to go. Buffy managed everything. I can understand that this turned her angry. But when he tried to kill Spike, he overcrossed a line. Spike fought with Buffy, Giles didn't even know how much he helped all others to survive. He didn't made any tries to know him better it was just:" Kill the vampire you can't trust him! ". But he missed his change. Because he wasn't there in season 6. I think Giles made a lot of faults in season 7 but Buffy did some too. They both play their role in this conflict.

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 PM ----------

Buffy also never apologized for insulting Giles, "I have nothing else to learn from you" scene...that scene really did not sit well with me, I was very disappointed with the Scoobies at that point

I don't think so. I was happy when he showed Giles that he overcrossed a line! That Giles can't allow hiself all what he wants. I justify this hard reaction with the fact that Giles never apologized for trying to kill Spike. Spike who sacrified his live to save the others and Giles life.