I'm really pissed at Buffy regarding Giles

[patriot1123]

And I don't see why that's difficult to understand.

Try harder. Because it is.

But, if we're gonna throw blame around, then Giles was in the wrong, because murdering an innocent man is wrong, and revenge is wrong. So, Giles is wrong, and he deserved what he got.

We must have been watching two different shows, because in the show I was watching there was nothing "innocent" about Spike. I'll spare you the laundry list of all the horrific things he did, including after he got a soul. And I never understood that whole "he's good now because he has a soul" thing. Timothy McVeigh had a soul. I'm even relatively certain Adolf Hitler had a soul. Giles wasn't unreasonable deciding not to take Buffy's word for it that Spike was suddenly no longer a murderer.

But this thread wasn't about defending Giles's actions. It was about Buffy being wrong not to forgive him after all they'd been through together and after she forgave everyone else who ever did anything bad. I'm sticking to that.

 

[Dagenspear]

We must have been watching two different shows, because in the show I was watching there was nothing "innocent" about Spike. I'll spare you the laundry list of all the horrific things he did, including after he got a soul. And I never understood that whole "he's good now because he has a soul" thing. Timothy McVeigh had a soul. I'm even relatively certain Adolf Hitler had a soul. Giles wasn't unreasonable deciding not to take Buffy's word for it that Spike was suddenly no longer a murderer.

But this thread wasn't about defending Giles's actions. It was about Buffy being wrong not to forgive him after all they'd been through together and after she forgave everyone else who ever did anything bad. I'm sticking to that.

Spike was being controlled by The First. It wasn't him. HE WAS INNOCENT. And he stopped himself from hurting Buffy, if you recall.

And lol... Who did Buffy ever forgive? Anya, who she spent almost all of season 7 not talking to? Or, Faith... Was that before, or after she pummeled her in Dirty Girls, a woman she only tolerated because they needed another fighter? Or maybe Andrew, who was only around for her to use for info, and maybe housework? Buffy just put up with them. She didn't forgive them.

Spike and Angel don't count because they didn't have souls.

And Willow wasn't really Willow... But hey, she didn't really forgive her either, I mean, they weren't exactly friendly after s6.

 

[EvilWillow]

Oh, I was never pissed at Buffy. She had every right to do what she did or say what she said. I think she was kind in regards to what I would say to him.

At this point in the series, Giles already plummeted himself to the bottom of my list of favorite characters (he used to be at the top). He had a little redemption in "Lessons" but he just kind of pissed meoff after that, which he has NEVER done before.

I never even got mad at him in "Helpless" because I know that he was just trying to do his job, and he even openly admitted and protested against the stupid test.

But this....the ultimate betrayal. Using Wood as a tool to get rid of Spike, who is a key player, right in the middle of an apocalypse. Pretty stupid, in my opinion.

 

[strawberryeve]

Giles is the one who didn't put trust into the relationship. I think his treating of the situation was way out of proportion. His behavior seemed petty for someone as responsible as Giles. He acts almost jealous of the friendship Buffy has with Spike and I think his need to kill him is more primal than calculated. He has already lost control of his Slayer, and he knew this when he found out she let the chip be removed - a decision she made without Giles. He was so outraged that he wasn't consulted and he seems more upset at this slight than the fact that Spike was chipless. Killing Spike was a desperate grasp to get the power back in his relationship with Buffy. Giles is the one who decided she didn't need a watcher anymore back in S6. Now, like a father would, he vies for her attention because she has a new man in her life.

When she closes the door on him, she is responding to the man who left her while she floundered. Somewhat alone and craving his guidance she settled for the bed of the only man who was available, attentive, mature and understanding of the darkness involved in being the slayer. It's kind of like she's saying, "Oh, so you're going to come back here and tell me how to live my life now? after you ditched me? get bent." She doesn't owe him an apology.
Giles has to contend with the fact that he told his Slayer to grow up and, whoa, she did! Now, understandably, he lashes out - emotionally and out of character, siding with an iffy ally to reassert his control over her. It backfires, because it must. Because this isn't Giles in his right mind. He says he would make the same choice again but I don't truly think he would if felt confident in his paternal role or could see the situation without the cloud of love in his eyes. He acts like a dad would: sends his daughter out into the world hoping she'll come running back and admit the world is a scary place without him -- she meets a new guy, and whether or not he's any good for her he is going to hate him. She doesn't have to validate his emotional fart.

 

[Willow My Love]

I feel like she wanted to forgive him. But he abandoned her right after he found out what had happened to her. They obviously didn't really keep in touch, because Buffy had to fill him in on everything that had happened while he was gone. He didn't intend on coming back. To Buffy, he was her makeshift father, and when she really needed him, he left her. I think she lost a lot of trust in him. Our friends we treat differently than our parents. They're the ones that are always supposed to be there to turn to no matter what, but Giles left. He wasn't there, and Buffy had to be in this living Hell without guidance. I think that scar went deeper than he knew.

And then, Giles tries to kill the one being that actually gave her solace while he was gone. Yes, it was OOC. Yes, it was for the greater good, but it's hard not to take things personally when everything's going wrong like it did in s7. I think it was easier to forgive the others their faults because she didn't take them personally. The situation with Angel and Willow were different than the rest. Those two were out of their minds, and it wasn't really them. Something dark had taken a hold of them, and was acting through their bodies.

It's hard when our parents let us down, because we're so used to it being the other way. They're our knights in shining armor. (And I don't mean every, single parent. Buffy's real dad was a constant disappointment. I mean those we put in paternal or maternal roles to us.) They're not supposed to ever hurt us, and when they do, it's hard to cope with. And Buffy was going through so much already, I can see why she was so hesitant with Giles.

 

[SlayerFest]

Buffy forgave Giles for putting her life in danger in "Helpless." She understood where he was coming from, by the end of the episode, and that was enough for her. When he endangered the life of someone she loved, she couldn't accept it.


In contrast, I don't think Buffy ever truly forgave Andrew, Faith, and Anya2.0; I think she tolerated and made peace with what they'd done, in the same way she eventually made peace with Giles. That's my take on it!

I disagree with the first half. Buffy understood where he was coming from in Helpless? I think she only forgave him because he tried to rescue her and because he was fired from the council for having a father's love for her. She didn't understand the council, she hated the damn council. I'm 85% sure that she was more pissed about that situation because the whole ordeal put her mother in danger...who I'm sure she loved a billion times more than Spike.

I totally agree with the second part. Maybe she forgave Faith, who knows, but she so did not forgive Andrew. She never stated that, her behavior never made it seem that way, and why would she think for a second that she should?

---------- Post added at 10:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------

Why should she? She wasn't the one in the wrong.

I can't rep you anymore but seriously...why the hell should she? He's the one who gave her this speech countless times. "You don't need me anymore. I'm going back to England lalalala" She needed you! *imagine that's in caps* Dawn became a klepto because of you and everyone missed you that season!

I think the show went downhill when Giles abandoned us.

All of us.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I disagree with the first half. Buffy understood where he was coming from in Helpless? I think she only forgave him because he tried to rescue her and because he was fired from the council for having a father's love for her. She didn't understand the council, she hated the damn council. I'm 85% sure that she was more pissed about that situation because the whole ordeal put her mother in danger...who I'm sure she loved a billion times more than Spike.

There is a difference between understanding where someone is coming from and being okay with it. Because of her love and respect for Giles, she allowed herself to understand and accept that he was merely doing what he had been asked to do, by the council. Of course she hated the council. She hated what they did to her, and what they'd asked Giles to do. That's not the point. She forgave Giles for adhering to the council's traditions, which was an inherently separate matter from the danger that Joyce was in. And yes, the fact that he came to rescue her certainly helped inform her feelings on the subject.

Of course, Joyce's kidnapping was a result of the foolish notion that a vampire could be contained by a bunch of councilmen. But Buffy couldn't and shouldn't have held Giles responsible for that.
Had Giles set up a plan which would have directly led, (with his knowledge and consent), to the capture of Joyce, then sure, we have an analogy, (ie Buffy not forgiving Giles for directly endangering the life on a loved one in the case of Spike). But that's not what happened here. Ergo, forgiveness was easier to come by.

 

[Mr Giles]

Buffy forgave Angel, Spike, Dark willow and them because they were possesed in some way. Thats understandable. But Giles was basically Buffys dad, and he went behind her back to kill Spike just because Giles was brainwashed by Wood. After all Buffy n Giles had been through, it was understandable.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

What I don't get is that Buffy couldn't forgive Giles when she readily forgave everyone else.



Why couldn't Buffy forgive Giles' for trying to get Spike killed? Spike has a "get out of jail free" card, remember? She's always been treated special by Buffy. Spike was very important to Buffy at that time; she went to lengths to protect him, and she believed in him when she had no real reason too. Giles betrayed Buffy in the strictest sense of the word. He disrespected her Slayer judgement by going behind her back and trying to kill Spike - arguably her best friend, biggest supporter at that time, and her closest ally.

I think Buffy had a right to be mad.

That said, the breakdown of Buffy and Giles' relationship is very sad, agreed.

 

[Dagenspear]

I'm 85% sure that she was more pissed about that situation because the whole ordeal put her mother in danger...who I'm sure she loved a billion times more than Spike.

Not a "billion."

I can't rep you anymore but seriously...why the hell should she? He's the one who gave her this speech countless times. "You don't need me anymore. I'm going back to England lalalala" She needed you! *imagine that's in caps* Dawn became a klepto because of you and everyone missed you that season!

Oh come on, you can't blame Giles for every bad thing in s6 just because most of The Scoobies are a bunch of unhealthy, co-dependent little brats.

 

[SlayerFest]

Not a "billion."
Oh come on, you can't blame Giles for every bad thing in s6 just because most of The Scoobies are a bunch of unhealthy, co-dependent little brats.

Yes a billion. And I know I said that I was going to try to cut back on the sarcasm on the internet...but it's in my blood. Possibly literally. I know that Giles isn't responsible for Dawn's kleptoness and Willow's crap, but the show did go downhill after he left.

I understand why ASH would choose England over L.A. but I don't understand how he could choose it over...us 🙁 okay, sarcasm...cutting back. Now. Maybe.

 

[Dagenspear]

Yes a billion. And I know I said that I was going to try to cut back on the sarcasm on the internet...but it's in my blood. Possibly literally. I know that Giles isn't responsible for Dawn's kleptoness and Willow's crap, but the show did go downhill after he left.

I understand why ASH would choose England over L.A. but I don't understand how he could choose it over...us 🙁 okay, sarcasm...cutting back. Now. Maybe.

I like s6 quite a bit actually. It was dark and depressing, and adult. And that's just my happy place. And sarcasm's just too much fun to stop. It's totally in my blood too.

 

[white avenger]

If you get right down to the basics, just about EVERYBODY was to one degree or another out of character at some point or another during this season, if not just about everything throughout the entire series, all building up to and culminating in Season 7. There's not a single character who didn't go as contrary to what we have come to know over the course of the series as Spike when he killed those people, and probably for exactly the same season. We saw how the First Evil manipulated Andrew, Spike, Wood, Willow and Faith, and even Angel back in Season 3, directly, with the result each time being that character doing something that was obviously a direct attempt to destroy the group as a team. It's as if it knew that, united, they presented a force that had a very good, if not certain, chance of destroying its plans, while separately, they could be distracted, misled, and ultimately defeated. Each yearly apocalypse, and even the events on "Angel," primarily the running feud between Angel and his crew and Wolfram & Hart could arguably be one cosmic chess game played between the First Evil and some equally powerful opponent, whether you choose to call it the Powers That Be, God, or the First Good.

I'm not even certain that Season 8 and Twilight aren't mixed in there somewhere. But that's the subject for a completely different thread.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Okay, this has been stewing for a while. I'm not even close to season 7 in my 2d rewatch yet, but I'm already fuming about the way Buffy treated Giles after he acquiesced in Wood's effort to kill Spike.

I'm not going to defend Giles on that. I will say that it was out of character, and a writing flaw. Giles told Spike during s4 (can't recall which ep) that he had no intention of killing a harmless creature. Giles defended Spike's importance to Xander in "Spiral." Giles and Xander returned Spike to his crypt instead of killing him as Buffy wanted them to do in "Intervention." So: bad writing. Totally out of character.

But understandable. Spike had been used by the First to kill people. Giles is all about saving innocent people. To him, the decision was justified. I don't agree, but there is an argument to be made. His original mission is to slay vampires, after all.

But this is what infuriates me -- and what this topic is about. For seven long years, Buffy forgave absolutely every single morally ambiguous person except for Giles. And I don't even concede that Giles was morally ambiguous - he thought he was right; Spike had murdered innocents; and the mission really *is* to kill vampires. But regard the following:

Buffy forgave Angel for killing Jenny, torturing Giles, tormenting her mercilessly, teaming up with the Judge, and trying to kill her.

Buffy forgave Spike for wanting to kill her early on, for opposing her and working with Adam in s4, for trying to rape her, and for killing innocent people in s7.

Buffy forgave Willow for going dark, trying to kill her, Dawn, Xander, Anya, and Giles, and trying to end the world.

Buffy forgave Faith for teaming up with the Mayor, trying to kill her, almost killing Angel ("nobody messes with my boyfriend") and stealing her body.

Buffy forgave Tara for casting a stupid spell that almost got them all killed.

Buffy forgave Anya for killing the frat boys (after she undid it).

Buffy forgave Andrew for teaming up with the murderous Warren to take over the world, which ended in Tara's death and almost killed Buffy.

Giles is absolutely the only person in the entire 7-season run, who did something questionable, that she didn't forgive. She kicked him in the teeth repeatedly after LMPTM.
And Giles? He forgave Buffy for her "acting rashly" in Innocence. He forgave her for abandoning him after his torture at the hands of Angelus, and causing him endless worry and torment, at the end of s2. He forgave her for not telling him that his torturer, and the murderer of his girlfriend, was alive in Revelations.

But she couldn't forgive him one thing?

That pisses me off.

I hope people don't respond by telling me how wrong Giles was in LMPTM. I get that. What I don't get is that Buffy couldn't forgive Giles when she readily forgave everyone else.

That's just one of the many reasons Buffy could never be one of my favorite characters.

I guess Buffy is like me in this area. She only forgives those that regret their actions. And I don't recall Giles being sorry. Wherther we think he's right or not doesn't matter, only is she does. And she seemed to dislike his descision the rest of the season.

I mean, you're wrong about her forgiving absolutely everyone, but i guess you meant everyone of the main characters, not all the characters. I don't see her forgiving warren, ever. Because he will never be sorry. Unlike the characters you listed.

However, in season 8 it seems like she's forgiven Giles. Or simply moved on from it, i guess it comes down to hairsplitting when deciding what to call it.

Btw, angel and spike didn't have a soul (and spike was mind-controlled in season 7)when they did those evil things, so in my book, I can't blame them for that.

Not sure if these things have already been said. My internet connection is poor, so I haven't been able to read all replies, which I'll try later.

 

[Buffy Summers]

And sarcasm's just too much fun to stop. It's totally in my blood too.

Well when it's belittling other members like that, you are going to have to stop or you will not be a member here any longer.

 

[SlayerFest]

I like s6 quite a bit actually. It was dark and depressing, and adult. And that's just my happy place. And sarcasm's just too much fun to stop. It's totally in my blood too.

Haha I actually really do like season 6. When I first saw it I was pretty young, and while I was still a fan of darkness at that age...I just couldn't relate to how Buffy felt. Well, not as much as I can now. While I enjoyed it, it pales in comparison to the earlier seasons. 1-4 to be exact. I'm really not that crazy about 5.

 

[RipperGilesFan]

Buffy also never apologized for insulting Giles, "I have nothing else to learn from you" scene...that scene really did not sit well with me, I was very disappointed with the Scoobies at that point

I feel the same way. But I mainly blame the writers for that. Like I hold their bad writing responsible for the break down of their relationship, starting in season 6 with the crappy excuse they came up for him leaving.

Plus,if I would consider the comics canon, Buffy's proven already how wrong she was with her remark. She still had a lot to learn.