Question In HIM, why is it BUFFY'S responsibility to find SPIKE housing?

[VampireSlayer07]

Exactly, he was already the big bad in season 2, so that would have felt a lot like recycling the storylines. I do also appreciate that they decided to end Spike's story on Buffy as one of growth, not reverting back to the original state.

I as a viewed would have been pissed if they'd undone all of his development, same as how they basically ruined all of Cordy's development on Angel in the end.

Arguably Spike was not the big bad of season two. That was Drusilla and Angelus. An evil Spike without his attachment to Dru would have been a new page for him.

Or he could have taken Caleb's place as the right hand of The First

 

[garfan]

Arguably Spike was not the big bad of season two. That was Drusilla and Angelus. An evil Spike without his attachment to Dru would have been a new page for him.

Or he could have taken Caleb's place as the right hand of The First

just Angelus. And Hell no, that would have been OOC for School Hard Spike, let alone a guy fie seasons later

 

[NoShip]

I'd have loved Spike getting his chip removed and becoming the Big Bad. I do think it could work, and as a bonus, it feels much more like "back to the beginning" that the writers promised (but failed to deliver).

Still, there's a part of me that would not care for a return of Angelus with Bleached Hair. They'd need to do something different with him, more so than they had already, to prevent it from become a Bangel clone that chooses the bad boy over shining knight standard option of romance (if with Joss twist, of the knife).

Hey, What If, instead of raping Buffy in Seeing Red, Spike searches out Drusilla & convinces her to try to get the chip out. Dru being Dru, succeeds.

Then, Season 7 could be Spike & Dru blowing into Sunnyhell in Beneath You to lead The First's anti-Slayer campaign. And hilarity, errr, hell-on-earth ensues!!! 😀

 

[thrasherpix]

Hey, What If, instead of raping Buffy in Seeing Red, Spike searches out Drusilla & convinces her to try to get the chip out. Dru being Dru, succeeds.

Then, Season 7 could be Spike & Dru blowing into Sunnyhell in Beneath You to lead The First's anti-Slayer campaign. And hilarity, errr, hell-on-earth ensues!!! 😀

I kind of like that idea (and helps fit with the "back to the beginning" theme that was promised, but not delivered save in the most superficial ways), but Spike did not want to destroy the world as Dru did as he explained in season 2.

It's possible that after his experience with the chip and having it removed that it changed him. Perhaps the removal nearly killed him and Dru had to feed him her own blood (even put some of her own brain into Spike's as a transplant!) which made him crazy, and thus this story arc makes more sense.

Though if that were the only thing out of character, it would still make a lot more sense than the season 7 we got!


I hold an unpopular view that a show should end with dignity rather than churning out eps and seasons as long as there's money in it (despite such beating the goose laying golden eggs almost always ruins characters AND the story). Generally speaking, that means not more than 5 seasons or so, and less is more. One SHOULD want more rather than feeling exhausted once it's over. Watching Buffy season 7 so disenchanted me with the series that I changed my mind on getting Angel so that it was many years later (and with others begging me for it) that I got it, and was surprised at how much I liked it.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

For a second, I thought Buffy fought the Powerpuff Girls's arch-villian.

 

[NoShip]

I thought the difference between Spike and Angel was that Spike got his soul voluntarily, while Angel was cursed with it. I'm thinking it's part of the curse that he was suffering so much from it. With Spike seeking out his soul basically for growth and becoming a better man, the situation was different.

Of course not everyone who has a soul is good and doesn't do evil things, but I feel it was more about giving Spike a chance. He was also not some random stranger, but someone she already cared for before on some level, intentionally seeking his soul to become better. That justifies at least a shot to prove yourself without getting staked!

And by the way, i think the Mayor mentioned selling his soul, implying he didn't have one anymore.

There is just one problem with this analysis. When you watch the Spike scenes between Spike fleeing Buffy's house in Seeing Red and getting his soul in the last 15 seconds of Grave, nothing Spike says or does indicates he wants anything but murderous vengeance on Buffy. Nothing says he is seeking his soul or wants to be a better being.

I know what Espenson & Whedon have said, BUT, they had to show something for the story to be anything but hack writing by bad or lazy or really arrogant writers. There is nothing on screen to back up any claims that Spike sought his soul much less that he wanted to be a better being.

If I missed something, please let me know.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I'm willing to believe the Arch-Demon "monkey pawed" Spike. If we go by Anya, the purpose of such a demon is to provide entertainment for the Lower Beings. That it did.

 

[NotASlayer]

There is just one problem with this analysis. When you watch the Spike scenes between Spike fleeing Buffy's house in Seeing Red and getting his soul in the last 15 seconds of Grave, nothing Spike says or does indicates he wants anything but murderous vengeance on Buffy. Nothing says he is seeking his soul or wants to be a better being.

I know what Espenson & Whedon have said, BUT, they had to show something for the story to be anything but hack writing by bad or lazy or really arrogant writers. There is nothing on screen to back up any claims that Spike sought his soul much less that he wanted to be a better being.

If I missed something, please let me know.

What I find plausible is that it was originally written so that Spike was going to get his chip out but got scammed by the demon. This is completely supported by the writing and acting in the run-up, and Spike's character on the show to date). Then, I think in season seven they were going to have Spike trying to deal with the unwanted presence of a soul, and it would be made clear that he'd been scammed.

However, I think they then retconned this in an attempt to not only rehabilitate Spike but the series as a whole after the terminal damage done to it in season six. So, despite there being literally nothing to back this up, Spike "wanted" to get his soul back and did it deliberately, instead of being done over. This was done in an attempt to make him seem a better person. Then they destroyed Buffy's character trying to back this up.

I'm willing to believe the Arch-Demon "monkey pawed" Spike. If we go by Anya, the purpose of such a demon is to provide entertainment for the Lower Beings. That it did.

Err, does that make us the Lower Beings?

 

[garfan]

There is just one problem with this analysis. When you watch the Spike scenes between Spike fleeing Buffy's house in Seeing Red and getting his soul in the last 15 seconds of Grave, nothing Spike says or does indicates he wants anything but murderous vengeance on Buffy. Nothing says he is seeking his soul or wants to be a better being.

I know what Espenson & Whedon have said, BUT, they had to show something for the story to be anything but hack writing by bad or lazy or really arrogant writers. There is nothing on screen to back up any claims that Spike sought his soul much less that he wanted to be a better being.

If I missed something, please let me know.

His comments were supposed to be red herrings basically. So I guess you'd have to call it intentionally bad writing

 

[hoponlilmama]

What I find plausible is that it was originally written so that Spike was going to get his chip out but got scammed by the demon. This is completely supported by the writing and acting in the run-up, and Spike's character on the show to date). Then, I think in season seven they were going to have Spike trying to deal with the unwanted presence of a soul, and it would be made clear that he'd been scammed.

However, I think they then retconned this in an attempt to not only rehabilitate Spike but the series as a whole after the terminal damage done to it in season six. So, despite there being literally nothing to back this up, Spike "wanted" to get his soul back and did it deliberately, instead of being done over. This was done in an attempt to make him seem a better person. Then they destroyed Buffy's character trying to back this up.


Err, does that make us the Lower Beings?

Oooh, the scammed idea does appear to fit.
I pulled up Spike's scenes on YouTube. Here's some of the lines:

"B**** thinks she's better than me...ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell."

"I'll take anything you can throw at me if it'll get me what I need to take care of the Slayer. Give her what's coming to her."

"..so you give me what I want, make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves."

There is no way Spike wants to be made 'the way he was' - because he didn't like himself as William. All soul-having.

And someone supposedly 'in love' - well, the above tone and words doesn't really indicate that, does it?

The demon even tricked him after his first battle: "You have passed the first stage.." and he laughs. He didn't inform him there would be multiple trials. So putting all that together, you could say Spike was played.


James even played it that way, thinking Spike was going to get the chip removed, didn't he?

 

[NoShip]

Oooh, the scammed idea does appear to fit.
I pulled up Spike's scenes on YouTube. Here's some of the lines:

"B**** thinks she's better than me...ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell."

"I'll take anything you can throw at me if it'll get me what I need to take care of the Slayer. Give her what's coming to her."

"..so you give me what I want, make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves."

There is no way Spike wants to be made 'the way he was' - because he didn't like himself as William. All soul-having.

And someone supposedly 'in love' - well, the above tone and words doesn't really indicate that, does it?

The demon even tricked him after his first battle: "You have passed the first stage.." and he laughs. He didn't inform him there would be multiple trials. So putting all that together, you could say Spike was played.


James even played it that way, thinking Spike was going to get the chip removed, didn't he?

You make alot of sense. Sounds like Whedon's rewrite & reshoot of the chapel scene in BENEATH YOU where Whedon removed Spike taking responsibility for the rape attempt.

 

[thrasherpix]

You make alot of sense. Sounds like Whedon's rewrite & reshoot of the chapel scene in BENEATH YOU where Whedon removed Spike taking responsibility for the rape attempt.

I've heard this before. Why would he do that? Did he think if it wasn't mentioned that we'd forget?

That's plausible now that I think about it. Despite having Warren used as the First through the first half of season 7, and Amy a second rate witch jealous of Willow, the comics retconned it so that Amy was powerful enough to steal Willow's kill (who was mystically tracking him, let's not forget) and save him to be her undead (or skinless) boytoy. (Also, Amy wanted cheese in the comics, but in the show said she hated it after being a rat.)

Joss claimed he forgot Warren had been killed! I find that unlikely (more likely he "forgot" to look at his ghost writer's works who barely even saw the show), but if he told the truth that he forgot (must be the high quality narcotics passed around in Hollywood) then he might assume we're just as forgetful.

 

[thrasherpix]

@NotASlayer

The real question is why are there so many who believe the comics are true to the show?

 

[garfan]

Amy and cheese can easily be she wanted it, but she didn't want to want it. Much like her claims of not remembering her time as a rat, I felt like she was doing a bit of denial, "If I pretend it never happened, then it's like it never happened."

I can only guess she wants Warren to screw with WIllow

I definitely think arrogance was a big problem for the writers the last few seasons

The big thing about Spike going to get the chip out? Spike didn't need to get the chip out to do anything to Buffy in season and going after those close to her isn't really his style.

The one time he grabbed Willow and Xander it was because he wanted Willow to do something for him

maybe he was supposed to be pissed cause he thought he wouldn't really exist anymore(and we've seen him be suicidal before). So giving her what she deserves is some soul having ponce

 

[NoShip]

Sounds like Whedon's rewrite & reshoot of the chapel scene in BENEATH YOU where Whedon removed Spike taking responsibility for the rape attempt.

I've heard this before. Why would he do that? Did he think if it wasn't mentioned that we'd forget?

Well.....I worked in Hollywood in 2002-2003 and one of the shows my company supported was called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. What happened was s6.

Gellar had very credibly threatened to quit after s6, and, to calm things down and get Gellar to sign on for TV s8, Twentieth & UPN agreed to double her current s7 salary and agreed to $8.5 million for 10 episodes for TV s8. Things fell apart over her demand for script approval because of her total mistrust of Noxon & Whedon & what they'd done in s6. Whedon, of course, threatened to quit if script approval was even considered. All this happened between filming DEAD THINGS in Feb-Mar 2002 & starting LESSONS in July.

S7 had been "planned" with the expectation that TV s8 was going to happen and the initial s7 episodes were broken & mostly written by the end of June 2002. So, a lot of rewriting had to be done since s7 went from a transitional season to the final season.

Gellar was leaving and Marsters was staying. So, the focus became reversing the 25 point popularity drop Spike suffered after raping Buffy. The result? Lots of rewrites & retcons & recharacterizations intended to remove the rape-stench from Spike so the audience, not just Spike's fan clubs, would love Spike again, and, most importantly, follow Spike to whatever spinoff got picked up (Faith the Vampire Slayer was the popular pick until Dushku signed on to Tru Calling).

Oh! And all this was happening while Whedon was also fully committed to producing FIREFLY and ANGEL. So......there is obviously no way anything could go wrong. Right?

 

[garfan]

Well.....I worked in Hollywood in 2002-2003 and one of the shows my company supported was called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. What happened was s6.

Gellar had very credibly threatened to quit after s6, and, to calm things down and get Gellar to sign on for TV s8, Twentieth & UPN agreed to double her current s7 salary and agreed to $8.5 million for 10 episodes for TV s8. Things fell apart over her demand for script approval because of her total mistrust of Noxon & Whedon & what they'd done in s6. Whedon, of course, threatened to quit if script approval was even considered. All this happened between filming DEAD THINGS in Feb-Mar 2002 & starting LESSONS in July.

S7 had been "planned" with the expectation that TV s8 was going to happen and the initial s7 episodes were broken & mostly written by the end of June 2002. So, a lot of rewriting had to be done since s7 went from a transitional season to the final season.

Gellar was leaving and Marsters was staying. So, the focus became reversing the 25 point popularity drop Spike suffered after raping Buffy. The result? Lots of rewrites & retcons & recharacterizations intended to remove the rape-stench from Spike so the audience, not just Spike's fan clubs, would love Spike again, and, most importantly, follow Spike to whatever spinoff got picked up (Faith the Vampire Slayer was the popular pick until Dushku signed on to Tru Calling).

Oh! And all this was happening while Whedon was also fully committed to producing FIREFLY and ANGEL. So......there is obviously no way anything could go wrong. Right?

Angel had no guarantee for season 5, so with Buffy ending where would Marsters be staying?

Okay, there's a spinoff chance, but Spike was no longer popular and Whedon didn't like Spike. So why would he be so dedicated to keeping him

 

[NoShip]

Angel had no guarantee for season 5, so with Buffy ending where would Marsters be staying?

Okay, there's a spinoff chance, but Spike was no longer popular and Whedon didn't like Spike. So why would he be so dedicated to keeping him

By "staying" I meant staying with Mutant Enemy because Marsters was willing to extend his contract.

UPN claimed to be committed to a spin off. So did WB. The interest dropped as it became apparent that the top line ratings for Buffy had dropped 20 points and were not coming back - so - about November 2002-February 2003.

Whedon did not have a choice about Spike. Twentieth execs had kicked Whedon's teeth in twice already - early s2 over not killing Spike & early s3 over bringing Spike back. Also, the executives saw Spike as a requirement for a spinoff to be successful. Spike's popularity crash after Seeing Red left them quite befuddled, but, also, quite determined to turn it around.

Whedon was all over the place. However, he was determined to that the post-Buffy Buffyverse would be successful and he saw Spike as a big contributor to that success.

As for Spike going to Angel, I am not certain. WB & Minear wanted a female (Hannigan was mentioned - Trachtenberg was available), Twentieth & Whedon were still pitching a spinoff & Spike was always talked about for the spinoff. Out of that foodfight, Spike was announced for Angel. IIRC, about two episodes before Chosen. Supposedly it was done to keep Marsters on board (not running off to his own show like Dushku did) while the spinoff was developed.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Amy & Warren: We know Willow & Xander were friends with both Jonathan and Amy, before Scoobies. So, Amy and Jonathan probably knew each other, and all being magic users, could freely discuss the black arts. So, Jonathan introducing them at some point during season seven. I mean, they were all EVIILLLLLLL, not evil. Besides, Amy has a different definition of evil than most of us, like, occasionally saying bitch vs. Having your soul ripped out of your body.

And this is the problem with Amy in seasons 6 & 7. She is insane.

1. Freaky Friday is like the darkest magical spell you can use. Amy has to live in constant fear that it can happen to her at any time, like just walking down a street, an elderly man in a wheelchair just has to touch her while reciting a spell, and it's trapped in a dying body while "you" smiles and walks away. She may even have memories of what her mom did in her body, and may even have her mom's memories. Who knows? There's an old Star Trek Theory that the Transporter kills you, then simply creates a copy with no meaningful continuity between the two entities. Maybe that's how body switches work to a degree?

2. Amy lives in constant fear of becoming a Rat again. Or, or another Magic user turning her into a rat again. I doubt she's what someone else calls a "Animagus," so it was forcibly being turned into a rat. I'm sure she never lost her taste for cheese.

And who is the one person, who can turn her into a Rat, or rip her soul out of her body? Willow. So, Amy's goal is to make sure that can never happen to her again, even if Willow is her friend. So, massive trust issues, paranoia, mind warped by the dark arts. She's crazy, but in a completely sympathetic way.

Which goes back to Warren, Amy hates her mother, and probably despises her father as weak. She is also afraid of her coming back. Having a few magic users, one who wouldn't be opposed to building an army of anti-fembots wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Amy and cheese can easily be she wanted it, but she didn't want to want it. Much like her claims of not remembering her time as a rat, I felt like she was doing a bit of denial, "If I pretend it never happened, then it's like it never happened."

I can only guess she wants Warren to screw with WIllow

I definitely think arrogance was a big problem for the writers the last few seasons

The big thing about Spike going to get the chip out? Spike didn't need to get the chip out to do anything to Buffy in season and going after those close to her isn't really his style.

The one time he grabbed Willow and Xander it was because he wanted Willow to do something for him

maybe he was supposed to be pissed cause he thought he wouldn't really exist anymore(and we've seen him be suicidal before). So giving her what she deserves is some soul having ponce

True on the count he could already hurt Buffy even with the chip, but I think it to mean more than Spike can return to being a 'real' vampire again. Buffy even mocking him 'can't be a man, can't be a vampire; where the hell do you fit in?' is something that has weighed heavily on Spike.

As for not going after those close to her...he would've turned Willow (or just flat killed her) if it wasn't for the chip. Given the years of humiliating him and the way they treated him, Spike back at full power would be dangerous.

Spike's quest, what he said, it was just poorly executed.

 

[thetopher]

Because he got a soul for her.

It's right there in the second episode. Spike got a soul for Buffy so she is now responsible for him so she has to take care of him. That's evidently her thought process all through season 7.

And yes, its incredibly messed up.