In your opnion....

Who is the real champion??

  • Angel

    Votes: 20 71.4%
  • Spike

    Votes: 8 28.6%

  • Total voters
    28
Alyson said:
Spike did NOT get his soul back to "get in buffys pants" I totally disagree, he was in love, thats why he spent 3 years following her, thats why he nearly let Glory kill him for her, thats why he went all the way to africa (I think?) to get his soul back. Some people might think that there relationship was just fake and meaningless. It was meaningless, Spike loved buffy with all of his heart, but buffy didnt love spike back.

You speak true words, but it wans NOT meaningless in the end! - Spuffy all the way!

On Topic:

I think there both champions, it doesn't matter how long you've done it or if you deserve it, they are both champions in their own right.
 
Spike and Angel are both champions, but Spike is the nicer person. Most of the time Spike was on Buffy before S7 he was a souless vampire, a complete remoseless monster and yet he helped Buffy. Sure he was selfish--souless creatures are selfish, but he also actually loved her which I think is interesting. Compared to Angelus souless Spike is a lap-cat. He doesn't rape his victims (as far as I know) and Angelus often rapes his. Of course murder is terrible, but even as a souless creature Spike doesn't seem to enjoy cruelity. Angelus loves to torment people, he completely destroyed Drucilla and enjoys causing pain. Souless Spike loves to fight and to win. He starts brawls and kills innocent people but his life wasn't about finding the next victim. If it was Buffy would have staked him long ago. Spike the souless vampire falls in love, feels a sense of responsiblity, and is tortured by the world and the woman that he cannot understand.

Once Spike gets a soul he becomes good immediately and returns to Buffy. He knows she doesn't love him and he does not try to make her care about him or resume their sexual relationship. Spike is a fundamentally good man. Just because he is a bad-ass who makes smart and sometimes scathing comments doesn't mean he is somehow less worthy of admiration. If scathing comments and putdowns were evil Cordy would be the devil and I think everyone agrees that Cordy is a champion in her own right.

Spike saved the world. That he diminishes his own accomplishment doesn't make it any less important. Spike didn't abandon his friends even though they, especially Buffy and Dawn, saw him at his very worst while souless. Both Angel and Spike fight for good but Angel's treatment of the people around him deeply distrurbs me. I can't belive after watching Angel that Angel does not share some sadistic tendecies with Angelus, who is after all part of him. Angel has done very good things. He saved his friends and countless inocent people on numerous occasions, yet a few of his actions trouble me deeply.

When Angel found out that Wesley took Connor, he doesn't try to talk to Wes. Instead, Angel attacks him and tries to smother him with a pillow. This is the action of a desperate man, but not perfectly understandable and definitely not justifible.

Buffy is a true champion she doesn't arbitrarily despense justice. Buffy kills demons but never harms humans. She was terrified when the trio tricked her into thinking she accidentally killed a girl and willing to turn herself into the police. More telling, Buffy completely rejected Willow's justification for killing Warren and tried desperately to stop her from killing Andrew and Jonathan. Angel is more like Willow than Buffy. He didn't actually kill Wesley, but he wanted to do so just like Willow wanted to kill Andrew. Rage and pain doesn't justify murder.

Another of Angel's actions which distrubs me was his willingness to kill Cordeila when she was posessed. Cordy was completely innocent and Angel loved her, yet he tried to stab her to death. Angel went through a lot, but killing an innocent person to save the world is never good. The ends just don't justify the means. Buffy went through a similiar situation with Dawn and rejected the option of killing her sister. Angel also relied on W&H to maintain Cory in her coma and to save her. That action was extreemly unfeeling especially for him. W&H had no reason to save Cordy and while Angel brooded and managed the company, she wasted away and suddenly died. Could he have saved her? I don't know, but he didn't really try.

I don't think Angel is a bad man. He has been through more horrible things than any person should ever experience and has done a lot of good for the world. Angel is complicated and not always good. Spike is a much nicer person than Angel. The question the is what makes a Champion motivation or deeds. Spike has the motivation and Angel has the deeds. Buffy has both.
 
So many people have been talking about how Angel fights for redemtion. Right, that and guilt are what motivates him. He does what he does to attone, to assuage his guilt, which (like so many things) is selfishly motivated in the end.

Spike has feels no guilt for the acts he commited as a vampire (Lies My Parents Told Me), he understands that he was controlled by the demon within him at that time. He knows he's not responsible for thoes actions, yet he still selflessly helps, and ultimately sacrifices himself... Becomming human has never been a factor for Spike, he does/did everything simply because.

As for the soul issue... Angel orriginally had his soul forced on him, and although in IWRY he chose to keep helping people it was because he didn't feel as though he had earned to become human... He was still carrying around all of this guilt that he needed to get rid of, and as a human, he wouldn't be able to do that.

Spike went and got his soul. Sure he did it for Buffy, so that she could have "what she deserves", but he still acted selflessly. Not like that had immediate payoffs or gratification for him, for all he knew, he'd never be "close" to Buffy again, and there's alot of baggadge that comes with a soul... But he still did it. Not for himself, but forsome else, someone who needed him.
 
Hitome said:
Another of Angel's actions which distrubs me was his willingness to kill Cordeila when she was posessed. Cordy was completely innocent and Angel loved her, yet he tried to stab her to death. Angel went through a lot, but killing an innocent person to save the world is never good.

Sorry but what are you on lol. Killing one person to save the world is right. You make it sound like Angel went "YES! FINALLY A CHANCE TO KILL CORDY!" It wasn't like that. Angel went over both sides over and over and in the end decided that one life wasn't worth the end of the world. Even when Cordy was on the ground he hesitated. Killing Cordy would have hurt Angel tremendously but he was willing to do what was right (saving the world). That is what makes him a Champion. Also about the whole pillow thing with Wes. If the same thing happened but with Spike instead of Angel I can see Spike reacting the exact same way.
 
It depends on who it was for Spike... Spike wouldn't just kill anybody. If it was one of the scoobies i.e. Tara, Willow, Giles i don't think he'd go through with it. Now if it was Angel or any old human say a rapist or a something i think he'd jump to do it.
 
No way would Spike have sat down and spoke about it. He is a lot more impolsive than Angel and he thinks about things a lot less. He would have reacted the same if not worse as Angel did to Wes.
 
Angel's sacrifice (in I Will Remember You) inspired Doyle's deeds in Hero because Doyle realized he was backing a good man. Spike made his deal to be ensouled because he wanted to be a better man, the kind of man he knew Buffy saw Angel as. It doesn't really matter if Angelus didn't choose his big "career move" coming or not, because he, like Spike, made a play for the good side after he saw Buffy. They both made the same kind of decision for the exact same reason. Both Angel and Spike have made many sacrifices, both willingly and unwillingly, but neither have overly complained (well, except for Spike when he saw what Angel had recieved by agreeing to take over Wolfram & Hart). I truly feel that both vampires have proven their mettle time and again (remember Spike was willing to take up Angel's gig when "Doyle" came to him with the same proposition as Angel recieved in season 1), and to deny that belittles all the good that either has done since.
That being said, I picked Angel only since it is his show, because they are both equally champions in the eyes of the Powers That Be and, I am sure, the Senior Partners (much to their dismay); but more so because there was not a both option.
Remember that Spike was not the Spike he is now. That was a demon walking around with the memories of William the Bloody (aweful poet), and he has stated he had his fare share of blood, rape, and familial massacre. His evil was only reined in with a chip. The same goes for Angelus (replace the word chip with curse).
::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat::

And also remember that Giles MURDERED Ben so Glory couldn't come back seeking vengence. Ben was as much a pawn as Dawn ever was (even if he did let Glory have her way with Dawn in the end). And ol' Rupert never knew that Ben ever made that decision; as far as he knew Ben was an innocent.
That is as evil an act as ALMOST any other that has been done on the shows.
::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat:: ::bat::
 
No Angel said:
Sorry but what are you on lol. Killing one person to save the world is right.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't kill your own children, girlfriend, best friend, fill-in-the-blank if it is the absolute only way to save the world. However, killing one person to save many isn't a good decision ever and is not moral. After all what's the difference between Connor's sacrifice of the scared girl in S5 and Angel's idea. Not much really. They both thought they were doing the right thing and saving everyone by killing one person. Connor was definitely wrong and I would argue that Angel was as well. The "lesser evil" is still evil and always will be. If you kill a scared innocent person don't tell me "I was only thinking of everyone else." It doesn't work that way.
 
Hitome said:
I'm not saying that you shouldn't kill your own children, girlfriend, best friend, fill-in-the-blank if it is the absolute only way to save the world. However, killing one person to save many isn't a good decision ever and is not moral. After all what's the difference between Connor's sacrifice of the scared girl in S5 and Angel's idea. Not much really. They both thought they were doing the right thing and saving everyone by killing one person. Connor was definitely wrong and I would argue that Angel was as well. The "lesser evil" is still evil and always will be. If you kill a scared innocent person don't tell me "I was only thinking of everyone else." It doesn't work that way.

I think when the fate of the world is at stake you won't be condemed for killing one person. It wasn't even Cordy he was going to kill. For all he knew the real Cordy was burried so deep that she was never coming back. Now I'm guessing that you are talking about S4 when you say about the scared girl. You can't even compare these two events. Connor was being manipulated by an evil and didn't have a clue what he was doing. Angel knew that the only way to stop the end of the world was to kill Cordy. You may not think it's moral to kill a friend but keep in mind that wasn't even Cordy. Plus when you have the weight of the world on your shoulders you have to make sacrifices like that. I think with all these facts taken into account there is no issue about morals. Angel did what needed to be done.
 
so it was angel for the longest time, but spike just had to get in there! 😉 i voted spike as of recent times, but we all know angel was! but it seems spike has more passion now a days with saving the world and all. but really both of them are, working together ::kiss:: there can be 2 champs right?
 
I really don't know.. I don't really agree with either...

Spike did everything for love, Angel I suppose in a way, for guilt. I don't think I can pick between them.. I like Spike more.. but that's not really the point 😛
 
I voted Spike, mainly because of his passion. I understand that is was for Buffy, but now that she's been out of the picture for a while I think he's focusing more on fighting the good fight. Also, usurping the Champ position from Angel.

I dunoo, I guess I alwasy felt that Spike had...a little more fire in him. Angel can be incredibly selfish sometimes. Angel has his points, and Spike has his. Spike is just the guy I picked. THE END.
 
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