Inside Out...

[Sunnydale Siren]

Skip was great and it was nice briefly seeing Darla again.

The rest of this episode was a chore to sit thru, just don't like this s/l. Plus I simply don't buy that three years of events lead up to this Jasmine being "born" from Cordy.


Felt that was a bit of a stretch by the writers.

JMH0

 

[charmingslayer]

OMG when skip said the 3 years were set-up's I almost lost all care and interest in the series! no joke. It's like they dumped 3 years down the toilet.

Oh and Connor is sick! (you'll know what I mean when you get thru the arc)

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

OMG when skip said the 3 years were set-up's I almost lost all care and interest in the series! no joke. It's like they dumped 3 years down the toilet.

Oh and Connor is sick! (you'll know what I mean when you get thru the arc)

Conner shed innocent blood, while having a S0UL and not being posessed.

He's DEAD TO ME!

 

[atticus]

Worst episode ever! It damages all of the characters, practically destroys one of my favorite episodes " Birthday". And makes Skip, who was the height of cool, into an ass.
Damn episode, I think there should be a petition to have it removed from Angel continuity. Let's just pretend it never happened. 😀

 

[charmingslayer]

I agree it damaged everything and me feel like the first 3 years were a joke.

 

[white avenger]

Skip was one of two demons on Angel (Sahjahn was the other) who I liked simply because of the way that they talked. It was as though they never took anything with complete seriousness. They actually joked about what was going on.

 

[Kana]

Skip was one of two demons on Angel (Sahjahn was the other) who I liked simply because of the way that they talked. It was as though they never took anything with complete seriousness. They actually joked about what was going on.

Hehe partially true, I think.

It's possible that Skip really did believe it but I think at any rate Gunn's speech redeemed it for me. Angel once said the powerful control everything except our will to choose. This is the true strength they have as heroes. It's actually possible Skip was merely trying to get the gang to give up or maybe it's possible that Jasmine arranged some events.

While Gunn potested that they make their own choices, of course they are some mystical events that tranpsired outside of their control. Angel didn't choose to come back from hell. Nor did he plan to have a child with Darla.

Wes decided not to give up and defeated Skip. Angel decided not to give up and helped to stop Jasmine's reign. The choices count no matter how many players you rig.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Worst episode ever! It damages all of the characters, practically destroys one of my favorite episodes " Birthday". And makes Skip, who was the height of cool, into an ass.
Damn episode, I think there should be a petition to have it removed from Angel continuity. Let's just pretend it never happened. 😀

This is the best thing I've ever heard. I totally agree.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------

It's actually possible Skip was merely trying to get the gang to give up or maybe it's possible that Jasmine arranged some events.

I like the idea that Skip could have been lying. I'd really rather believe that theory than what he actually said - about none of the characters having control over their fates, and that it was all just a plan to bring Jasmine into the world. I hated what he said about Cordelia.

 

[satam55]

OMG when skip said the 3 years were set-up's It's like they dumped 3 years down the toilet.

Worst episode ever! It damages all of the characters, practically destroys one of my favorite episodes " Birthday". And makes Skip, who was the height of cool, into an ass.
Damn episode, I think there should be a petition to have it removed from Angel continuity. Let's just pretend it never happened. 😀

I agree it damaged everything and me feel like the first 3 years were a joke.

I 100% agree. I just got done watching this episode for the 1st time hours ago. I wonder what's gonna with Cordelia after this?

I'm re-watching this episode right now, after I just finished watching it for the 1st time ever hours ago.

They really messed up the character of Cordelia in this episode, not just in Angel Series but probably also on the first 3 seasons of Buffy as well. Everything that happened to Cordelia in the buffyverse has all just been a ruse, for this weird storyline going on right now.

Now, I understand why fans always complain about the character of Cordelia in Season 4 of Angel. The have completely ruined her character. And it really makes me mad because Cordy is one of my Top 5 of favorite characters in the Buffyverse.

 

[laianna]

Well, don't kill me but personally, I like this episode.

Season 4 for me is very different each time you watch it. The first time I watched it I thought it was boring and unneccessary. The second time, I went with the general opinion that they ruined Cordelia and butchered the series.

Now though, I appreciate what they did here. I have a better understanding of all the characters and the "boring" parts seem more important to me, in that they are actually pretty crucial. We know that the person in this episode is not Cordelia and for that, I can appreciate Jasmine as the clever villain everyone loves to hate.

Connor's growth, or rather, lack of, is proof of how everything is rapidly spiraling out of control and it is one reason why Angel makes the choices he does at the end of the season. I'm not a big fan of Connor's behavior or the way that Cordelia's body is manipulated but I get that it had to be done for the plot to go in the planned directions starting in the following episodes.

Me, I don't mind that Angel & co. were supposedly playing puppets to Jasmine all this time either because I feel like they make up for it in the best way possible-- by coming back strong and doing the best they can despite this huge blow. Furthurmore, it really sets the scene for the fifth season, especially Gunn's stance on the whole issue of the

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and how they eventually make the decision that even if they can't bring these powers down completely, they can always make the choice to send a blow of their own.

 

[Crashing Doors]

I'm going to try looking at this a different way--I mean, it's how I've looked at it, but... well, stay with me here.

From twiztv.com:

ANGEL
It wasn't just her ascension. Everything that's happened to Cordy in the past few years"”all of it"”was planned.

SKIP
You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.

Skip could have just taken notice of those things, and used that as "evidence" to manipulate Angel and co into believing this "ruse". To make them think that they have no choice, that they can't stop what's going on since it's "predestined". I mean, what does leaving Pylea have to do with it? Or Gunn's sister, or Wesley and Lilah's sexy sex making? He's just spouting out things that happened, implying that they had some larger meaning... I don't think they do, I think Skip is full of shit.

GUNN
No way. We make our own choices.

SKIP
Yeah, sure. Cheese sandwich here, uh, when to floss. But the big stuff, like two vampires squeezing out a kid?

ANGEL
Connor.

WESLEY
An impossible birth to make one possible.

SKIP
That's what the kid was designed for.

LORNE
(chuckles) To sleep with mother love?

ANGEL
To create a vessel.

Why go through all that trouble? If they're demons with big demony strength and powers, couldn't they have found another way to give birth to Jasmine? It'd make more sense to me that the PTB "made" Connor to give Angel a chance at redemption--if Angel has a human son, maybe he'll have something worth fighting for. Again, couldn't Skip just be using this to manipulate the gang in a pathetic attempt to make them give up all hope of getting rid of Jasmine?

And anyway, if Jasmine followers really went through all the trouble to let Connor be born, why send him to Quor'toth? Does he really need to be a crazy fighter guy in order to make sex with Cordy?

"Oh, well, no; actually it's because a baby can't impregnate a woman, and Jasmine HAD to return in 2003 or whatever year it was". If that's the case, why not just 'manipulate' things back in 1985? Why not get Angel to vamp-regnate someone then, so that Angel Jr. would sleep with Cordelia after having grown up on Earth for 18 years?

I've watched this one a few times, and although I'm not a huge Jasmine fan, I never thought "this ruins Angel!!!". I never actually sat and thought out all of what I just posted, but in the back of my head somewhere, that's what was going on. I never trust what the bad guys tell me.