Is Angel Lame?

[Lyri]

I think you've just pointed out what makes me hate Angel so much... something I couldn't put my finger on until now. Introverts drive me crazy because they can have a wealth of thought without expressing it. I'm one of the most extroverted people on the planet. I'm not extroverted in the sense I make a lot of friends... but I talk to everyone... and if I have a thought or opinion, you'll know it. I think out loud more often than I think in my head. Introverts drive me nuts and I think not expressing yourself is REALLY lame. I say this meaning no offense to the introverts around the boards because I'm sure there are a lot... but typically, introverts drive me nuts. That's not all of why I hate Angel... but I think that's why I'm harder on him than a "normal" person...

I don't mean expressing yourself like that... I mean expressing your every thought in words. I am aware that there are ways Angel expresses himself. But he never says what he's thinking... and the only way to get him to is to ask him a very specific question. That kind of person drives me crazy. I can't stand not knowing what those around me are thinking and feeling. Quite frankly, it makes me nervous and uncomfortable. I've worked very hard over the years to get really good at people watching and reading expressions... there are some really introverted people (like Angel) who make reading expressions rather difficult. I would prefer you just SAY what you're thinking... but if you don't, I want to be able to read your expression. If I cant, I get nervous. It's kind of like "what good are your thoughts if you don't share them." It's a large reason I hate Oz too. I just can't deal with that type of person.

I'm sorry, but I find this very, very offensive.

I am an EXTREMELY private person. I'm so private, in fact, that there is only one person on this entire planet who knows exactly what I'm thinking at any given moment, and the only reason she knows is because I know she's never going to judge me for the way my mind works. If I voiced all my inner most thoughts, trust me, you'd be more than shocked.

So to find out that there are people out there who judge me for keeping my private thoughts private? Yeah, that's more than a little upsetting.

Even the most open person on the planet will not share everything to everyone. It is our right as people to keep things to ourselves, to have our own private thoughts and feelings, and to find out that people are annoyed by that...I just don't have the words.

I'm sorry, but this has upset me a lot.

Back on topic, I do like Angel. I like him more on his own show than on BtVS, where I felt he was hiding behind Buffy's shadow. On his own show, he grew into his own person that being on BtVS would never have allowed, because it wasn't his show. Yes, he's introverted, but I like that. I like that you have to KNOW him to understand him. That's the best thing about people, getting to know them and finding out what makes them tick.

 

[Kean]

I like that you have to KNOW him to understand him. That's the best thing about people, getting to know them and finding out what makes them tick.

THIS. Easily one of my absolute favourite things about Angel. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Yeah. That's why, when I first saw Angel and Buffy together, I wondered who the big putz was messing around with spike's girl. I'm still wondering.

But dont you think that is some of the reason why you think he is 'lame' on Buffy? Because you watched it, more or less backwards. You didnt really see and witness the growth of the character but more or less the regression.

 

[InsaneMystic]

@ Zo...

As I said in my karma to you, this is one of the (exceedingly few) times where I'm utterly different than you. I know it may be hard to imagine from how I come across over the net, but I'm one of the most introverted persons there is, IRL... consistently scoring near the maximum points in Introversion psych tests, lol. I really have a lot in common with Oz, I guess. I suppose you and me'd drive each other up the wall regularly if we hung out IRL. 😛

I do get part of how what you're annoyed about with intros related to the BHD. It's not the introversion itself that rubs me the wrong way about him, but the way in which the results of his thought processes, the moment he shares them, are so often "my way or the highway" decisions over the top of other peep's heads even when they immediately and massively influence their lives. That not just introversion, that's full on selfishness and hybris (for all his depression, the BHD is still exceedingly full of himself).

While I, too, tend to share the end results of my thought processes more readily than talking about them in the making, I however put those end results out for debate then, and it's very rare (nowadays, at least, that used to be different :blush: ) that I won't budge if I run into solid counterarguments; there's very few things left about which I consider my own approach to be the only logical/ethical/workable way to go. That's (one of) the things where I think I've massively outgrown the crappy BHDness of my own former self. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

I like that. I like that you have to KNOW him to understand him. That's the best thing about people, getting to know them and finding out what makes them tick.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aVbJhg23Ao[/ame]


(No sarcasm there, Lyri. You just brought to mind a song from one of my all time favorite musicals)

I've never been particularly comfortable around people who are total extroverts, simply because there's no mystery and challenge about them. It's like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. Life SHOULD involve dealing with, at least a few mysteries. (And most of us introverts actually do have really sweet centers, once you get to them. Personally, I've always been partial to the ones full of nuts. That's why I like Miss K so much.)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Okay, so not lame, less dynamic. I just thought Angel was the most dynamic character (aside from the Mayor) on Buffy. My point is still that it was a disservice watching his show first, and then watching him on Buffy secondary. I couldnt wait until Angel showed up, which honestly, was not many episodes. Was he what he was on his own show? No. But we had no way of recognizing what Angel would become, just who he was at the moment. No one knew who Willow would become, but does that make her character less dynamic in the earlier seasons?

 

[The Arcane]

I have major problems with the character of Angel, mainly concerning the difficulty I have in placing blame on which part of his extremely fractured personality is responsible for any one of his particular decisions or actions. I've always found that he was too quick to blame 'Angelus' for the bad stuff. That he used this almost imaginary second personality to make himself feel better about all the crap he had done.

The reason that I say that is because all my opinions about this particular character or tainted by the fact that he constantly manages to prove to me that he has no real strength of character. Lots of good intentions but with little ability to make them happen. Don't get me wrong. I like Angel. Or, more accurately, I want to like Angel. I'm just never quite sure who 'Angel' is, because I don't believe Angel himself knows that for a fact. As proven by how quickly he was able to be manipulated by Twilight.

In answer to the question, yeah, I'd have to say that Angel has always appeared somewhat lame to me. Not so much in comparison to Angelus though. More in how he has dealt with the challenges put in front of him. Or not dealt with them, I suppose.

 

[white avenger]

Okay, so not lame, less dynamic. I just thought Angel was the most dynamic character (aside from the Mayor) on Buffy.

I would agree with you if you were referring to AngelUS on Buffy's show, but as far as Angel, himself, is concerned, and this has nothing whatsoever to do with which ship that I support, he was always just Buffy's side kick, most powerful soldier, and most loyal supporter. He wasn't even her Second In command. I agree that he always had the POTENTIAL to be the dynamic, heroic character that he eventually became, but like all Potentials, he wasn't actually Called until ATS Season 1. And even then, he was a hero only in his own sphere of existence. Buffy was the one who saved the world. Apocalypses were her specialty. Angel helped the helpless. No less heroic, just not on as grand a scale.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

he was always just Buffy's side kick

But see, I never saw him as that. He wasn't a Scooby. He was he equal. And she treated him that way. I never saw him as being the same as a Xander, Cordy or Willow. And that is part of the reason he was not featured in many episodes (until Angelus), because he was Buffys equal, and it was Buffys show, not his.

 

[white avenger]

He wasn't a Scooby. He was her equal. And she treated him that way.

Granted, he wasn't the guy that always got sent to buy the doughnuts, but Buffy seeing him as her equal doesn't necessarily mean that he was portrayed that way, or at least I didn't see it. But, again, I'm not saying that Angel WASN'T manly or heroic when he was in Sunnydale as much as I'm saying that he was portrayed as being more so on his own show, which I never bothered to watch until after "Buffy" was concluded. After that, I went back and watched Season 3, then the four seasons of his own show .over the summer so that I would know what Season 5 was going to be about.

Looking at Angel during Season 3 of "Buffy," then seeing him in Season 1 of his own show, I could definitely see the change, and it became much more obvious through the next 4 seasons.

 

[Icarium]

But see, I never saw him as that. He wasn't a Scooby. He was he equal. And she treated him that way.

Of course Angel was a Scooby. Whenever he wasn't busy murdering people or not bothering to help for some other reason (which was the case for most of S1-3 actually), that is. As for being Buffy's equal - how many times did he challenge Buffy's decisions? I can't really think of many examples, while I can for Xander or Giles, who were generally a lot more helpful to her than Angel too.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

not bothering to help for some other reason (which was the case for most of S1-3 actually), that is.

Thats why I say he wasn't a scooby.

how many times did he challenge Buffy's decisions? I can't really think of many examples

What does challenging Buffy have to do with being equal. I basically thought Angel was like Jonathan was in that one episode. The slayer ran around doing her thing, but he was there in case she needed more help. But both kinda on the same level.

 

[StarSlayer]

To answer the OP's question, no. I don't think Angel is lame and I never found him to be lame, not even on BtVS. Sure, I'll quote the Buffybot when the opportunity presents itself and joke about Angel being lame, but it's only in good fun. 🙂 But, Angel is not lame. Not by a long-shot. However, I do find him vastly more interesting and more complex on his own show.

Riley though...hehe 😉

 

[Icarium]

I basically thought Angel was like Jonathan was in that one episode. The slayer ran around doing her thing, but he was there in case she needed more help. But both kinda on the same level.

And why exactly does this disqualify Angel as a Scooby? Is it because of being "too helpful" to qualify as merely a sidekick? That's a rather weird criterion, especially considering that Angel wasn't all that useful in practice, compared to non-superpowered people.

Thats why I say he wasn't a scooby.

So he wasn't a Scooby because he didn't help in every episode? Well, then you shouldn't count Cordelia either.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So he wasn't a Scooby because he didn't help in every episode? Well, then you shouldn't count Cordelia either.

No, it wasnt because he didnt help in every episode, it was more about his mood and tone.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

And why exactly does this disqualify Angel as a Scooby?

It doesn't, it was to illustrate the reason why I saw him as different to a Scooby and not one of the clique.


Ah.. maybe it depends on how you define Scooby and what it was to be a Scooby. I said before I never considered Giles a Scooby either and was argued about that as well.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

There were times where I thought to myself "he's such a sissy!" Like in "What's my line" when he was waiting for Buffy in her bedroom, holding on to her piggy, looking like a scared little boy ("you scared me"). He became much more manly on Ats.

 

[This Year's Girl]

There were times where I thought to myself "he's such a sissy!" Like in "What's my line" when he was waiting for Buffy in her bedroom, holding on to her piggy, looking like a scared little boy ("you scared me"). He became much more manly on Ats.

I liked scared Angel. I thought it was his best moments in Btvs when he acted like that. I don't think he became more manly in Angel. I don't think there is something that is "manly". That's just cultural values pushed upon someone. But if I should go after the sterotype I to a large extent don't think Angel fit that one.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I liked scared Angel. I thought it was his best moments in Btvs when he acted like that. I don't think he became more manly in Angel. I don't think there is something that is "manly". That's just cultural values pushed upon someone. But if I should go after the sterotype I to a large extent don't think Angel fit that one.

I meant those times when he wasn't manly, he was actually like a little boy. But it could also be DB's acting. It was weird sometimes. And it seemed a little out of character to me.

 

[Doppelgang]

I've never been a big fan of the Buffy/Angel relationship, because I felt it was a bit of an outdated type of love story and just a bit too sentimental for my taste, and only in that way would I go along with jokes about Angel being lame, but aside from that the whole Angel/Angelus character and story is very interesting in its own right.

I'm a spuffy fan all the way, but that for me means embracing everything spuffy related in Buffy, it doesn't mean attacking everything Bangel related. The Spike/Buffy relationship is more harsh and realistic, it has more of an edge to it, and it has someone looking for genuine redemption through the relationship which makes for a great story that lasts throughout Buffy, whereas I felt the Buffy/Angel story ran out of steam quite early on.

 

[Kean]

Ahem...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkItaORaLuU&feature=related[/ame]


:whistle: