Is Angel Lame?

[white avenger]

This is inspired bt the thread that proposed that Spike became more lame after Season 3. This is NOT a Spike/Angel debate, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Spuffy/Bangel, the question is, simply:

Do you think that Angel is more lame than Angelus, or that Angel is a less interesting character as his feelings for Buffy develop?

As for myself, while I fail to see any particular lameness in the character, I do feel that he became more dynamic and heroic once he got away from Sunnydale and out from under Buffy's thumb.

 

[Tillow4ever]

Totally agreed. I loved him in his own show. His own town. He was a hero there. I liked it much better than when he was in Sunnydale with Buffy.

 

[Misty]

Angel was less interesting when he was on Buffy and way more interesting when he got his own show.

 

[zobothehobo]

I hate Angel. I do think he's really lame. This whole "Oh god I did so much evil, oh god" thing he's got going on is awful. And as I explained on this board before (and then people told me I didn't have any idea how vampires in the buffyverse worked) I'm pretty sure it goes like this... when Spike and Angel got their souls back, they got William and Liam's souls back... Liam was a jerk... Angelus was a murderous jerk... Angel was a guy who was a jerk who didn't want to be a jerk. He knew he was a jerk and a murder in the past he was terrified of becoming that person again... and then he became that person again time and time again EVEN WITH HIS SOUL (the W&H people, Twilight, etc)... and it was like we knew in the end the evil would win out with Angel... And again, that to me was the message of the end of Ats... the whole "would you rather live as a monster, or die as a good man" thing... it just got frustrating. I want to believe in my heroes... not know they're going to fail even though they try really hard not to.

 

[frankie]

I think it's Angel's quest for redemption that makes him a bit lame, since he didn't do anything wrong. Liam was dead, a demon took over his body and memories and did some horrible things. Of course it sucks to be left with the images and memories of that demon's evil deeds and he is right to use it as a motivation to do good, but he didn't kill all those people. Spike gets a soul and seems at ease with the fact that it wasn't him. I liked Angel a lot better in his own show and think Cordy was a constant reminder that Angel and the demon were different. It does get a little tiresome hearing him mope over things that he didn't do, yet show little or no remorse for the bad stuff he did do with a soul - Twilight, Drogyn, Lindsey, Feeding on Buffy, wiping peoples minds, locking people in a cellar with Dru and Darla. Because of this, yup, I think he's a little lame.

 

[Ricia]

I hate Angel. I do think he's really lame. This whole "Oh god I did so much evil, oh god" thing he's got going on is awful. And as I explained on this board before (and then people told me I didn't have any idea how vampires in the buffyverse worked) I'm pretty sure it goes like this... when Spike and Angel got their souls back, they got William and Liam's souls back... Liam was a jerk... Angelus was a murderous jerk... Angel was a guy who was a jerk who didn't want to be a jerk. He knew he was a jerk and a murder in the past he was terrified of becoming that person again... and then he became that person again time and time again EVEN WITH HIS SOUL (the W&H people, Twilight, etc)... and it was like we knew in the end the evil would win out with Angel... And again, that to me was the message of the end of Ats... the whole "would you rather live as a monster, or die as a good man" thing... it just got frustrating. I want to believe in my heroes... not know they're going to fail even though they try really hard not to.

But see to me that's what's interesting about Angel. He's a horrible person, trying very hard not to be a horrible person. Really, isn't that what most of us are? I think what makes Angel lamer with Buffy then without, is his reasons for struggling against himself. Without her, he does it for himself and that's easier to identify with.

 

[zobothehobo]

But see to me that's what's interesting about Angel. He's a horrible person, trying very hard not to be a horrible person. Really, isn't that what most of us are? I think what makes Angel lamer with Buffy then without, is his reasons for struggling against himself. Without her, he does it for himself and that's easier to identify with.

But that's not an interesting story. I don't want to watch a story about a horrible person trying to be a good person. I don't like my heroes to be horrible people. Like I said, I want to believe in my heroes... not know they're going to fail. And I don't generally respond well to horrible people at all. I don't like bad people. It was hard for me to get to a place with Buffy where I could pick a favorite villain because I don't like bad people.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Well, he does like Barry Manilow...


lol jk. 😛 No, I don't think he's "lame" at all. There's times when he's woefully out of touch with the world (like when he suggests giving Connor an allowance of fifty cents...lmao!) and he's got weird taste in music, but he's not lame. He's doing the hero thing. 😀

I personally liked him a lot better on AtS than BtVS, but I disagree that that was because Buffy was no longer in his life. To an extent, maybe, but I'd argue that he evolved as a character because he finally found his mission. Buffy's mission is about saving the world. Angel's on AtS is about saving souls. And once that's established, there's a lot more room for exploring Angel's purpose and characterization than there was before.

 

[Ricia]

But that's not an interesting story. I don't want to watch a story about a horrible person trying to be a good person. I don't like my heroes to be horrible people. Like I said, I want to believe in my heroes... not know they're going to fail. And I don't generally respond well to horrible people at all. I don't like bad people. It was hard for me to get to a place with Buffy where I could pick a favorite villain because I don't like bad people.

That's where you and I differ. I find truly good people boring and unrealistic. How is it more interesting if you know they're going to win? The thing is, the struggle isn't about winning, it's about fighting. It's about fighting even if you're doomed. It's about never giving up.

 

[WakingNightmare]

Yes. Angel is beyond lame. It's really not his fault though. It's because the brooding and tortured vampire that hates the evil creature inside of him has become ridiculously overused, that anyone who tries it is lame. But, thankfully, we have Cordelia, who helps him step out of the sterotype every now and then 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

That's where you and I differ. I find truly good people boring and unrealistic. How is it more interesting if you know they're going to win? The thing is, the struggle isn't about winning, it's about fighting. It's about fighting even if you're doomed. It's about never giving up.

I got cut off on my rep... like I said, I don't like to route for someone unless I want to know them. It's not about knowing they're going to win... it's about liking who they are. I don't like watching a bad person fight with himself to be good because at the end of the day, he's a bad person. Why should I care about the fight? What matters is what is. That's why I have such a big problem with "if nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do." That's a pretty big if. What we do DOES matter. Who we are DOES matter. Angel being a jerk DOES matter. I get the point trying to be made by Angel's journey... but I don't take to it.

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

Yes. Angel is beyond lame. It's really not his fault though. It's because the brooding and tortured vampire that hates the evil creature inside of him has become ridiculously overused, that anyone who tries it is lame. But, thankfully, we have Cordelia, who helps him step out of the sterotype every now and then 😀

Oh please. Cordy was even lamer. Rich Bitch girl in high school goes through a transition and cares SO MUCH about everyone and everything!!!! God... give me a break. I HATED what they did to Cordelia's character. I know that's an unpopular opinion... but come on her storyline is SO overdone.

*waits for the neg rep to come pouring in*

 

[WakingNightmare]

Rich Bitch girl in high school goes through a transition and cares SO MUCH about everyone and everything!!!! God... give me a break. I HATED what they did to Cordelia's character. I know that's an unpopular opinion... but come on her storyline is SO overdone.

It actually does sound pretty crap on paper like that. That's basically the subplot of every crappy teen movie ever. But I think the actual journey for Cordelia was done well. She matured a great deal without losing her Cordy charm. It is incredibly different. It's not like she did a total 180 and it's not like she did it over night.

 

[Marisa]

Oh please. Cordy was even lamer. Rich Bitch girl in high school goes through a transition and cares SO MUCH about everyone and everything!!!! God... give me a break. I HATED what they did to Cordelia's character. I know that's an unpopular opinion... but come on her storyline is SO overdone.

*waits for the neg rep to come pouring in*

I just want to say I hope Cordy would change. If she was still a bitch just like in high school I would look down on Joss for A)Writing her character so bad that she didn't have any growth. B) Making me suffer through it.
I think to say she got lamer is kind of wrong but everyone is entitled to their own opinions I just don't agree with it.
Like I said I don't think Cordy ever lost her "bitch" side of her all the way I think she grew and wasn't insecure and didn't need to use it as much. In sunnydale she was a teen to be acting those teen like ways later on in Angel would be very weird to see to me and quite frankly make her look bad in my eyes which I would never want to happen to Cordy because I love her.

Now back to the question
I loved Angel on Buffy granted he did get a little repetitive and except for season 2 Angelus didn't seem to get to much character development. Angel on his own show was not lame. I am one of the people who loves Angel and Spike. Not to throw them together. I am just saying on Angel he got to develop and really get into his character. Then again it was his own show so if he didn't that would be kind of awkward to watch.

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

But that's not an interesting story. I don't want to watch a story about a horrible person trying to be a good person. I don't like my heroes to be horrible people. Like I said, I want to believe in my heroes... not know they're going to fail. And I don't generally respond well to horrible people at all. I don't like bad people. It was hard for me to get to a place with Buffy where I could pick a favorite villain because I don't like bad people.

Then wouldn't you not like Spike? He was as evil as they come. He like Angel took time to change. Just asking because he was a villain for a while there so i am kind of confused on that one.

 

[Abby27]

Angel was one of my favorite characters from the very beginning. I loved his idea of redemption. But as time went on, and he kept killing and hurting people, and especially when he became CEO of W&H and thought he had the right to decide to kill Drogyn in his plan to better the world...and then not to mention the whole Twilight business..for me, his attitude went from wanting to atone for his sins and do some good to this sense of entitlement, like he could call the shots and decide what was best for the better good because he was the special, chosen one. It really turned me off. And now after

Spoiler

Angel killed Giles in S8,

I'm officially off the "Angel Fan" wagon and wished he would just go away.

So after everything...yes...I think he is lame.

 

[zobothehobo]

I just want to say I hope Cordy would change. If she was still a bitch just like in high school I would look down on Joss for A)Writing her character so bad that she didn't have any growth. B) Making me suffer through it.
I think to say she got lamer is kind of wrong but everyone is entitled to their own opinions I just don't agree with it.
Like I said I don't think Cordy ever lost her "bitch" side of her all the way I think she grew and wasn't insecure and didn't need to use it as much. In sunnydale she was a teen to be acting those teen like ways later on in Angel would be very weird to see to me and quite frankly make her look bad in my eyes which I would never want to happen to Cordy because I love her.

I don't wish Cordy didn't grow. I just don't like how they made her grow. When they had her dad cheat on his taxes and lose everything, it became a laughable storyline to me. Cordy's transition did kind of feel forced to me... They made her act like she was 28 when she was 18. Well more 19... but still. And she didn't lose her "bitch" side completely, no... but that's not my problem. My problem is that her storyline (the person who couldn't care less at the beginning being the person who couldn't care more at the end) is so overdone it's ridiculous. That and I felt they made her take GIANT CRAZY leaps of maturity and age just because.

Then wouldn't you not like Spike? He was as evil as they come. He like Angel took time to change. Just asking because he was a villain for a while there so i am kind of confused on that one.

Because I know this thread isn't about Spike and it isn't a Spike vs. Angel thread, I'm going to try to keep this short (yes, this length is a short explanation for this topic for me) Spike was not as evil as they come. Angelus was. Like I've said on this board before, Spike being the second most evil vampire in the world never really worked for me. Even on my first watch, before I saw the good man he could be in the later seasons... I knew calling him the second most evil vampire in history was a stretch. I mean come on... The second most evil vampire in history helped save the world. Nevermind that he did it "for selfish reasons" (which by the way is the only way anyone ever does anything if you twist it right), he helped Buffy save the world in season 2. I always liked Spike. From the first time we saw him... the "Home Sweet Home" in School Hard was "wow this guy is kinds BA. haha He'll give Buffy a run for her money, I bet!" Then we saw him when Dru walked in... and I thought "wow. BA, yet has a sweet, kind, beautiful lover's heart. That's my kind of guy." Yes, I liked him when he was a villain... but I still wanted to meet him. I mean, I didn't want him to eat me... but he was kind when he wanted to be, and he really wasn't all that evil. And after Angelus came... I didn't really think of Spike ever as that much of a villain. I know someone's going to say I'm "fanwaking" or whatever... because they always do... but after he helped Buffy in season 2, he really always felt to me like a good guy at heart putting on the guise of a tough bad guy because when you're a good guy, it's too easy to lose, fail, and get hurt. Turns out, I was right. 🙂

 

[Marisa]

I don't wish Cordy didn't grow. I just don't like how they made her grow. When they had her dad cheat on his taxes and lose everything, it became a laughable storyline to me. Cordy's transition did kind of feel forced to me... They made her act like she was 28 when she was 18. Well more 19... but still. And she didn't lose her "bitch" side completely, no... but that's not my problem. My problem is that her storyline (the person who couldn't care less at the beginning being the person who couldn't care more at the end) is so overdone it's ridiculous. That and I felt they made her take GIANT CRAZY leaps of maturity and age just because.

I didn't feel that way so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I just don't get what is wrong with her caring more it is like it is a downfall which is the opposite imo.

Because I know this thread isn't about Spike and it isn't a Spike vs. Angel thread, I'm going to try to keep this short (yes, this length is a short explanation for this topic for me) Spike was not as evil as they come. Angelus was. Like I've said on this board before, Spike being the second most evil vampire in the world never really worked for me. Even on my first watch, before I saw the good man he could be in the later seasons... I knew calling him the second most evil vampire in history was a stretch. I mean come on... The second most evil vampire in history helped save the world. Nevermind that he did it "for selfish reasons" (which by the way is the only way anyone ever does anything if you twist it right), he helped Buffy save the world in season 2. I always liked Spike. From the first time we saw him... the "Home Sweet Home" in School Hard was "wow this guy is kinds BA. haha He'll give Buffy a run for her money, I bet!" Then we saw him when Dru walked in... and I thought "wow. BA, yet has a sweet, kind, beautiful lover's heart. That's my kind of guy." Yes, I liked him when he was a villain... but I still wanted to meet him. I mean, I didn't want him to eat me... but he was kind when he wanted to be, and he really wasn't all that evil. And after Angelus came... I didn't really think of Spike ever as that much of a villain. I know someone's going to say I'm "fanwaking" or whatever... because they always do... but after he helped Buffy in season 2, he really always felt to me like a good guy at heart putting on the guise of a tough bad guy because when you're a good guy, it's too easy to lose, fail, and get hurt. Turns out, I was right. 🙂

I can see your points. I still feel Spike was a villain he may have been a nicer one but at that point he was not a good guy completely. I understand seeing him as a good person I thought it was nice of him to hold up his end of the bargain but he still did kill just like Angel/Angelus so he was still evil to me I don't know. But yeah need to get back on topic before we make this a thread about everybody but Angel.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Because I know this thread isn't about Spike and it isn't a Spike vs. Angel thread, I'm going to try to keep this short (yes, this length is a short explanation for this topic for me) Spike was not as evil as they come. Angelus was. Like I've said on this board before, Spike being the second most evil vampire in the world never really worked for me. Even on my first watch, before I saw the good man he could be in the later seasons... I knew calling him the second most evil vampire in history was a stretch. I mean come on... The second most evil vampire in history helped save the world. Nevermind that he did it "for selfish reasons" (which by the way is the only way anyone ever does anything if you twist it right), he helped Buffy save the world in season 2. I always liked Spike. From the first time we saw him... the "Home Sweet Home" in School Hard was "wow this guy is kinds BA. haha He'll give Buffy a run for her money, I bet!" Then we saw him when Dru walked in... and I thought "wow. BA, yet has a sweet, kind, beautiful lover's heart. That's my kind of guy." Yes, I liked him when he was a villain... but I still wanted to meet him. I mean, I didn't want him to eat me... but he was kind when he wanted to be, and he really wasn't all that evil. And after Angelus came... I didn't really think of Spike ever as that much of a villain. I know someone's going to say I'm "fanwaking" or whatever... because they always do... but after he helped Buffy in season 2, he really always felt to me like a good guy at heart putting on the guise of a tough bad guy because when you're a good guy, it's too easy to lose, fail, and get hurt. Turns out, I was right. 🙂

Spike didn't do any of that for Buffy. He did it for himself. He didn't do it because he was a good guy he did it because he didn't want to compete with Angel. He wanted Angel dead. I know you said Nevermind that, but it's kind of a huge point to just write off. Its like saying Willow killed warren she's an evil horrible bitca and deserves to die oh but nevermind the fact she killed the man who killed the love of life. Thats not important. You can't just write stuff off that doesn't fit your argument.

Spike was evil. I don't understand how you can say all the evil things he did weren't as bad as Angelus. He killed two slayers. Murdered people with railroad spikes. Just because we didn't see it on screen doesn't make what he did any less evil.

Angel spent years in LA doing good. Helping people. He gave up his humanity to keep saving the world, he lost everyone he loved in the process, his friends, his family, the loves of his life. He saved countless lives, but none of that matters because he's such a horrible person? How is he a horrible person? But Spike is a saint? Spike murdered and raped countless people, as did Angelus. They both got their souls back. They both tried to make amends. I think you're turning a blind eye to the good Angel did so you can keep spike on a pedestal. I love them both, despite the horror they BOTH did, and because of the good they BOTH did!

 

[msfantastico87]

Angel spent years in LA doing good. Helping people. He gave up his humanity to keep saving the world, he lost everyone he loved in the process, his friends, his family, the loves of his life. He saved countless lives, but none of that matters because he's such a horrible person? How is he a horrible person? But Spike is a saint? Spike murdered and raped countless people, as did Angelus. They both got their souls back. They both tried to make amends. I think you're turning a blind eye to the good Angel did so you can keep spike on a pedestal. I love them both, despite the horror they BOTH did, and because of the good they BOTH did!

This! 10000x this! I really couldn't have said it better myself. I especially agree with this piece:

I think you're turning a blind eye to the good Angel did so you can keep spike on a pedestal. I love them both, despite the horror they BOTH did, and because of the good they BOTH did!

EDIT: Just wanted to add, that there will always be a Angel vs Spike lameness thing going on. I think a lot of times, people that love Spuff together as opposed to Bangel tend to hate Angel, and vice versa. I, on the other hand, don't see it that way. I believe Angel wasn't lame, even though I don't like him with Buffy. Ya know what I mean?

 

[zobothehobo]

I didn't feel that way so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I just don't get what is wrong with her caring more it is like it is a downfall which is the opposite imo.

It's not THAT she cares more... it's how much. I don't expect others to get it.. it's just my personal issue with Cordy.

I can see your points. I still feel Spike was a villain he may have been a nicer one but at that point he was not a good guy completely. I understand seeing him as a good person I thought it was nice of him to hold up his end of the bargain but he still did kill just like Angel/Angelus so he was still evil to me I don't know. But yeah need to get back on topic before we make this a thread about everybody but Angel.

I know he wasn't a good guy completely. I didn't meant to say he was... What I meant was, at times, even when he was evil... he felt like a good guy.

Spike didn't do any of that for Buffy. He did it for himself. He didn't do it because he was a good guy he did it because he didn't want to compete with Angel. He wanted Angel dead. I know you said Nevermind that, but it's kind of a huge point to just write off. Its like saying Willow killed warren she's an evil horrible bitca and deserves to die oh but nevermind the fact she killed the man who killed the love of life. Thats not important. You can't just write stuff off that doesn't fit your argument.

How are they the same thing? I didn't mean to write it off because it's not important to the story... I meant a vampire who is considered the second most evil vampire ever helped save the world. That's something to note. Ignoring the fact that it was for selfish reasons... he helped save the world. That's got to tell you something about Spike's character. And Willow killing Warren tells you something about hers. Willow can't be a completely 100% good guy either. She killed a man... and tried to end the world. Ignoring why, she did those things and therefore can't be considered 100% good.

Spike was evil. I don't understand how you can say all the evil things he did weren't as bad as Angelus. He killed two slayers. Murdered people with railroad spikes. Just because we didn't see it on screen doesn't make what he did any less evil.

I think I didn't say what I meant clearly... I didn't mean Spike wasn't evil. He was. Of course he was... I meant he wasn't ALL evil. Angelus was 100% evil. Spike wasn't. I'm sorry, but in my eyes... he wasn't. (And I included the in my eyes because I know 99.9% of people don't see it that way, and that's fine. I don't expect others to)

Angel spent years in LA doing good. Helping people. He gave up his humanity to keep saving the world, he lost everyone he loved in the process, his friends, his family, the loves of his life. He saved countless lives, but none of that matters because he's such a horrible person? How is he a horrible person? But Spike is a saint? Spike murdered and raped countless people, as did Angelus. They both got their souls back. They both tried to make amends. I think you're turning a blind eye to the good Angel did so you can keep spike on a pedestal. I love them both, despite the horror they BOTH did, and because of the good they BOTH did!

I didn't say Angel never did anything good. I wouldn't say that because I know it's not true. Like I said in my first post in this thread:

As I explained on this board before (and then people told me I didn't have any idea how vampires in the buffyverse worked) I'm pretty sure it goes like this... when Spike and Angel got their souls back, they got William and Liam's souls back... Liam was a jerk... Angelus was a murderous jerk... Angel was a guy who was a jerk who didn't want to be a jerk. He knew he was a jerk and a murder in the past he was terrified of becoming that person again... and then he became that person again time and time again EVEN WITH HIS SOUL (the W&H people, Twilight, etc)... and it was like we knew in the end the evil would win out with Angel... And again, that to me was the message of the end of Ats... the whole "would you rather live as a monster, or die as a good man" thing... it just got frustrating.

I don't mean Angel was JUST a bad guy... I mean Angel was always fighting with the evil in him... that was the whole point Angel's constantly fighting the good and the bad in him... but we saw the bad win out so many times... and after a certain point, it became clear to at least me... that the evil was always going to win out with him. And once again, I back that up with the end of Ats... which to me is the "would you rather live as a monster or die as a good man" thing... He ended it on his own terms so he would go out as a good guy instead of the evil wining the fight in the end. Which was nice... But that kind of ending only exists when the evil wins out with the character in question.

I don't think I'm saying anything all that clearly tonight.. I'm having trouble converting my thoughts and feelings to words...

 

[WakingNightmare]

Hey, guys could we try and keep this on topic? Like White Avenger says in his original post, let's not turn this into a Spike versus Angel thing, cause it just aint fair on broody 😉 Spike really shouldn't have a place here.

Already said my part on this: Angel was a classic example of the tortured vampire stereotype on Buffy and he was basically defined by that and that only. Getting away from Buffy, interacting with humans, having a family were all things that helped Angel become a man.

(This post makes it sound like I like him, doesn't it?)