Is Buffy like Faith?

Black Eye Guy

Black Eye Guy

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I just bought season 2 of Buffy (I bought my DVD's in a very weird order) and I was rewatching through the eps, and I noticed in When she was Bad how much like Faith, Buffy was, especially the part where she was beating up that training dummy, and Giles is telling her to stop but she wont because she is caught up in the moment, Luckily though Buffy was saved by her friends and life went on.
Buffy became like that because all the Slayer stuff built up, and you would think that Buffy should have understood what Faith was going through, Faith had the exact same situation when she first met Buffy, she was beating up a vampire and could not even hear Buffy. So obviously Faith was in the same frame of mind after seeing her watcher get killed as Buffy was after she was killed, So you would think that Buffy would have had a little more understanding for Faith, because she went through something similar.
 
T
Tucker's Cousin
Good thread!
I think the reason that Buffy still did not accept Faith's behavior, even after she herself exhibited the same behavior was because Buffy overcame it and Faith really didn't. It took Faith a long time to get over her baggage, and I think that is where the hotility comes from.
 
Yeah I really agree that Buffy should have more patience with Faith, she should be able to understand her. And yeah, Faith didn't get over it, and Faith didn't have the friends that Buffy had so it was way harder for her (and so on, you've heard this a thousand times). But maybe that's exactly why she had such a hard time accepting Faith? At least I know that the things that I usually can't stand when it comes to other people, are the same things I hate (or am insecure about) about myself. So yeah, that's what I always thought, sort of..
 
Buffy should have had more patience with Faith but I don't think she could help it. Buffy didn't understand Faith that well and saw what Faith was doing as wrong.
 
The "Buffy is really like Faith and vice versa"-concept is used a lot throught the show, IMO. In the episode 'The Wish' we see it very clearly, where Buffy isn't really Buffy but more Faithlike with the attitude and the clothes... uhm. Everytime it seems like Buffy's loosing it, we see some Faith in her.
Sometimes I think of Faith and Buffy as two different aspects of the same person, aka a slayer. Faith is the "bad" part, the part that is dark and not so controlled. Though both Faith and Buffy have equally amounts of those qualities in them. Different circumstances makes them act on these qualities differently.
 
A lil on/off topic but I am so sick of all the "Poor Faith" arguments. Willow had it right in Choices.

It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Now you have no one. You were a Slayer and now you're nothing. You're just a big selfish, worthless waste.
Click to expand...

Buffy could only understand so much because Buffy also made a choice but hers didn't involve killing lots of people.
 
K
Kimm
I agree with you 100%
Referring to what doppelganer said about Buffy being Faithlike in the wish. You need to remember that isn't the Buffy we all know and love. If it wasn't for the love and support of family and friends that's what Buffy would be like but you need to look at what really happens Buffy does have that support.
 
Yeah but Faith didn't have family and friends. So, Buffy without family and friends would've been a lot like Faith is. Perhaps Faith with family and friends would've been a lot like Buffy. Which would have made them alike under the same circumstances.

Prophecy Girl: I see what you're saying and I understand Willow for feeling that way but I don't think it's entirely true. Faith didn't exactly make a choice to kill lots of people. We know she killed some people, but when she made that "choice" a lot off stuff had already happened. It's not like she really wanted to make that choice. For her it was like she had no choice, like this was the only way. It might not have been, but because of how troubled she was at that point, it looked like that to her.
 
Re: Buffy in 'The Wish', I agree with Epo. Cause that's just what I was saying in my previous post: Buffy and Faith are basically the same, they are after all slayers, born with qualities that come with being a slayer. I think Joss is trying to tell us, over and over again, that friends and family are more important to how we act than we think.

And Re: What Prophecy Girl said, I yet again have to agree with Epo. When we first see Faith in 'Faith, Hope & Trick' she's really just very scared and kinda on-her-own-and-very-lonely-y and very grateful that Kakistos turned to dust. And that all of the sudden she got friends and a fellow slayer. She wasn't all hatchety-murdery as she was in the end of season 3. So far so good. But, and it's a big BUT, things got pretty ugly between her and Buffy and before that, Willow saw her best friend dumping her for someone else.
When Faith killed deputy Finch, we need to remember that she didn't know him let alone know that he was human and not a vampire. So what led to her going all psycho wasn't something that she could choose.
And blah blah blah, long story short; Willow was, for more than just one reason, not so pleased with Faith and therefor got mean in a way she knew would really hurt Faith (did that make any sense?)
 
E
eponinethen
Yay, you agree with me :) lol
Some excellent points have been made. I think the actual "choice" that Faith made was to reject the offers of friendship that were constantly being made. Buffy is in the same headspace as Faith due to the trauma of her near-death experience courtesy of The Master. Even though she pushes her friends away initially in When She Was Bad, deep down she realises she needs them to heal and lets them back in. Faith on the other hand always pulled away from the others when things got bad and without that support she was unable to stop her spiral into a very dark place. She possibly didn't choose to kill lots of people, by that stage she was in a state where she was beyond choices, but had she chosen to accept the friendships being offered earlier she would have found her situations far easier to deal with and not sunk so low in the first place.
 
D
doppelgänger2
Here! Here!
She did accept their friendship at first, but eventually they moved away from her when buffy did because buffy started getting jealous, as did willow, whcih obviously lead to faith feeling rejected afterall in amends we see that even buffy doesn't really want to see faith unless she has to
 
Xin Rong said:
She did accept their friendship at first, but eventually they moved away from her when buffy did because buffy started getting jealous, as did willow, whcih obviously lead to faith feeling rejected afterall in amends we see that even buffy doesn't really want to see faith unless she has to
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True in Willow's case. She always seemed, to varying degrees, jealous of Buffy and Faith's slayer bond. And Buffy didn't really like sharing the limelight in the first half of Faith, Hope and Trick but then accepted Faith in understanding of her situation. I think everybody, except Willow, only rejected Faith after she'd already pushed them away a number of times. You give Amends as an example of Buffy not wanting to see Faith, but she's only like that because Faith basically told her to go fly a kite at the end of Revelations, their last previous "on air" interaction.

BUFFY: How are you?
FAITH: Five-by-five.
BUFFY: I'll interpret that as good.
Faith doesn't respond, but just continues paging through her magazine.
BUFFY: Look, Gwendolyn Post, or whoever she may be, had us all fooled.
Even Giles.
FAITH: (without looking up) Yeah, well, you can't trust people. I
should've learned that by now.
BUFFY: I realize this is gonna sound funny coming from someone that
just spent a lot of time kicking your face... but you can trust me.
FAITH: (looks up, amused) Is that right? (tosses the magazine aside)
BUFFY: I know I kept secrets, but I didn't have a choice. I'm on your
side.
FAITH: *I'm* on my side, (nods) and that's enough.
BUFFY: (shakes her head) Not always.
FAITH: (shrugs) Is that it?
BUFFY: Yeah, I guess.
FAITH: Alright. Well, then, I'll see you.
She averts her eyes and stares at the TV. Buffy takes the hint and
turns to go. Faith shakes her head, having a second thought.
FAITH: Uh, Buffy?
BUFFY: (faces her expectantly) Yeah?
Faith reconsiders again for a long moment, and changes her mind again.
FAITH: Nothing.
Buffy lowers her eyes, disappointed. Slowly she turns back to the door,
opens it and leaves.
 
Wanabee_slayer said:
If it wasn't for the love and support of family and friends that's what Buffy would be like but you need to look at what really happens Buffy does have that support.
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Faith ALSO had that love and support (not from family, of course, but certainly from friends), but she threw it away. She made that choice, as Willow states in Choices. Sure, she killed the Deputy Mayor.......it was an accident. She had the emotional support of Giles and Buffy afterward but she decided to bottle up all the bad feelings, leading to her eventually going 'rogue.'

eponinethen said:
Yeah but Faith didn't have family and friends.
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Again, maybe not loving family, but she did have friends.

eponinethen said:
Faith didn't exactly make a choice to kill lots of people. We know she killed some people, but when she made that "choice" a lot off stuff had already happened. It's not like she really wanted to make that choice. For her it was like she had no choice, like this was the only way. It might not have been, but because of how troubled she was at that point, it looked like that to her.
Click to expand...
Yes, she did make that choice....I see what you're saying....that she saw herself in a hopeless situation and the emotional turmoil she was in led her to believe that she was a horrible person....a basically "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality. She could have reached out for Buffy and Giles for help rather than going to the Mayor's office and applying for Trick's job, tho.

Tucker's Cousin said:
I think the actual "choice" that Faith made was to reject the offers of friendship that were constantly being made. Buffy is in the same headspace as Faith due to the trauma of her near-death experience courtesy of The Master. Even though she pushes her friends away initially in When She Was Bad, deep down she realises she needs them to heal and lets them back in. Faith on the other hand always pulled away from the others when things got bad and without that support she was unable to stop her spiral into a very dark place. She possibly didn't choose to kill lots of people, by that stage she was in a state where she was beyond choices, but had she chosen to accept the friendships being offered earlier she would have found her situations far easier to deal with and not sunk so low in the first place.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
I really don't think Faith and Buffy are alike at all....though I can see that there are some parallels drawn between them there is a HUGE difference between the two....

Sure Faith had a tough life but so have a lot of people and you don't see all of us running around killing people and acting like an idiot. I agree with Willow when she said to Faith "Boo hoo" ....whether or not you've been through hard times you are still accountable for your actions and you still have a choice. Faith was very capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Buffy has gone through some insanely hard times but we never saw her lose her sense of self respect and stoop to the level that Faith did.

I don't dislike Faith as a character on the show, in fact, I think she adds quite a lot to it and I really liked her role but to say that she is anywhere close to the type of person that Buffy is ....it's just not true in my opinion.
 
Yeah, I don't think that Buffy and Faith are anything alike, either. But I'm not so harsh on Faith like a lot of people are. They were both different people in different circumstances.
 
ProphecyGirl said:
A lil on/off topic but I am so sick of all the "Poor Faith" arguments. Willow had it right in Choices.

"It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Now you have no one. You were a Slayer and now you're nothing. You're just a big selfish, worthless waste. "



Buffy could only understand so much because Buffy also made a choice but hers didn't involve killing lots of people.
Click to expand...

I totally agree! I had forgotten about that conversation. I'm glad you brought this up, because I think that it really puts things into persepctive.
 
Basicly it all comes down to the fact that people deal with different situations in different ways. Obviously not everyone who have had a childhood/etc like Faith, starts killing people. It's just so not that simple. All I know is I'm pretty sure she didn't really want to do all that, 'cause it's pretty obvious she wasn't happy doing it. Yes, Faith had a chance of getting friends (Scoobie gang), and for reasons that were partly her fault and partly other people's (mostly Buffy's) fault, that never really happened. She didn't find anyone who got her. And I do feel sorry for her 'cause of that, but that doesn't mean I think she made the right choices and so on...

(God I feel like I've been saying this a million times, so sorry if I'm just repeating myself, my head is tired and wearing a large towel which makes it very heavy, lol.)
 
D
doppelgänger2
Haha, large towel!
I don't actually think that on the show they are alike, in some ways they are, however i do think that if buffy had been in faiths shoes all her life she would have ended up pretty similar to faith. but in reality they are completely different, buffy is an ideal, something to strive to be i suppose but again i dont think shes realistic, i dont think anyone is like her
Whereas faith is a lot more realistic cos to be honest if a real person became a slayer they probably would end up having a faith attitude, i can have what i want etc. So in terms or realisticness they are completely different
 
Faith was, is and will always be anti-Buffy. She was the darker Buffy, she is redempted but is not "light" as Buffy and will not be in the Buffy's league. Slayers like Buffy are more responsible and have more awareness about being a slayer (like Kendra), slayers like Faith are more skeptical about the role of the slayer (like Kennedy). In short, Buffy and Faith are in different leagues, call it different houses [reference to Harry Potter].
 
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