Is Buffy Really a Thief? Maybe Not. The Filesharing Argument.

I can't help noticing most people don't even notice it was Nazi Gold
Oh, I noticed.
Even made a karma quip about it.

I'll give you one (or two or three) further to think about.
Where was Willow and Kennedy based during Angel Season 5? South America, no? 'cept Andrew says they seem to be in Rio mostly. Party town that one is.

Where is it more than rumored that Nazis went to "get away from it all"? South America, no? Well, that's a funny coincidence.

Oh and say, didn't Willow have the ability Highlander style to feel everyone's emotions during Season 6? Perhaps there was some frustration about not being able to get at some old loot.

Now with Willow being Jewish and all, as she reminded us constantly, and this being Nazi gold... connection? Would Willow have told Buffy about some ill-gotten gains that were up for grabs?

You decide.
 
Okay, here's the conversation from Issue 10 concerning the bank heist:

Willow--So the mysterious benefactor bankrolling the Slayer army...

Buffy--It's all insured! It's a victimless crime! And we totally found a "watteau" the Nazis hid and sent it to the "tate" That happens in a minute. It's only money...

Willow--And money changes everything.This is where it starts, Buffy. What your enemies saw. Slayers acting above the law and endangering their most valuable possession: their possessions.

So, it's NOT Nazi gold that the Slayers are stealing from some hidden storage vault, it's the bank's funds, the savings of the bank's clients, at least some of whom could be assumed to be honest men and women. And making the insurance companies refund all or part of what was stolen is, in fact, stealing from the insurance companies and their investors.

That, at least for me, does not change the fact that stealing is stealing, regardless of who is being stolen from, but it does lower my opinion of Buffy and her people, because they stole, not from Nazi war criminals, but from the bank itself, its investors, the insurance companies, and THEIR investors.

Even the recovery of the Watteau (whatever that is) and their returning it to the "tate," (whatever THAT is) in no way justifies the Slayers using their powers to commit a crime. The fact that Buffy tries to justify her actions, in fact, puts her in exactly the same position as Faith was in Sunnydale. She's telling Willow, basically, "No, YOU don't understand. I DON'T CARE!"

Buffy, all of the Slayers who participated directly in the robbery, and anyone who assisted them in any way, are criminals.
 
Fun eh. Nothing like a good rationalization. OK, like on this one for instance...



Well it's my analogy, so yeah in a similar sense to the bank holding this gold it can't actually get at, the country of Caverovia has a law saying any treasure within it's borders belongs to it.

M'well... except that that analogy breaks because, in the case of the bank, all the stuff actually belongs to someone else, and the identity of that owner is known, and the fact that those owners have something stored in that bank is also known. See, that was the rationale that (f'r instance) the James boys used: big, huge, impersonal corporate bank, got all this money by foreclosings, unscrupulous dealings, etc, it's poetic justice if we take some of it away and give it to little poor guys (us...). But the reality is (and they knew it) that the vast majority of that money belonged to the bank's depositors, including little average guys who may have had their life savings in that account.

As far as the government having a "legal" claim against any lost treasure, well... that happens to be the case in some states, I believe. Notice that "theft" is a legal term as well as an ethical/moral one. If you take something that - by law - belongs to another, you stole it. It's as simple as that. Now, one can argue about whether such a "everything's mine because I say it is" law is right or not (I say not, even if it's here in the US, and the Supreme Court agreed in a lawsuit involving the Spanish galleon Atocha a few years ago,) but the fact remains that if you violate the law, legally, you're a criminal.

In this case though we know the way the evil dictator thing works. If he gets a hold of it we know the actual people of Caverovia will never see it. We know the treasure will go to the evil dictator, to enslave, rape, murder, and buy arms to terrorize his neighbors.

We know the drill from all the evil dictator movies we've seen. And when the hero is trying to sneak the gold out of the country we go, "Yay. Go hero. Get the gold."

Sure we do. I know I do. But the hero is still a thief, legally, morally, and ethically. Nothing changes that just because the theft might be in everybody's best interests (well, except for whoever lost their swag...)

Now with Buffy we go, "Oh bad Buffy. She's a thief. It's out of character." I suggest one reason for that is we're just not familiar with the Nazi gold thing. We can't pigeon hole it as the kind of theft we can give a moral thumbs up to. In fact I've read a lot of posts on this subject, and I can't help noticing most people don't even notice it was Nazi Gold, nor do they seem concerned as to exactly what that might mean.

Or, y'know, the fact that it's Nazi Gold is irrelevant to whether or not stealing it makes someone a thief. (Notice how those two words seem to kinda go together?) And, by the way, I didn't say it was out of character. Given the right set of circumstances, I think Buffy would totally Do That. I mean, she may not really be the Do-That Girl, but I believe that, for the most part, Buffy is capable of doing whatever she feels she has to do. So, no, it's not OOC; and frankly, that phrase has been used so much by Season 8's whining detractors that it's lost any claim to being an argument that can actually be taken seriously.

It isn't because there's a black and white moral determination on all theft. We've all seen movies where we cheer for the thief, and want him to get the loot. Some of them are more moral than Buffy. Ever seen Blood Diamond? The fisherman who steals the diamond gets it at the end, and we all go "Hurrah", cause he's a really good guy.

But he's still a thief. By definition.
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Edit:
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Watteau (whatever that is) ... the "tate," (whatever THAT is)

Painting (Watteau's the artist) ... museum.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Yeah, I just looked it up. But what's a "tate," and why return it to them/there?
I'm not getting into the debate but, just for your info WA, I imagine the 'Watteau' will be a painting by the French artist Antoine Watteau ( Antoine Watteau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) , which the slayers returned to the Tate Gallery - or Tate Britain as it is known these days ( Tate Britain: British Art from 1500 )


Yeah, my confusion was from the way the dialog was all printed, as it always is in comic books, in capital letters. Hard to tell proper names when they do that, and art's not my area of expertise anyhow. Thanks for the clarification.
 
The thing for me is that I don't feel the need to rationalise what Buffy has done. I'm not looking to justify her actions because I think she was 100% correct. You do what has to be done. Morals are all well and good when you are sat in a comfy chair judging the actions of others but when it's you that has to make the choices then morals are nothing but a hurdle to getting the job done.

Stealing is stealing. Absolutely true. Buffy is taking something that she wasn't legally entitled to have. Also true. Thing is that I don't care. Again, I'd do exactly the same thing.

Look at other heroes in other shows. In Supernatural the Winchesters have had to take a very hard line in their dealings with the recent demon invasion. How many of the humans they killed in the final episode of season 3 might have been saved with an exorcism? There was no way of knowing how badly they had been harmed by the demons inside them and it was quite possible that many might have survived the encounter, yet Dean and Sam made the call to use Ruby's knife and kill them outright. Is that demon killling or human murder? Both?

Morals change as your awareness changes. As a bystander to the world's evils it's too easy to say an action, be it stealing or killing, is wrong. Yet when you are made aware of what true evil is and to combat it you realise that you have to step over lines that society judges as wrong, how can you not do so? You can't defeat evil by pretending it's not a part of all of us. That guarantees you lose.
 
maybe she took Faiths advice ?

"When are you going to get this, B? Life for a Slayer is very simple -- want... take... have" Faith
 
Kemy
Kemy
Because what we really need from someone ou saving the world is for them to act like Faith. As Giles said, "The Earth is Doomed"
The thing for me is that I don't feel the need to rationalise what Buffy has done. I'm not looking to justify her actions because I think she was 100% correct. You do what has to be done. Morals are all well and good when you are sat in a comfy chair judging the actions of others but when it's you that has to make the choices then morals are nothing but a hurdle to getting the job done.

Stealing is stealing. Absolutely true. Buffy is taking something that she wasn't legally entitled to have. Also true. Thing is that I don't care. Again, I'd do exactly the same thing.

That's what I said. The topic asks the question "Is Buffy really a thief?", and there's really no "ifs", or "buts" about the answer to that simple question: by the definition of "thief", yes. Everything else - including everything you just posted, and what I said earlier (sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do) - is rationalizing or justifying that action.
 
Kemy my point is that Buffy is acting a bit Faith like taking what she wanted and not really caring , she did'nt even tell Willow because she knew it was wrong x
 
Yes, I know exactly what you meant. I just think its a terrible idea and in contradiction to the TV Buffy to have her basically turning into Faith and its becoming more evident shes turning more evil by the day.

She doesn't care that shes a criminal, a terrorist, endangering Humans, attacking them to steal from them, disregarding all that she doesn't see fit to acknowledge, emotionally and physically using someone who was in love with her with no intentions of making anything of it, telling it to their face right after sleeping with her, not caring that at some point she may have to come up against Humans in combat, and relishing the idea of taking them on and killing them to accomplish her cause.

ComicBuffy has gone off the deep end, and shes only going to make things worse.
 
Everything else - including everything you just posted, and what I said earlier (sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do) - is rationalizing or justifying that action.

Justifying, perhaps, but I tend to see rationalising as something you do for your own benefit. To justify actions in your own mind that you see as being wrong by giving them a higher moral purpose, if you like.

I'm happy to admit that Buffy is stealing but at the same time I'm equally happy to admit that I don't think she is wrong in doing so in the slightest. Therefore I don't feel I'm having to rationalise the actions. It's simply what I feel she was entitled to do. I'm not making any excuses for her actions, just agreeing with them.
 
isn't that the whole point of it everyone gets corrupted even saint Buffy??? With Power corruption is a definate blunder , it happens in everyones life at somepoint even in the Buffy comicverse x I agree not a good example for the slayettes but hey how else was she gonna survive? she can't get ppl to pay her for saving there lives can she but she can't act like god either theres no middle ground is there?
 
isn't that the whole point of it everyone gets corrupted even saint Buffy???

Is it corruption, though? Or just acceptance of the truth of the world she is fighting to save? I don't see her as becoming corrupt. I see her as having grown up.
 
How can she defend Humanity when shes abandoned her own? how can she stand up for principles shes turned her back on? Why does she think our way of life is worth fighting for when shes all but given it up to be what she is? How can she be the warrior of the people when she treats 'the people' as an obstacle to overcome, to be discarded and even killed if they get in her way?

Buffy isn't Human, shes part demon and its the half shes embraced for 8 years now, she treats Humans with great contempt and subverts everything Humanity stands for to "win" some war the men whose teachings she shuns and flies in the face of started millenia before she was born.
 
Kemy, you are mistaking humanity and principles with laws. Laws change based on the needs of those that rule at the time. A law is only as good as the society it protects and is as quick to change if that society no longer sees the need for it or, more often, if those in charge think it limits the effectiveness of their rule.

Buffy isn't a warrior of the law. She is simply a warrior who, thankfully, chooses to fight for the freedom of the innocents of the world against those that would destroy them. To do that she has come to realise that laws only matter to those that give a damn about them. The demons of the Buffyverse have even learned enough to understand that our laws are all they need to control us. Why do you think Wolfram and Hart exists? If Buffy fights within the law, she loses.
 
How can she defend Humanity when shes abandoned her own? how can she stand up for principles shes turned her back on? Why does she think our way of life is worth fighting for when shes all but given it up to be what she is? How can she be the warrior of the people when she treats 'the people' as an obstacle to overcome, to be discarded and even killed if they get in her way?

Buffy isn't Human, shes part demon and its the half shes embraced for 8 years now, she treats Humans with great contempt and subverts everything Humanity stands for to "win" some war the men whose teachings she shuns and flies in the face of started millenia before she was born.

Buffy does what she does because she has to.

To keep something clean you have to get your hands dirty.

Buffy hasn't been Buffy since she was chosen, she became 'Buffy the vampire slayer, the reason Buffy is 'the best as what she does' is because she she's never let being the slayer completely destroy Buffy and she's never let being Buffy destroy what it means to be the slayer.

They way I see it Buffy has been as true to herself in season 8 as she can be and as she ever was in the TVS, it's just that now Buffy has different challenges to face, challenges she never encountered during the TVS, and she has to find ways to overcome them and they may not be to our liking but Buffy has to win and if she doesn't find a way to make that happen, then the world loses.
 
Washburne
Washburne
Well said.
Yes, I know exactly what you meant. I just think its a terrible idea and in contradiction to the TV Buffy to have her basically turning into Faith and its becoming more evident shes turning more evil by the day.
It might be a terrible idea but does that mean what it´s a wrong assumption? Most of us like to see Buffy as the good one, always making the right decision. But that´s not who she is, is it?

I might have misunderstood you but my brain really is a mess right now. Well, it has for days but that really isn´t the point (or interesting for you to know).

As for the stealing part I have to go with Rob. Yes she is stealing, and even if it´s "wrong" I don´t have much trouble with it.
 
T
The Arcane
Could not agree with you agreeing with me more! ;)
I loved it when Willow finds out she's robbed the bank.It shows she's willing to put principle and morality before the law.
She's no longer running around SD with her friends simply fighting vampires, she's heading a world wide fight with an army now, and its not like she's getting paid(is it?) Plus, its hard to feel sorry for banks.
 
Is it corruption, though? Or just acceptance of the truth of the world she is fighting to save? I don't see her as becoming corrupt. I see her as having grown up.

I agree, look at batman he works outside the law in order to save people. buffy is doing the same, she stealing in order to support her cause. i mean how else is she going to get the money, she cant hold a job and i never saw her get her license in the show lol
 
T
The Arcane
[No message]
I agree, look at batman he works outside the law in order to save people. buffy is doing the same, she stealing in order to support her cause. i mean how else is she going to get the money, she cant hold a job and i never saw her get her license in the show lol

To use your superhero analogy, Batman is a multi-millionaire with a company that apparently just keeps on pulling in the money without any concerns from him. He can afford his bat-toys without resorting to actual crime.

Spiderman, however, is NOT a multi millionaire, finances are a constant problem for him, and he still doesn't resort to crime. Both do basically the same thing, each manages to do it without resorting to actual crime themselves.

My opinion stays the same: rationalize it all you want to, Buffy remains a thief and a hypocrite to everything she stood for for the first 7 years of the series
 
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