Is Buffy The Least Developed Character In The Whedonverse?

I said a bit of this in another similar thread, but it bears repeating, so...if you want to see a change in Buffy's character, compare her actions, attitude and preparations for the climactic battle in S1 with those of S5. In S1, she slugs her watcher and goes off to fight the Master by herself...no plan, no backup, no wish for input from anyone else, and an acceptance of things as inevitable (the prophecy). In S5, she actually asks for input, pushes for it even, and then uses the data to produce a battle plan that essentially defeats someone whom she had a very slim chance of beating. Although she says Dawn is to be protected, she is willing to sacrifice others (and herself, it turns out) to have that happen...and that is even more apparent in S7. She has become a leader, and has learned the lesson that all Star Trek commanders learn...sometimes you can't win without sacrificing something, even yourself.

That being said, heroes in general must be attractive (not only in the Babe-sense, but in a psychological sense). They are good and somewhat virtuous, and, well, a bit boring. The villains are always the most interesting characters and they are the ones who drive the plot. It's only been in the last 50-60 years that we've seen a large number of conflicted and troubled heroes...a post-modern kind of thing. As a result, heroes have got a bit more interesting, but their sidekicks are always allowed more latitude to be eccentric...eg: Han Solo to Luke Skywalker...Luke was really wooden until he actually found out about his dark origins and explored them...kinda like Buffy did from Buffy vs. Dracula on.

Did Buffy change the most? I'm not sure, but she did change profoundly.

So, after re-reading the earlier posts, I realize I'm only paraphrasing Rocket and blake...oops.
 
She didn't really change much, she didn't change at all, but then, she needn't.

Contrary to what killerdwarf claim, I don not see a real dark background in Buffy. Evil tries to make her believe there is, but in the end, she's the one with the strong morals, who doesn't allow any one to change her views, to make her fight for things she doesn't believe in.

Only thing that needs to change is she has to lay her mind to rest, she has to except her fate as a slayer, which she has always be repelled by.
 
Originally posted by Rocket
Or maybe you just don't read into the episodes very much ...
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Not really, I'm an Angel fan. When I watch Buffy three things go through my mind: is Buffy looking hot?, is Dawn looking hot? and When is Spike on? Not really a fan of Buffy. Only ever watched it cause of Angel and when he got his own show I stoped watching Buffy and watched Angel instead. Now I just watch Buffy if nothing else is on.
 
@No Angel, why not watch Buffy too? The show is of the same sort and the same quality. I can't even see them as two seperate shows, I mean if you love one, you have to love the whole verse.
 
Nah. Buffy has never interested me. I think Angel is the best show in the world but I just don't like Buffy. It cant help that I don't like the main character or the actress who plays her. Also I like to think of Angel as a show in its own right. Its gone past the stage of just a spin-off.
 
It's equal to Buffy, that I'll give you, but both are part of a grander thing, the buffy(or whedon)verse, together with Tales of the Slayers and Fray. Only watching Angel is like reading the Lord of the Rings books, but only reading the scene's with Frodo in it.
 
No it isn't. If you only read the Frodo scenes you wont understand the LOTR story. But Angel is designed to be its own show with its own story. By just watching Angel you are not missing out on anything huge. My only interest is Angel and what goes on in his life and his friends lives. What am I missing by not watching Buffy?
 
In order to understand the character of Angel, you have to understand his other half, Buffy. You have to know why he loves her, and why Angel does what he does. Same for the characters of Cordy, Wesley and Spike. Their roots lie in Sunnydale, and you have to explore that part of their lives to understand this one. To add to what Allycat said, it's like only reading Return of the King and none of the previous books.

And frankly, if you won't even try to come to understand the character of Buffy, your opinion on whether or not she is a well developed character is completely without merit.
 
I think Buffy changed a ton in the course of the show, mostly when she had to deal with the changes all around her. But Giles for instance probably never changed.
 
Giles developed a lot. His change wasn't as drastic as Wesley's, but he did become less of a dork as the series went on, especially in Season 4.
 
Originally posted by Fat Elvis 007
In order to understand the character of Angel, you have to understand his other half, Buffy. You have to know why he loves her, and why Angel does what he does. Same for the characters of Cordy, Wesley and Spike. Their roots lie in Sunnydale, and you have to explore that part of their lives to understand this one. To add to what Allycat said, it's like only reading Return of the King and none of the previous books.

And frankly, if you won't even try to come to understand the character of Buffy, your opinion on whether or not she is a well developed character is completely without merit.
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I watched Buffy from season 1 to 3 so I do understand Angel, Wes and Cordy. With Spike I have a basic knowledge of him. Also I never said I didn't try to like Buffy. I did but after Angel's departure I saw no reason watching a show I didn't enjoy when I can just watch Angel. I did not say that my opinion of Buffy is of any merit. If you read my posts properly you will see that I am asking questions not giving awnsers.
 
I agree, allycat, that Buffy didn't change her moral outlook, or let anyone make her fight for anything she didn't believe in. That is what makes her such an attractive heroic figure (along with leather pants...) As for the darkness that Buffy actually explored, I think that includes screwing an "evil, soulless thing" (Spike) in S6. The darkness was more in line with the kind of "darkness" we all go through...self-doubt, existential angst, etc. But don't we find out in S7 (Storyteller) that the slayer power is derived from evil itself? Yeah, Buffy turned down a big power-up, but the slayer power indeed had its "root in evil" as Drac said. I have no basis for this next opinion, but couldn't Buffy's world-weariness in S5 be a byproduct of the latent evil inherent in the slayer's power, as well as the other stuff that happened (Joyce, Glory, etc)? Just a thought...
 
I think it's unfair to say that Buffy didn't develop as a character. She did, but her changes were so normal compared to everyone elses. The development of Cordelia was drastic, it literally happened over, what, three episodes, so we noticed that change. And it was a super-natural change. If it wasn't for her visions, Cordelia would be the same old Cordelia. Willows change is exactly the same, her confidence comes from her magic. Again another super-natural change.

Buffy's development is like any other teenage girls. She goes from a teenager, dependant on those people around her...to an independant woman, being a mother figure to her younger sister. Her character went through a big development in season 6. And like killerdwarf said, it was more of a personal darkness that she had to come through. That's a big development on it's own.
 
I'd wish that was true jules. Buffy certainly isn't anything like the ordinairy teen girl as aren't her developments.
 
Ok, but in Season 1 Buffy struggles with her responsibilities and she doesn't understand her place in the world. A normal 16 year old girl goes through the same thing, she isn't a woman yet but she isn't a child either, she has extra responsibilities that she has to deal with.

In Season 2, Buffy falls in love and after they have sex Angel turns all nasty and she has to deal with that heart ache. Many teenage girls have had to go through that. After sleeping with their boyfriends the relationship turns bad.

In Season 3 her development is through learning to trust again after Angel and Faith, learning that her responsibilities tie her to where she is, so that she can't move away to college and being able to give up the one she loves so that she can move on with her life.

In Season 4 Buffy starts her new life at college. She has to live on her own and make her own choices, some of them not always the right ones....i.e. Parker. This has happened to loads of girls. They go off to uni, their on their own, making all of their decisiosn, without their parents to give them advice and they end up getting into trouble because of lads like Parker.

In Season 5, she looses her mum and has to take on the responsibility of looking after her younger sister. Literally throwing her into an adult role. Many young people have had to care for a sick parent, and then after they have died take on the role that the parent had.

In Season 6 Buffy is in a really dark place, she gets involved with 'the bad boy', starts drinking and shutting her friends out. That's another normal development.

In Season 7 Buffy has finally come to terms with her responsibilities. That's like any other woman coming to terms with her role in the adult world.
 
In Season 7 Buffy has finally come to terms with her responsibilities. That's like any other woman coming to terms with her role in the adult world.
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Hardly, remember this (from Chosen):

BUFFY
(looks at Angel) Because"”OK, I'm cookie dough. I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat"” (eyes go wide as she catches herself) or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then...that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.
 
What I meant was that she has come to terms with her responsibilities, not that she has finished growing as a person. In season 7 she is a confident woman, not the same teenage girl who had to look to Giles for the answers to her slaying.
 
Was she ever? Did she in the very beginning always listen to Giles or did she only go along aslong as she thought it was right?
 
Giles to Buffy was a father figure, and between any father and daughter there's always some kind of conflict. It's in a daughter's nature to question her father's judgement. Whenever I don't go along with my dad, he's always saying 'Right you know best..' Kind of like reverse physcology. If you notice, as Buffy becomes more of an adult, she leans less on Giles for his wisdom, but more just for support. She can come up with the plans on her own, but she likes to have him there. Like any woman when she gets a life of her own, she doesn't need her fathers in-put as much, but she can still ask for it.
 
Originally posted by Rocket
Her changes may not have been apparent and obvious, but they were there. You just have to read between the lines. 🙂
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Originally posted by The Male Slayer
I would argue that she is the most complex character out of all of them.
I think why people think she's not that well developed is because she hides her emotions, she doesnt say what she feels, she keeps it in inside.
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Well-said, Rocket and The Male Slayer. Even when she doesn't voice her emotions, Buffy tends to wear them on her face quite a bit. I think it's also a matter of just getting to know her character. Besides, No Angel, you are obviously not a fan of Buffy from the get-go, so maybe you just don't pay attention to the some of the subtleties? I know I notice way more change in Buffy than, say, Xander, but I know part of that is because I'm way more interested in Buffy.

All you pro-Buffy's-development people are making really great points, so I think I'm gonna stop here. 🙂
 
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