Is Dawn Culpable for things she did in her backstory?

[CordelliasHeart]

Just a random musing that hit me when I was looking at some fanfics.

Is Dawn morally culpable for things she didnt actualy do, but remembers doing, remembers planning them out, etc.

Your opinions aside do you think buffy and the scoobies would feel it was so?

 

[nightshade]

Given she was made into a 15 year old, there probably wasn't that much that she would have done.

I do think that Buffy would have felt that she would have though, as she would have remembered the trouble it had caused and may have even been blamed for it

 

[Lyri]

I don't really understand where this question came from. It's phrased as though you think Dawn's memories involved her committing mass murder as a nine year old.

I doubt the monks would have thought of adding anything nefarious about Dawn to the memories and past they created and implanted. The whole point of the plan was to get Buffy to protect Dawn (the Key) with her life. Creating memories of Dawn doing very bad things would have had the opposite effect.

But, in saying that, there is the comic, 'Slayer, Interrupted', which was written in response to 'Normal Again', when Buffy was sent to the mental institution. The reason Buffy's parents found out about her Slayer life was because Dawn read Buffy's diary and told Joyce. But I don't think there's anything inherently bad or wrong about that - that was just stupid sister stuff that just happened to land Buffy in hot water.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

wasnt talking about Murder, or anything on that scale, but yes, I saw slayer interrupted too.

or tattling, on something else, or spying on buffy and angel or riley having an, allegedly, private moment.

or stealing a cookie when she was 4.

in ANY of those cases do you think Dawns culpable for the things she didnt ACTUALY do.

 

[Lyri]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I just think the usage of the phrase 'morally culpable' is a bit heavy handed for the situation. 'Responsible' would have made more sense to me.

As for the question, she DID do the things they remember her doing.

We are nothing if not our memories. The memories Buffy and the others have of Dawn and the memories Dawn has of her life might be fabricated, but they ARE real to them. There is no way to turn them off, there's no way for them to remember what life was like without Dawn being a part of it. This is what they know and remember about their lives.

If Dawn remembers stealing a cookie from the batch that Joyce was making for Buffy's bake sale, then Dawn stole a cookie from the batch that Joyce was making for Buffy's bake sale. There's no way to deny that.

 

[thetopher]

Up until S5 Dawn had no free will- she was made.
So no she's not responsible for any 'bad/naughty' stuff she did.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

Fair enough Culpable is one of the words I got from Context I've seen it used in, not actualy looked up in websters.... sorry for the confusion.

 

[Lyri]

Up until S5 Dawn had no free will- she was made.
So no she's not responsible for any 'bad/naughty' stuff she did.

Then she shouldn't be held responsible for any of the 'good' stuff she remembers either. We need a clear distinction.

I, personally, don't agree, though. I think this line of thinking takes something away from Dawn as a person. Saying that she isn't responsible for something because those memories were created for her strips her of those memories, makes her nothing. And it's for this exact reason that Dawn was so upset in S5. She was basically nothing.

If you take those memories away - bad or good - I think it takes away Dawn's person-hood. She's a person. Her memories - and everyone's - might be fake, but they are HER memories.

I don't agree with taking those away from her.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

Fair enough Culpable is one of the words I got from Context I've seen it used in, not looked up in websters.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

I agree Lyri, Sorry about the double post, started two of what winds up being the same post, but I agree , regardless of wheither it really happened, its real to her... I could just see Buffy lecturing Dawn this or that and pointing something out and Dawn saying "you do know that never happened, right?"

Somehow I doubt buffy would care that much.

Also noted in Season 6,

"come on Dawn you used to love the petstore"

"yeah, when I was in my 5's and 6's" REALLY Says that Buffy and Dawn both have put the issue of Dawns origin behind them rather then letting it define who she is.

 

[thetopher]

Then she shouldn't be held responsible for any of the 'good' stuff she remembers either. We need a clear distinction.

No, she shouldn't- as far as I can tell Dawn didn't 'decide' anything- good or bad, so from that standpoint I don't hold her accountable for anything. The monks build her- so they 'chose' for her.
Until we know more about the mechanics of the spell this viewpoint makes perfect sense.

And it's for this exact reason that Dawn was so upset in S5. She was basically nothing.

To an extent but what upsets Dawn more is that everybody she loved/cared about had lied to her about who she was (the metaphor for adoption), it wasn't just 'I'm not real' it was 'everybody who I thought loved me doesn't really'.
That's why Buffy's declaration at the end of the episode matters so much to Dawn- she says 'you're my sister and I love you' (after taking a crowbar to the chest for her), that's what touches Dawn, those other issues, whether Dawn is 'real' or not are dealt with in later episode, 'Tough Love' I think.

If you take those memories away - bad or good - I think it takes away Dawn's person-hood. She's a person. Her memories - and everyone's - might be fake, but they are HER memories.

I'm talking specifically about Dawn's culpability for things she's done- that means moral choice, which she didn't have.

If we remove the link between moral choice and culpability then Spike and Angel are responsible for everything they did- with or without soul.
Morality doesn't work that way- even the law recognises that.

I do maintain however, that the Scoobies all had choices about how they reacted to Dawn, that they chose to love, or tolerate, or ignore her. Willow loves her, Giles tolerates her, Riley ignores her- presumably (until it becomes clearer) that was their choice.
So in that sense Dawn has always been real, because she's affected all of them since the time they 'knew' her. 🙂

 

[sk]

I think Lyri makes a good point.
The person Dawn is today is very much dependent on those old, created, memories.
Her choices and decisions now is all down to how those Monks made her and her memories.

So if we ignore those created memories. Does that mean we can never really hold Dawn responsible for anything she does? Even today?
Or can we after a certain time? And in that case how long time would that be?
Her first own choice after being created must certainly be extremely influenced by how the Monks build her.
With time, as she gain other influences and experience, that will change of course. But she will still always be a product of her made up childhood.

If we treat Dawn as a complete person it all gets much more easier.
In a way I think that's the only way possible actually.
If a distinction is made between her created memories and her real memories we will end up with a very diffuse line when she is responsible and when she's not.
Not sure how that is supposed to be handled. So lets us just see her as a whole person with a complete history instead.

/SK

 

[EVIL UU]

How can one be responsible for something they did not do? What insanity is this?

If Dawn remembers stealing a cookie from the batch that Joyce was making for Buffy's bake sale, then Dawn stole a cookie from the batch that Joyce was making for Buffy's bake sale. There's no way to deny that.

Yeah...just because you remember being chased by your chair and then hiding terrified under a blanket for 6 hours until it went away doesn't mean you actually had to run away from your chair and hide, it just means that drugs are bad for you. Or when you experience a déjà vu, you remember something happening in the past but in reality it's just your memory being a glitchy piece of shit. When you pretend that something you know for a fact is not real, is real, you're just lying to yourself. That's never a good thing. It certainly wasn't good for Dawn.