Is Faith bi..?

[nerd4hire]

Sorry, I might be a right plum, but where does it state that Faith is not Bisexual?

I am part of the 'She's straight' crowd, but I can't find the part where she says I don't do any ladies, just that she 'won't go down town on this chick'.

I would like to use this reference that catagorically states Faith doesn't do the 'Lick the V' so I can do my 'I TOLD YOU SO' dance.

I knew somebody was going to say that, and I was pretty sure it was going to be you. 🙂 But come on, we know what Faith means by that, just as we knew what she meant when she said Willow wasn't into "driving stick" any more.

If Joss thought of Faith as being bi, would he have allowed Brian K Vaughan to make that statement?

I could see him letting it slip if he had some germ of an idea Faith might have a bisexual experience in the future, but not if he was going to introduce bisexuality into the history of Faith's experience. It's clear to me what's being said at the time of the speaking it. Faith doesn't swing that way.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I knew somebody was going to say that, and I was pretty sure it was going to be you. 🙂 But come on, we know what Faith means by that, just as we knew what she meant when she said Willow wasn't into "driving stick" any more.

If Joss thought of Faith as being bi, would he have allowed Brian K Vaughan to make that statement?

I could see him letting it slip if he had some germ of an idea Faith might have a bisexual experience in the future, but not if he was going to introduce bisexuality into the history of Faith's experience. It's clear to me what's being said at the time of the speaking it. Faith doesn't swing that way.

Well, I aim to be predictable!!!

Don't get me wrong, i'm of the belief that Faith, as sexual as she is, is straight, I just see that the 'evidence' isn't 100% clear cut.

Also, anyone who likes a good debate will know, the best way to 'win'(or at least satisfy yourself you are right) is to look at all the arguments from all points of view, even if some haven't been made, just so you can show that you have taken it all into account and you still come to the same conclusion.

 

[nerd4hire]

Also, anyone who likes a good debate will know, the best way to 'win'(or at least satisfy yourself you are right) is to look at all the arguments from all points of view, even if some haven't been made, just so you can show that you have taken it all into account and you still come to the same conclusion.

Very well then, inferior debater that I am I'll do my best to keep up. You'll just have to be patient.

My first problem is I don't see how there's anything to debate. The Faith is bi side seems to be pretty much based on wishful thinking. I'm going to assume if I've read this thread, which I have, I've heard that side. It seems to go. We never saw her not having sex with women, therefore she most likely did. So basically they're saying prove it didn't happen, and if you can't then it did. It's what we inferior debaters like to call a specious argument.

The Faith is hetero side would most likely start at the Faith is a sexual person position. We see and hear her sexual exploits. They are always with men. Not sometimes, or usually - always. She likes sex, and she always has sex with guys. That's our first hint.

Then along comes this...

She doesn't even want to see a picture of the girl. Just for arguments sake let's pretend her target was a guy. A guy as hot as Lady G obviously is. Would the subject even come up about her not considering seduction to get close to that guy? What would that sound like coming out of Faith's mouth, "If you expect me to go downtown with this guy to get close to him you've got the wrong slayer". It would sound false because in that case they clearly would have precisely the right slayer. She did Riley just to get revenge on Buffy, and he wasn't even her type.

She's saying she doesn't do girls. There's no other way to look at it.

 

[Panda]

she's turning down the girl because she OBVIOUSLY still is in love with buffy :silly:

 

[eponinethen]

You sex-obsessed straight people...

Seriously, that' no kind of "proof" what so ever. Just 'cause she's willing to have sex with a random guy, but not a random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls. And I have no idea if Faith ever slept with a girl, but you're not automatically defining yourself as straight if you haven't. Personally I don't think Faith defines herself as straight, bi or gay – but sexual. I think it's pretty obvious Faith and Buffy had major chemistry/attraction, and that they could have – in a different situation – acted on that. Does that mean she has no preference, does that mean she sleeps with as many girls as guys? No. I just think she is attracted (sexually) to women as well as men.
The fact that she turns down sex with a random girl is no kind of proof the other way.

 

[doppelgänger2]

N4H, sorry to be so blunt, but I'd say that a inferior debater wouldn't call on the opposite sides arguments as just "emotions", as for your claim that the Faith-is-bi sides argumnets are based on wishful thinking. I mean, that's a classic; I've seen that behaviour in desperate people who are running out of arguments 😉

I wouldn't say I'm on the Faith-is-bi side, but I am definitely not on the Faith-is-straight side either. I'd say I'm more on the Faith-is-just-a-sexual-being-and-lets-just-leave-it-at-that side.

We never saw her not having sex with women, therefore she most likely did. So basically they're saying prove it didn't happen, and if you can't then it did. It's what we inferior debaters like to call a specious argument.

Well, that's not true in my case. I do not base my arguments on assumption and wishful thinking; I base my arguments in part on the DVD-commentary to episode 3x14 Bad Girls where writer Douglas Petrie says about the "Again with the grunting"-scene outside the school

"And here we got the [...] lesbian subtext between these two [i.e Buffy and Faith], which was always fun to play with. Eliza was always kinda pushing the sexuality, and no one remember to stop her from doing that. Which we're all happy about."

This to me says that at least there was some kind of sexual tension between Buffy and Faith.

The Faith is hetero side would most likely start at the Faith is a sexual person position. We see and hear her sexual exploits. They are always with men. Not sometimes, or usually - always. She likes sex, and she always has sex with guys. That's our first hint.

I could give you as much as Faith perhaps not having any sexual encounters with women proir to her arrival at Sunnydale, but that does not say anything about her later encounters. I'm not saying that she went on boinking every girl she saw after leaving Sunnydale in season 4; heck I'm not sure if I even believe that she had anything gayish going on except with Buffy. But I would still claim that above statement is not less of assumption and wishful thinking than the "We never saw her not having sex with women"-argument.

My counter-claim would be that there is something very important not taken into consideration here and that's FOX-executives, whom Joss had to brawl with in order to allow Willow and Tara kiss for the first time on-screen after being together for more than a year. Now, how long did it take Buffy and Riley to have their first ever on-screen kiss? 4 episodes, if we count from the episode (The Initiative) where Riley realizes he has a crush on Buffy. An out-and-proud bisexual Faith just wasn't happening in season 3. Not because she was in fact straight, but because FOX-execs wouldn't allow it. The famous kiss on the forhead in episode Enemies was scripted to be a kiss on the mouth but had to be changed. So, what if Joss was free to do whatever the heck he wanted with Faith as a character?

What would that sound like coming out of Faith's mouth, "If you expect me to go downtown with this guy to get close to him you've got the wrong slayer". It would sound false because in that case they clearly would have precisely the right slayer.

This damn frame is hard to argue against; but I'll give it a shot anyway. In this case I think it's more a question on how we interpret things (as in the world, people around us, society, sexuality etc) differently.

I am of the oppinion that you cannot prove that anyone is straight/bi/gay until that person says so herself/himself; most assumption of someone being straight are usually based on hetero-normative standards. And I'd like to bring a little queer into this mess. So she won't boink any random girl, how does that make her straight? So she would boink any random guy, how does that make her straight? Some people argue that Willow, because she had a little bit of Oz and a little bit of Xander, is in fact bisexual. But who could argue against Willow's "Hello? Gay now." when that's how she chooses to define herself?

Most gay/bi on screen characters have their "coming-out moment"; but some don't and prefer a more subtle approach. I'd say this is where Faith fits in perfectly. Perhaps she does define herself as straight, but that does not mean she never had any gayish thing going on with Buffy and that she could never have a gayish thing going on ever again.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Very well then, inferior debater that I am I'll do my best to keep up. You'll just have to be patient.

No one said you were an inferior debater buddy, I was merely pointing out that as a debater you must have at least considered the 'evidence' from other points of view then come up with your opinion. I did that too, the only difference is I posted the other side of that, you didn't. It's 'no big'.

My first problem is I don't see how there's anything to debate. The Faith is bi side seems to be pretty much based on wishful thinking. I'm going to assume if I've read this thread, which I have, I've heard that side. It seems to go. We never saw her not having sex with women, therefore she most likely did. So basically they're saying prove it didn't happen, and if you can't then it did. It's what we inferior debaters like to call a specious argument.

The Faith is hetero side would most likely start at the Faith is a sexual person position. We see and hear her sexual exploits. They are always with men. Not sometimes, or usually - always. She likes sex, and she always has sex with guys. That's our first hint.

If you go back to my first post on this thread(8 FLIPPING PAGES OF SHE'S STRAIGHT, NO SHE'S BI - i this some of us need a life🙁 ) I actually used the term 'Wishful Thinking'. I'm right there with you on that. I haven't seen anything other than great chemistry between Eliza and Sarah and that, well that is says more about the actors than the characters. Hmm, interesting that I don't see anyone suggesting SMG and ED are secretly Bi for each other.

She doesn't even want to see a picture of the girl. Just for arguments sake let's pretend her target was a guy. A guy as hot as Lady G obviously is. Would the subject even come up about her not considering seduction to get close to that guy? What would that sound like coming out of Faith's mouth, "If you expect me to go downtown with this guy to get close to him you've got the wrong slayer". It would sound false because in that case they clearly would have precisely the right slayer. She did Riley just to get revenge on Buffy, and he wasn't even her type.

She's saying she doesn't do girls. There's no other way to look at it.

See thats the problem. The wording used is what can be argued.
"If you expect me to go downtown on this chick to get close to her you've got the wrong slayer".
She refers to this particular woman, not 'any' woman.

We could also use as an argument that Robin Wood had a more profound impact on her than even she thought.
Maybe she had some 'experiences' in Prison that have done this or the biggest possibility within the argument is that she sees sex with men as something to release excess energy. She doesn't connect it with emotion so she uses a guy as pretty much nothing more than a living dildo.
A woman however, thats where her emotion lies. She can't have random sex with a woman because thats where she would invest all her emotion in it and she isn't willing to become that vulnerable because it would leave her at a disadvantage.

Personally I still think she is only into the guys, but I wouldn't mind watching her get it on with Buffy...but then thats wishful thinking.

 

[doppelgänger2]

We could also use as an argument that Robin Wood had a more profound impact on her than even she thought.
Maybe she had some 'experiences' in Prison that have done this or the biggest possibility within the argument is that she sees sex with men as something to release excess energy. She doesn't connect it with emotion so she uses a guy as pretty much nothing more than a living dildo.
A woman however, thats where her emotion lies. She can't have random sex with a woman because thats where she would invest all her emotion in it and she isn't willing to become that vulnerable because it would leave her at a disadvantage.

Are you sure you are part of the Faith-is-straight crowd? Cause that's pretty much one of the main arguments that most Fuffy-shipper use when explaining what could be Faith's relationship to men. I'm not sure about the last part though. I'm with you on the living dildo thing, but I also believe that Faith could possibly use women as... living dildos... ehm. I think that Faith has issues with emotions in general, and probably more so when it comes to the ladies. So in the end, you're probably right anyway.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Are you sure you are part of the Faith-is-straight crowd? Cause that's pretty much one of the main arguments that most Fuffy-shipper use when explaining what could be Faith's relationship to men. I'm not sure about the last part though. I'm with you on the living dildo thing, but I also believe that Faith could possibly use women as... living dildos... ehm. I think that Faith has issues with emotions in general, and probably more so when it comes to the ladies. So in the end, you're probably right anyway.

I'm 100% sure.

Like I said earlier to N4H, you have to be aware of all sides of an argument before you can have a valid opinion that you can contribute to a discussion.
I've read them all in regards to this topic and i'm still sure of her sexuality - I was just giving the arguments on why you need a definitive Whedon/Faith 'i'm straight' before we can ever know for 100% about stuff like this.

 

[Mortal]

Hell, even if Faith isn't bi I wouldn't have previously put it past her to go down on another girl to see a mission through. The fact that she instantly shot that possibility down means that she finds the prospect distasteful. She's not even curious, she didn't stop to ponder the possibility, just a flat out rejection. Not bi, period.

 

[white avenger]

We can argue this issue until the hellmouth freezes over, and the issue will never be settled one way or the other until Joss has Faith and Buffy (or some other female) actually have sex, because has, and will exercise that option anytime his evil twisted little heart pleases. He's already proven that canon means nothing to him if it gets in the way of what he considers a good. plot line. Why don't we all just agree that, up until this moment, Faith has not been shown expressing any gay or bisexual feelings. Beyond that, the Mighty Joss rules!

P S---Just because Willow fell deeply in love with one beautiful and extremely wonderful person who happened to be female, then, because the odds were pretty good that they could die at any moment, tried to recapture that feeling with with someone who turned out to not be worthy to polish Tara's shoes, let alone replace her in bed or Willow's life doesn't absolutely make her gay OR bi-sexual. It simply means that she let Kennedy manipulate her (remember what Kennedy said about being a brat and always getting her way?) into a relationship that was obviously a mistake from the beginning.

 

[nerd4hire]

I'd like to make one thing crystal clear. I'm not saying Faith could never, under any circumstances have a bisexual experience. If Joss chose to give her one, of course she could. One could say the same of Cordelia, Fred, Harmony, or any other character. He could even bring C & F back from the dead to do it if he so chose.

I'm saying that the current comic frame when viewed in the context of Faith's obvious hetero preference up until this point clearly states Faith does not at this point view herself as gay, or bisexual.

 

[doppelgänger2]

I was just giving the arguments on why you need a definitive Whedon/Faith 'i'm straight' before we can ever know for 100% about stuff like this.

I agree! So fantastic that the opposite sides can agree 🙂
I feel like there is hope for world peace!

Why don't we all just agree that, up until this moment, Faith has not been shown expressing any gay or bisexual feelings. Beyond that, the Mighty Joss rules!

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that. Because it's not true that Faith has not been shown expressing any gay or bisexual feelings. Let me show you two examples of where she does too do that, IMO:

1) That I quoted from Mr. Petrie about the lesbian subtext between Buffy and Faith and how fun it was to play around with it.

2) Writer Jim Kouf, who wrote the episode Five by Five, added this to the scipt

LOUD MUSIC gushing into the street. A FEW BARFLIES enter as Faith exits with an attractive WOMAN. We may not see her face at first, just concentrate on Faith, who is a bit wobbly. (NOTE TO DIRECTOR AND ACTORS: Mind the lesbian subtext -- keep it very "sub".)

Two writers who mention lesbian subtext and what else does these scenes have in common? Yeah, Faith. You can't argue against subtext people!

IOne could say the same of Cordelia, Fred, Harmony, or any other character. He could even bring C & F back from the dead to do it if he so chose.

True, he could do whatever the heck he wanted with his characters, which he clearly does. And that's one reason why I at least love him. But I still do not agree that he could make any character bi/gay at any time and however he wanted. Well, one thing again are the FOX execs getting in the way of him.

There is a reason, IMO, why Xander and Willow were the two candidates for the who-will-be-teh-gay-one contest, and why Faith's lesbianess only was left to only subtext. Xander and Willow, in season 3, were pretty much harmless. No raw sexual persona, no walks on the wildside, no boinking the undead or even being undead themselves. For execs to accept the potrayal of a gay character in a teveshow, it would most certainly have to be a harmless one. Willow and Tara were perfect for that cause they were all vanilla-y unlike Faith who has yet to have any romantic relationship with anyone in the Buffyverse. She just wants to get some and get gone.

 

[nerd4hire]

True, he could do whatever the heck he wanted with his characters, which he clearly does. And that's one reason why I at least love him. But I still do not agree that he could make any character bi/gay at any time and however he wanted. Well, one thing again are the FOX execs getting in the way of him.

Interesting accusation. Any prove? Myself, I think you've got your networks mixed up. Fox holds partial copyright to Buffy. My impression is Fox's attitude has always been, "go out and do what you do Joss, and keep making us money"

Fox never actually broadcasted BTVS. That was first the WB up until the end of season 5, then UPN. That was where any possible censorship might have occurred. Here's a bit from Wikipedia. I don't offer it as a paragon of truth, but I do say I agree with their explanation in this case.

However, broadcasting constraints from the WB meant that, unlike the heterosexual characters, Willow and Tara were not allowed to be shown in any sexual scenes. The couple did not have their first onscreen kiss until the Season Five episode, "The Body", almost a year after their relationship began. This changed significantly when Buffy switched networks to the more lenient UPN,

Willow Rosenberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, so fast forward to the comics. Is there any evidence Fox interferes with Joss editorially? If there's not then when Faith says in Buffy 8.06 she's not into girls sexually, it's only because she's not into girls sexually at that point, nor has she been up until that point. There are no editorial constraints from Fox here. 2007 at Dark Horse, is not 1997 at the WB.

 

[doppelgänger2]

I might have the networks all mixed up in my head (thank god for public service TV cause that's all I watch nowadays) but I don't think that matters too much anyway. Ragardless of my mixing it all up into a sordid mess, I will still like to claim that Joss couldn't do whatever he wanted cause of people with suits and money. Anyone who has ever worked with suits with money and producers know that artistic freedom is pretty much not existent and "a creatice process" is humbug.
Again I'd like to mention the kiss on the forehead in episode Enemies that had to be changed from a kiss on the mouth to a kiss on the forehead. Why? Cause Joss all of the sudden realized that "OMG y'alls! Faith ain't bi! We can't have her doing that!"? I'm not too sure.
As for "proof" of who said what and who did who and what and when and why, I don't have, sorry. As for now I have my own recollection of various Joss (and also Amber Benson) interviews where he (and she) speaks of this matter. I remember him talking about how reluctant some of the suits were to a) a full on lesbian kiss and b) a scene where two women are shown in a sexual context. Gay characters are always controversial, no one can argue that introducing a gay character into a teveshow in the 1990's was all drama free. Not taking that into consideration is just... being damn naive IMO.

 

[nerd4hire]

The censorship by networkss only becomes a problem for me if you're suggesting Fox is exercising some kind of veto power when Joss and Brian say in 8.06 Faith is not bisexual. Although I'd challenge you if you're saying UPN was afraid to introduce the issue of sexuality homo, lesbian, or straight in Season 7.

I can accept the other stuff you mention as vague memories you recollect, except not his one.

Again I'd like to mention the kiss on the forehead in episode Enemies that had to be changed from a kiss on the mouth to a kiss on the forehead. Why? Cause Joss all of the sudden realized that "OMG y'alls! Faith ain't bi! We can't have her doing that!"? I'm not too sure.

That absolutely must be challenged. I say post a link, or it didn't happen.

As I heard it there was purpose to the forehead kiss.

Slayer kisses

In 3.17 Enemies, Angel kisses Buffy on her forehead in her bedroom and Faith kisses Buffy in the same place before running away after they fight. Buffy returns Faith's forehead kiss in 3.22 Graduation Day (Part Two), after putting the Slayer in a coma.

The Buffy and Angel Trivia Guide 3.17 Enemies

and even if that kiss was supposed to be on the lips it wasn't a sexual kiss, it had an entirely non-sexual inference. Here it is # 8 on Wizard's list of of Deadliest Moments.

8. Faith kisses Buffy on the forehead

“Enemies,” Season Three, Episode 51
The best moment in Buffy and Faith history is when the two slayers are fighting to the death in Season Three’s “Enemies” and end their scuff with knives at each other’s throat. Faith then kisses Buffy on the forehead and runs off. Up to this point, Buffy and Faith were frenemies, but now there was no more pretending. They hated each other. Faith was ready to embrace the killer in her, and Buffy began to accept her role as the sole slayer.

Wizard Entertainment

And even if a kiss on the lips had originally been proposed (which requires proof, before it can be taken seriously), and it was supposed to be a sexual kiss (which wouldn't make sense) that would have been during the WB days. If Joss had always wanted to introduce Faith as Bi then, why tell us now that she wasn't when there are no censorship constraints.

 

[eponinethen]

The fact that she instantly shot that possibility down means that she finds the prospect distasteful. She's not even curious, she didn't stop to ponder the possibility, just a flat out rejection. Not bi, period.

This argument makes no sense what so ever. Like I said before, just 'cause she's willing to have sex with random guys (probably not ever guy she meets though, we don't know anything about that), and not with any random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls.

I'm saying that the current comic frame when viewed in the context of Faith's obvious hetero preference up until this point clearly states Faith does not at this point view herself as gay, or bisexual.

Thank you for saying that she doesn't "view" herself as gay/bi. Imo you can't be gay/straight/bi, it's something you identify as. And no one but Faith can obviously decide for her. The problem here though is that people generally tend to choose to be straight if they can, a lot of people who are able to fall for "people of the same sex" choose not to act on those feelings. Etc.

I'm not saying Faith is your typical closet case, I don't doubt for a second she would have acted on her feelings for Buffy in season 3 "“ had the situation been different "“ but that doesn't mean she at this point identifies as bi.

Now I'm not saying I know she's bi, again I don't believe you can be a sexual preference, but I do believe she is at times sexually attracted to girls, and it definitely wouldn't surprise me if she has had sexual experiences with girls "“ and that she has had real feelings for girls, even though she might not have understood it at the time.

 

[doppelgänger2]

As for the kiss on the forehead, I remember reading an article where Douglas Petrie was quoted, from an interview I think, to say that the kiss on the forehead was changed from a kiss on the mouth. Now, that's all I was refering to. I am not saying that any suit has veto power over Joss, I'm just saying that Joss might be all mighty to us but I doubt he was in the eyes of the suits. Of course, he eventually gained lots of "power" in the sense that the show was popular with loads of viewers and that of course gives someone more space in the process of creating a storyline. And yes, you're right, the change to UPN did affect a whole lot.

In a May 2000 post on The Bronze, Buffy creator Joss Whedon responded to criticism over this issue, writing "Are we forced to cut things between Willow and Tara? Well, there are things the network will not allow us to show. As for example kissing." In an interview in this month's Girlfriends Magazine, Amber Benson provides her perspective on the issue: "Alyson and I thought at times that we needed to be doing more kissing. Part of that was the WB wanting to take it slowly, but when we got to UPN they let us do whatever, and things began to change."

(LINK)

Ya know, when Faith was on season 3, they hadn't switched to UPN yet. Hence, my trying to make a point, despite my mixing up the networks (I don't know how that happened honestly), that introducing an out-and-proud gay/bi/whatevertheheck Faith just wasn't happening in season 3.

And as for Faith being introduced as bi/gay later; I'm not saying that Joss inteded to introduce Faith as anything. He had Xander or Willow in mind for the gay character, and that was it. I'm just saying that there was something happening in season 3, a homo-erotic vibe between Faith and Buffy that might lead us to think that any one them could be attracted to women. Unfortunately they had to keep that at a very subtle subtext.

 

[nerd4hire]

This argument makes no sense what so ever. Like I said before, just 'cause she's willing to have sex with random guys (probably not ever guy she meets though, we don't know anything about that), and not with any random girl, does not mean she isn't ever attracted to girls.

Actually no. You know what makes no sense? You're saying BKV put that frame in front of Joss and a conversation something like this one took place.

Joss: Wait an minute now. If you have Faith say she won't go "downtown on this chick", people may misconstrue that into meaning she's not bisexual. The gay girls will get mad at me if they have to take down all their slash.

Brian: It's OK there's subtext there that she would do her if she was the right girl, she's just doesn't do random girls.

Joss: But she can still do random guys though, right?

Brian: Uh yeah, I guess so.

Joss: And you promise me there's subtext there somewhere?

Brian: Sure.

Joss: I don't see it.

Brian: It's there.

Joss: Oh all right.

Now that doesn't make sense. The comic frame says what it says, and it's canon. At this time Faith does not do girls. It's not the way she sees herself.

As far as the the quote, unquote subtext in Season 3 goes, there is no subtext. There's nothing like "Hey, I should go downtown on...er...I mean with you." It's like what somebody said earlier. It's chemistry between the two actresses. Now Eliza and Sarah may be latently gay, I don't know, but there's nothing in the text, sub or other, to tell us Buffy and Faith are.

 

[doppelgänger2]

Aw, come on N4H! You're just in heterosexual denyal! How the heck can you NOT see the subtext between Faith and Buffy? Not just the obvious chemistry between ED and SMG, but the chemistry between the two lady slayers. Some of the writers are obviously aware of the lesbian subtext that follows Faith wherever she goes. Faith's later destiny was not to be a ravin' dyke, I cannot see how that would fit into the season 7 storyline or the season 8 storyline. But denying the obvious subtext in season 3? Holy-dooly...