Is Giles responsible for Dark Willow?

[bespangeled]

Okay - slightly overstated but here is my case.

Season one - Willow is accepted by Giles as part of the group, and she begins to show an interest in magic working under Giles as part of the scoobs.

Season two - Willow's interest in magic grows, and she manages to resoul Angel which Giles does learn about but he does not begin instructing her in either the philosophy or the dangers of magic

Season three - Willow is now using magic regularly to help Giles and the others, and while Giles tells Willow that magic is dangerous, he let's her believe magic isn't dangerous if it is used to fight evil. This is where she needed to learn that the very nature of magic can change you, and that when it comes to dark magic it does not matter what the goal is.

Seasons four - Willow is heavily into learning magic, and once Oz leaves the group she begins to experiment in some dangerous areas. She tries to put spells on everyone - and succeeeds in doing harm she didn't forsee. Even with this - and with no magic training - Willow is asked to do the intense magics needed to defeat Adam.

Season five - By now Willow is used regularly by Giles to do any spells the group needs, and the group needs a lot. Tara balances her to a degree - but once Tara is rendered incapable, Willow really takes off. The magic she uses to fight Buffy is incredibly strong and getting darker. Giles continues to express concerns, but he also uses Willow's magic regularly without any training.

Season six - Willow's magic is an important part of staying alive once Buffy is dead. She decides she has to use very dark blood magic, killing a fawn and using it's blood to ressurect Buffy - a process which fills her with dark magic. You can see it in her conversation with Giles when she tells him maybe he should be careful not to piss her off. Once again, Giles berates her, then he leaves town.

For five years, Giles used Willow's magic abilities, relied on her to get things done. I think that once he realized he was going to do that he had a moral commitment to train her that was just as important as his commitment to train Buffy. Stronger in fact because Willow was a danger to herself and others and it was Giles who had provided encouragement, texts, materials and opportunities. Willow would not have anything near the abilities she developed if Giles hadn't entered her life. If noting else, he should have taken on the reponsibility of training and mentoring Willow simplt to keep Buffy and the scoobs safe, as well as the residents of Sunnydale.

 

[Kean]

I don't think he is responsible because he oversaw her progression in magic, but I think he holds responsibility in that season because he saw her heading down a dodgy path and he left Sunnydale knowing that. Giles wasn't responsible for Willow the way he was for Buffy, but at the same time he left when he knew Willow was going too far and mixing with magic he knew she couldn't handle, much like he did in his youth.

However, when all is said and done, Willow is the one responsible for Dark Willow. She kept making choices to go deeper and darker into magic that was so much bigger than herself. Even if Giles had been in Sunnydale, I don't know if he could have done anything.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't think he is responsible because he oversaw her progression in magic, but I think he holds responsibility in that season because he saw her heading down a dodgy path and he left Sunnydale knowing that. Giles wasn't responsible for Willow the way he was for Buffy, but at the same time he left when he knew Willow was going too far and mixing with magic he knew she couldn't handle, much like he did in his youth.

However, when all is said and done, Willow is the one responsible for Dark Willow. She kept making choices to go deeper and darker into magic that was so much bigger than herself. Even if Giles had been in Sunnydale, I don't know if he could have done anything.

Once the council fired Giles, I'd say that he had an equal responsibility there. Since he was no longer a real watcher he really no longer had anything but personal responsibilities.

I don't deny Willow is responsible but Giles instigated and provided means.

If this truly were an addiction metaphor - which I loathe - Giles supervised her first drug use, and supplied more and more potent drugs so she could do things he needed done. Then, once she had clearly gone way over the line, he left without a backwards glance.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I think Willow is responsible for Dark Willow, and the fact that she never accepts that is exactly the problem.

🙂

 

[Lyri]

I think Willow is responsible for Dark Willow, and the fact that she never accepts that is exactly the problem.

🙂

THIS.

There is no one to blame for Willow's problems but Willow herself.

Yes, Giles might have been present for her first swan dive into magic, but he's not responsible for how far she went with it. In my mind, that's like saying that the person who gave an alcoholic their first ever beer is responsible for their addiction. Just no.

Willow is an adult and she made her own choices. She chose ignore the words and warnings of Tara and others around her and it nearly ended in the world being destroyed. That's on Willow, no one else.

 

[Kean]

Once the council fired Giles, I'd say that he had an equal responsibility there. Since he was no longer a real watcher he really no longer had anything but personal responsibilities.

I don't deny Willow is responsible but Giles instigated and provided means.

If this truly were an addiction metaphor - which I loathe - Giles supervised her first drug use, and supplied more and more potent drugs so she could do things he needed done. Then, once she had clearly gone way over the line, he left without a backwards glance.

But Giles is reinstated as Watcher in S5. Also, the drug metaphor doesn't come into play until S6, for the 5 seasons previous to that Willow pursued magic herself. Giles tried to dissuade her initially but Willow made the decision herself to pursue magic, and to use it in the fight with Buffy. Willow is explicit and emphatic about her stance on magic, she wasn't roped into it and she certainly wasn't coerced to perform spells against her will. I think Giles holds responsibility for seeing Willow slipping at the start of S6 and not trying to intervene then. But I don't believe he holds responsibility for being part of the world that brough magic into Willow's life.

 

[bespangeled]

But Giles is reinstated as Watcher in S5. Also, the drug metaphor doesn't come into play until S6, for the 5 seasons previous to that Willow pursued magic herself. Giles tried to dissuade her initially but Willow made the decision herself to pursue magic, and to use it in the fight with Buffy. Willow is explicit and emphatic about her stance on magic, she wasn't roped into it and she certainly wasn't coerced to perform spells against her will. I think Giles holds responsibility for seeing Willow slipping at the start of S6 and not trying to intervene then. But I don't believe he holds responsibility for being part of the world that brough magic into Willow's life.

I can live with that - agree to disagree🙂

 

[thetopher]

If you accept that magic isn't addictive, disagreeing with all that S6 tosh, then its pretty much Willow's fault.

She's insecure and weak-willed enough to become addicted to what magic does for others and, more specifically what it does for her.

All the Season's actions described show Willow working magic for other people's benefit- but in S6 she crosses the line and, in her thinking, starts to see magic as a short cut to everything, mostly for her own benefit, which has nothing to do with any action Giles did or encouraged in the past.

Warren is more responsible for Dark Willow than Giles.

But Giles, being awesome, comes back and risks his life in the (small) hope that he can rescue Willow from her own darkness.

He isn't responsible for Dark Willow, but he feels responsibility towards Willow.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

Would I blame Giles? No. But in a very non-judgey, totally dispassionate way, I would say he is responsible, in a first-mover sort of way, as he wasn't stricter with Buffy about not having friends as most Slayers didn't, or at least not letting her friends get caught up in her work.
If I were to apportion blame, the other easy targets are Warren or Willow herself, depending on how you view magic and various other factors. I'm not totally happy with either of them as being the main people at fault. I'm still not sure who I think is to blame, though.

 

[bespangeled]

THIS.

There is no one to blame for Willow's problems but Willow herself.

Yes, Giles might have been present for her first swan dive into magic, but he's not responsible for how far she went with it. In my mind, that's like saying that the person who gave an alcoholic their first ever beer is responsible for their addiction. Just no.

Willow is an adult and she made her own choices. She chose ignore the words and warnings of Tara and others around her and it nearly ended in the world being destroyed. That's on Willow, no one else.

First off - don't mistake me. I adore Giles - in so many ways. But there are some things he did that pissed me off too.


He's an adult. She is 16 when it begins. He asks her to do spells for the group without overseeing her, and since he is the authority and the father figure - and since she both loves magic and needs it for validation, she has no hesitation. I think that as a child and a student she has every reason to believe that Giles would not put her in danger. She can't ask for training in what she doesn't know exists. And she had no idea what dangers existed until she was already pretty screwed up.


Remember Ripper. I mean, the man was into dark arts and demon raising when he wasn't much older than Willow. He knows exactly what can happen when a talented magic student goes off to learn and practice on their own. This reminder (Ehygon) comes just as he starts asking Willow to do spells, and he still makes no connection.

Yes - Willow has to learn some important Karmic lessons. I assume that if an event changes, the lesson still comes in a different manner. She'll still have to face the same challenges in a different form.

But as an adult, I would never give a kid a skill saw and a manual and send him off to build me rabbit hutch.

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------

If you accept that magic isn't addictive, disagreeing with all that S6 tosh, then its pretty much Willow's fault.

She's insecure and weak-willed enough to become addicted to what magic does for others and, more specifically what it does for her.

All the Season's actions described show Willow working magic for other people's benefit- but in S6 she crosses the line and, in her thinking, starts to see magic as a short cut to everything, mostly for her own benefit, which has nothing to do with any action Giles did or encouraged in the past.

Warren is more responsible for Dark Willow than Giles.

But Giles, being awesome, comes back and risks his life in the (small) hope that he can rescue Willow from her own darkness.

He isn't responsible for Dark Willow, but he feels responsibility towards Willow.

Agreed on Warren. And on the fact that this hit Willow's weaknesses 🙂

I hate the magic is addictive storyline - but I do believe that magic changes you in some ways.

Giles knew that better than anyone - he was Ripper, and raising demons at one point. By the time he had Willow do the magic to destroy Adam - he should have realized how strong she was getting and starting to work with her. He knows what can happen to a gifted and untutored teen and he had had a large hand in both creating and utilizing her talents, in making her who she was at that time.

---------- Post added at 02:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

Would I blame Giles? No. But in a very non-judgey, totally dispassionate way, I would say he is responsible, in a first-mover sort of way, as he wasn't stricter with Buffy about not having friends as most Slayers didn't, or at least not letting her friends get caught up in her work.
If I were to apportion blame, the other easy targets are Warren or Willow herself, depending on how you view magic and various other factors. I'm not totally happy with either of them as being the main people at fault. I'm still not sure who I think is to blame, though.

Warren and Willow are completely responsible in their own actions. This isn't to blame Giles - it's mostly to explore. I adore Giles - seriously and on many levels - but the man admits he screws up. I think this was a screw-up.

 

[Blaze]

From s1-3, Giles is responsible for Willow period when it comes to the whole "fighting of evil gig". He was responsible in the sense of what he let her do back in highschool. But after that, well like everyone said Willow is responsible for Willow. It is not Giles' fault that she became such a powerful witch. In fact, she was always destined to be that powerful, magic came naturally to her. Giles couldn't do anything about that, even had he stopped her in highschool. Willow was just powerful, doesn't matter who's teaching her or not.

That being said, Giles would have probably done better starting to teach her how to be safe with magic from the beginning. Who knows, maybe bring her to the coven in England for a summer around s4. This might have greatly helped Willow understand what she was dealing with.

Still, I don't think even Giles knew how dangerous Willow could become. It's not his fault.

The only thing I absolutely hate is how Giles left in s6 when he clearly knew that 2 of his "kids" were going through huge issues. Abandoning Buffy and Willow was a huge mistake, he made the wrong decision. Still, can't blame his shitty actions for somebody else's shitty actions, that's just not how it works. In life, we are responsible for ourselves.

 

[EVIL UU]

Giles is not responsible for Dark Willow but he is responsible for the apocalypse. Willow does not want to destroy the world ( not that she could - she's not powerful enough on her own ) she just wants to kill the trio which by the way is not that much worse than some of Buffy's actions, act under strong emotion and all that. Then Giles shows up ( I don't even understand why, I guess Willow is an adult capable of making her own decisions but only as long as she behaves like a good girl, I mean, it's completely ridiculous, why does he even care? He's a killer! ) with a supply of an entire coven's worth of magic and everything goes to hell. He practically hands over a key to a barn full of drugs, guns and ammunition to a traumatized, out of control individual. What is Giles thinking? Seriously, it's like this guy wants the world to end or something.

 

[bespangeled]

From s1-3, Giles is responsible for Willow period when it comes to the whole "fighting of evil gig". He was responsible in the sense of what he let her do back in highschool. But after that, well like everyone said Willow is responsible for Willow. It is not Giles' fault that she became such a powerful witch. In fact, she was always destined to be that powerful, magic came naturally to her. Giles couldn't do anything about that, even had he stopped her in highschool. Willow was just powerful, doesn't matter who's teaching her or not.

That being said, Giles would have probably done better starting to teach her how to be safe with magic from the beginning. Who knows, maybe bring her to the coven in England for a summer around s4. This might have greatly helped Willow understand what she was dealing with.

Still, I don't think even Giles knew how dangerous Willow could become. It's not his fault.

The only thing I absolutely hate is how Giles left in s6 when he clearly knew that 2 of his "kids" were going through huge issues. Abandoning Buffy and Willow was a huge mistake, he made the wrong decision. Still, can't blame his shitty actions for somebody else's shitty actions, that's just not how it works. In life, we are responsible for ourselves.

Exactly what I think.

Willow, once she got into magic, was gonna be powerful. And doing magic to order exercised that power - opened her up. If Giles had worked with her even an hour a week, lessons on meditation...anything, it would have made a huge difference. And a visit to the coven after season 4 would have been perfect. The coven also might have had the names of local covens or practioners. (Okay - getting into full fledged story mode now).

I think that once Willow ressurected the dead, Giles had full warning of what she could do. By then - too late. I would understand better if he had not done his stint as Ripper

(And yes - ultimately Willow and Warren are responsible for their actions).

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

Giles is not responsible for Dark Willow but he is responsible for the apocalypse. Willow does not want to destroy the world ( not that she could - she's not powerful enough on her own ) she just wants to kill the trio which by the way is not that much worse than some of Buffy's actions, act under strong emotion and all that. Then Giles shows up ( I don't even understand why, I guess Willow is an adult capable of making her own decisions but only as long as she behaves like a good girl, I mean, it's completely ridiculous, why does he even care? He's a killer! ) with a supply of an entire coven's worth of magic and everything goes to hell. He practically hands over a key to a barn full of drugs, guns and ammunition to a traumatized, out of control individual. What is Giles thinking? Seriously, it's like this guy wants the world to end or something.

Giles is the Frst?!

I have to say that seeing Warren's death only makes me sad that it was so quickly over. But I had a friend murdered in real life so....strong feelings.

So the coven plan is out - what should he do? Or have done?

 

[EVIL UU]

@thetopher

But Giles, being awesome, comes back and risks his life in the (small) hope that he can rescue Willow from her own darkness.

But that's just so condescending, this whole I'll save you from your own decisions weather you like it or not bullshit. Will's not a kid, right?

@Blaze

In fact, she was always destined to be that powerful, magic came naturally to her.

I don't think that there's anything in the script to support that. Willow's a powerful witch because she put a lot of work into that. Period.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

How could Giles be held responsible for Dark Willow, what did he know about good magic that wasn't written in a book?
In his Ripper days he knew how to use black magic to raise demons, so maybe he could have steered her away from the darker side of magic. But when did he first learn of her using black magic?
Was he about then?
Giles was trained to be a watcher to a vampire slayer he wasn't trained in how to teach the use of magic to a budding wizard.
When Giles bought the Magic Shop was it for the magic he could do there or was it to earn money?
Even when Willow become Dark Willow what help did Giles give her? He went to the witches in Cornwall to get them to help her.
So who could you apportion blame to for Willow becoming Dark Willow? Even Amy shouldn't have to bear any blame, sure she led Willow to Rack but she hadn't been shown what Willow was given, which leaves Rack. He opened the doorway for the Dark to become a part of Willow and the Dark ultimately took over Willow. As the entity who was the Dark in Dark Willow, it said, "Willow doesn't live here anymore."
It would seem to be a good case for a definitive example of possession, I dare say even Regan (Linda Blair ) might even agree with that.

 

[EVIL UU]

@bespangeled

So the coven plan is out - what should he do? Or have done?

Nothing. Or just do what Xander, his infinite wisdom be praised, did. Let Willow make her own decisions. She listens, that's good. She does not, that's OK too, you're still friends. Don't confront her, don't assume the position of power. It's not going to work 'cause you have no power over her.

The same thing happened at the end of season 5 and these idiots, Buffy and Giles, they still don't get it. Will's changed and they haven't noticed. She's not the shy, frightened girl anymore, she's a powerful independent woman, OK? A badass Wicca who hurts gods and resurrects slayers. It's time to start treating her as such.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I hope that the second paragraph was a quote EVIL UU because saying Willow was in any way shape or form a Wicca is like saying that Willow was a devout catholic.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Giles isn't responsible for Dark Willow, because she makes her own decisions. However I do think he could have done more to warn her about the use of dark magic and what it does. He and Tara express their concerns here and there, but they never really address it. Also his leaving in season 6, when she basically threatened him, was not a good idea.

The other thing is that Willow doesn't know how to separate her emotions from magic. Oz leaves her, so she tries to do a magic spell, which goes wrong. Tara's brain gets sucked by Glory, so she goes a lil bit Dark Willow to get revenge. Tara get's shot, she completely falls off the deep end and cannot think rationally enough and then gets dark magic from Rack and it takes over her. When Willow is in pain she turns to magic and cannot control it. Perhaps if someone like Giles or Buffy or Tara made this known to her and showed more concern, she might have learned to control and separate her emotions from the magic.

 

[bespangeled]

How could Giles be held responsible for Dark Willow, what did he know about good magic that wasn't written in a book?
In his Ripper days he knew how to use black magic to raise demons, so maybe he could have steered her away from the darker side of magic. But when did he first learn of her using black magic?
Was he about then?
Giles was trained to be a watcher to a vampire slayer he wasn't trained in how to teach the use of magic to a budding wizard.
When Giles bought the Magic Shop was it for the magic he could do there or was it to earn money?
Even when Willow become Dark Willow what help did Giles give her? He went to the witches in Cornwall to get them to help her.
So who could you apportion blame to for Willow becoming Dark Willow? Even Amy shouldn't have to bear any blame, sure she led Willow to Rack but she hadn't been shown what Willow was given, which leaves Rack. He opened the doorway for the Dark to become a part of Willow and the Dark ultimately took over Willow. As the entity who was the Dark in Dark Willow, it said, "Willow doesn't live here anymore."
It would seem to be a good case for a definitive example of possession, I dare say even Regan (Linda Blair ) might even agree with that.

I agree - Giles wasn't trained, but he was experienced, and we see him whip up a spell in the 1st season. And Willow was a teen doing magic spells for him - he owed her instruction. He knew where all that natural talent, curiousity, and experimenting could lead because of his own past.

I disagree about Rack, too though he was definitely a part of the problem in season 6. I'm pretty sure that resurecting Buffy opened those channels. When you kill a young animal and use it's blood for magic you are using very dark magic. When the spell was

WILLOW: No! (stands) Giles, I did what I had to do. I did what nobody else could do.
GILES: Oh, there are others in this world who can do what you did. You just don't want to meet them. (turns away again)
WILLOW: No, probably not, but ... well, they're the bad guys. I'm not a bad guy. (upset) I brought Buffy back into this world, a-and maybe the word you should be looking for is "congratulations."
GILES: Having Buffy back in the world makes me feel ... indescribably wonderful, but I wouldn't congratulate you if you jumped off a cliff and happened to survive.
WILLOW: That's not what I did, Giles.
GILES: (angry) You were lucky.
WILLOW: I wasn't lucky. I was amazing. And how would you know? You weren't even there.
GILES: If I had been, I'd have bloody well stopped you. The magicks you channeled are more ferocious and primal than anything you can hope to understand, (even more angry) and you are lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur!

 

[thetopher]

@thetopher


But that's just so condescending, this whole I'll save you from your own decisions weather you like it or not bullshit. Will's not a kid, right?

@Blaze


I don't think that there's anything in the script to support that. Willow's a powerful witch because she put a lot of work into that. Period.

No, its called acting out of compassion when Willow is off her nut on grief and magic- by your reckoning Xander is interferring in Willow's descisions when she tries to end the world. I mean, she's more in control there right, she's in touch with her humanity? But really, how dare he condesend and try and help her? The nerve! 😛


I guess, by your rational then that Willow isn't special and any person can put in about, oh 5 years of spell research to become a world-destroying magic powerhouse, which makes zero sense.

Certainly Tara, who was raised by her Mother, a witch, seems surprised and concerned about how fast Willow is becoming so powerful, easily surpasing her.
So it is inferred in the script and confirmed in the comics.

It occurs to me, that if your gonna blame Giles for any of this, you might as well blame Tara too. She, unlike Giles, actually taught Willow some spells, as well as helping her reach another level of spell-casting after Willow plataued in S4.
Tara was in a better position to watch, teach and guide Willow through her most powerful learning curve, yet she didn't realise, until it was too late, that the magics were harming Willow (or, to be more acurrate than S6, Willow's personality led to magic-abuse.)

And then after all that, just like Giles, she left Willow.