Is Giles responsible for Dark Willow?

[bespangeled]

No, its called acting out of compassion when Willow is off her nut on grief and magic- by your reckoning Xander is interferring in Willow's descisions when she tries to end the world. I mean, she's more in control there right, she's in touch with her humanity? But really, how dare he condesend and try and help her? The nerve! 😛


I guess, by your rational then that Willow isn't special and any person can put in about, oh 5 years of spell research to become a world-destroying magic powerhouse, which makes zero sense.

Certainly Tara, who was raised by her Mother, a witch, seems surprised and concerned about how fast Willow is becoming so powerful, easily surpasing her.
So it is inferred in the script and confirmed in the comics.

It occurs to me, that if your gonna blame Giles for any of this, you might as well blame Tara too. She, unlike Giles, actually taught Willow some spells, as well as helping her reach another level of spell-casting after Willow plataued in S4.
Tara was in a better position to watch, teach and guide Willow through her most powerful learning curve, yet she didn't realise, until it was too late, that the magics were harming Willow (or, to be more acurrate than S6, Willow's personality led to magic-abuse.)

And then after all that, just like Giles, she left Willow.

My blame is a lot more about the choice of an adult who repeatedly engaged a student in something dangerous (the spells that opened her talent) and didn't train her. It's the power difference between adults and kids that bothers me - as well as Willow's need to please authority figures. And the fact that, as I have said, Giles himself had started that way, and had been seduced to the dark side for some period of time. He knew the risks personally.

Tara was her grounding, and Tara did try to teach her. It's just that Willow was way out of her league by then and really enjoying the power trip. I understand why Tara left, but I have to admit that it bothers me. I wish Tara had thought to take her to a ywelve step program for addictions because is her drug.

 

[BuffyElevated]

No, Giles is not responsible for Willow's actions. If Giles is responsible, then they're all responsible. Giles can no more control Willow than Buffy, Xander, Tara, or any of the others. Should he have tried a little more to intervene and help guide her when he saw her abusing magic? Yes, probably. But no one is responsible for Willow's actions other than Willow herself.

 

[Lyri]

Just because Willow was 16 when she cast her first spell doesn't mean that the responsibility for what happened to her should be taken from her shoulders. Giles didn't force her to do, she insisted. Giles also tried to keep certain books away from her and Willow went hunting for them anyway, even though she knew that Giles was trying to protect her by hiding said books.

Tara tells Willow that she's been doing magic since 'always'. That would make her a hell of a lot younger than Willow when she cast her first spell, and yet, she didn't turn out like Willow, even when the person guiding her and teaching her was taken out of her life at a very young age. She still knew how dangerous magic could be and kept herself away from certain spells. Willow made no such choice. She knew the dangers and went ahead anyway.

Tara had just as little guidance as Willow and they turned out wildly different.

That leaves the blame firmly with Willow.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Just because Willow was 16 when she cast her first spell doesn't mean that the responsibility for what happened to her should be taken from her shoulders. Giles didn't force her to do, she insisted. Giles also tried to keep certain books away from her and Willow went hunting for them anyway, even though she knew that Giles was trying to protect her by hiding said books.

Tara tells Willow that she's been doing magic since 'always'. That would make her a hell of a lot younger than Willow when she cast her first spell, and yet, she didn't turn out like Willow, even when the person guiding her and teaching her was taken out of her life at a very young age. She still knew how dangerous magic could be and kept herself away from certain spells. Willow made no such choice. She knew the dangers and went ahead anyway.

Tara had just as little guidance as Willow and they turned out wildly different.

That leaves the blame firmly with Willow.

Agreed.

I always got the strong implication that Willow was supernaturally gifted, even without interference. In the old comics following Giles' grandmother, and the new ones following her and her sisters, Joss makes their family out to be extremely uniquely powerful humans. Willow is even far more gifted than any of them!

It seems like her powers are something she was born with, and had she never met other super-beings, it probably just would have taken a little longer for her to find that power, and be stuck with the decision on whether to use it for good or evil.

 

[EVIL UU]

@thetopher
There is huge difference between what Xander and Giles do, one uses force, the other does not. It's not an act of compassion when you resort to violence, it's not an act of help when you harm.

I guess, by your rational then that Willow isn't special and any person can put in about, oh 5 years of spell research to become a world-destroying magic powerhouse, which makes zero sense.

I don't care if it makes sense or not to you, prove that Willow is indeed special. Give me something solid™.

Certainly Tara, who was raised by her Mother, a witch, seems surprised and concerned about how fast Willow is becoming so powerful, easily surpasing her.

This proves nothing. Willow became more powerful because she worked harder. It's as simple as that, a spell needs to be cast, it's always Willow who sits down to do the painful research and delivers results, be it enjoining spell or resurrection. Magic is like every other craft, you get as much as you put in. Willow simply puts in more than anybody else.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Just playing devil's advocate, cause I hate Willow and don't think she's special at all lol but:

Do you think she put in more time than Amy? I mean, pretty much her whole life after The Witch is about magick...

 

[EVIL UU]

Do you think she put in more time than Amy?

I don't know. It's impossible to answer this question because we just don't know enough about Amy. When did she start doing magic? We don't know. Who taught her? We don't know. What resources did she have access to? We don't know.

 

[thetopher]

@thetopher
There is huge difference between what Xander and Giles do, one uses force, the other does not. It's not an act of compassion when you resort to violence, it's not an act of help when you harm.



I don't care if it makes sense or not to you, prove that Willow is indeed special. Give me something solidâ„¢.



This proves nothing. Willow became more powerful because she worked harder. It's as simple as that, a spell needs to be cast, it's always Willow who sits down to do the painful research and delivers results, be it enjoining spell or resurrection. Magic is like every other craft, you get as much as you put in. Willow simply puts in more than anybody else.

Giles made Willow feel again, if that's not compassion I don't know what is- plus pretty much all of the start of S7 with these two is compassion.

And with the whole 'Willow being special thing' I look at where she started out, and then where she ended up 7 years later.

Both Tara and Giles come from magical backgrounds, have been practising for years and they can't touch Willow in terms of power- so yeah, I'm thinking its something unique to her and not just 'hard work'

If you follow the comics its later confirmed that Willow is special, but some people don't consider them canon.

 

[Kean]

I think Willow has a natural affinity for magic that other magical characters we have encountered don't necessarily have. Instinctually it doesn't come as easy to them as it does Willow. That doesn't count for everything, but it does count. However, instinct or not, it has to be worked at. Natural talent means jack if you don't work at it. For instance, I don't believe Willow's magical talent would have revealed itself to her without her becoming part of the supernatural world. I don't think her power is an inevitability.

A lot goes into Willow ending up where she does in S6. Throughout her formative years she is a wallflower, she is ignored, belittled and bullied. The strengths she does have such as her intellect and work ethic are sources of scorn and place in a position where she is vulnerable around her peers. But then she finds magic and gradually it empowers (figuratively and literally.) Not only that, it compliments all those things about herself that she was ridiculed about for years. Willow reacts to this empowerment in very normal way: she immerses herself in it completely. She seeks out new knowledge (which is just her basic personality trait of hers anyway) and learns absolutely everything she can.

In short, Willow wanted it more than any other character we have encountered in the verse, except maybe for Ethan Rayne. But he was just stupid enough to be charmingly dangerous rather than deadly. She has a connection to magic no one else has, it means more to her. It's, in her opinion, what facilitates her being her true self and the justification and eff you to her past and the people in it.

The more I think about it the more I feel she could not have been stopped by anyone in S6 because as far as she knew, magic had been nothing but the greatest experience of her life. When something feels that right, you don't know how to stop, you don't even know that you need to, not until it hurts you.

 

[EVIL UU]

@thetopher

And with the whole 'Willow being special thing' I look at where she started out, and then where she ended up 7 years later. Both Tara and Giles come from magical backgrounds, have been practising for years and they can't touch Willow in terms of power- so yeah, I'm thinking its something unique to her and not just 'hard work'

Look, I respect your opinion but you obviously can't back it up with anything and actually...no, I don't respect it at all and I'm about to ridicule it and show you just how completely wrong you are @thetopher and everybody else who dares to spew this nonsense.

OK. So the notion that Willow is powerful because she is special in some mysterious way is total and utter bullshit and not just because there's nothing in the script to support it. It's complete and utter bullshit because it disregards the character's progression and everything she stands for too by the way. I mean, her name is WILL for heaven's sake. Will, it's there for a reason.

There is nothing special about Willow and this is the bloody point. She's just a girl who becomes more powerful than freaking Buffy the Vampire Slayer in her own series, just a girl who chooses her own path and shapes her own future and changes the entire world through the power of her own, yeah, yeah, that's right, *WILL*, through her work, her dedication, her strength. Just a girl, just a human, just like you, got it? There is no limit to what you, like Willow, can do or achieve. You're just a girl and you can change the world. All you need is the will to do it. Nothing else.

You know, there's this idea that Buffy is or should be a role model for young women. Be like Buffy! Be special! Be powerful because you were given power! Sacrifice yourself! Have no control over your life, your future, your relationships! Be a good girl! It's just a giant load of crap. But Willow? Well, Willow's decidedly not special.

Giles made Willow feel again

What Giles does, regardless of his intentions, is still an act of violence, still a violation and compassion ends where violence starts. It's really that simple to me. Giles doesn't come to Sunnydale to help Willow, he comes to defeat her, otherwise he wouldn't bring an entire arsenal of magic.

 

[bespangeled]

Just because Willow was 16 when she cast her first spell doesn't mean that the responsibility for what happened to her should be taken from her shoulders. Giles didn't force her to do, she insisted. Giles also tried to keep certain books away from her and Willow went hunting for them anyway, even though she knew that Giles was trying to protect her by hiding said books.

Tara tells Willow that she's been doing magic since 'always'. That would make her a hell of a lot younger than Willow when she cast her first spell, and yet, she didn't turn out like Willow, even when the person guiding her and teaching her was taken out of her life at a very young age. She still knew how dangerous magic could be and kept herself away from certain spells. Willow made no such choice. She knew the dangers and went ahead anyway.

Tara had just as little guidance as Willow and they turned out wildly different.

That leaves the blame firmly with Willow.

Tara's mother taught her - she speaks about it a few times.

Yes - I believe Willow is gifted - that makes it all the more urgent to guide her. She loves magic and does spells whenever she can - that makes it all the more urgent to guide her. I am talking about season one to the end of season three. He asked her to do the spells. He should have known from his own experience that hiding a book makes makes it all the more interesting, and that vague warnings did not curb his own explorations. He didn't force her. He just asked her and he was the adult, the teacher, the father figure. He knew Willow would do what he wanted.

I agree with most of what everyone says. This is on Willow. This is on Warren. They are the ones who went way over the mark. But if Willow had been trained and guided she would have stayed away from dark magic. It was the darl magic that fueled her grief, and took her over.

OTH - no more Buffy though, so the dark magic suits the arcs. Yes a Doylist reason exists.

YMMV on the Watsonian view - there comes a time when you have explained often enough that you must realize that the person you are talking to understands what you are saying - they just disagree. 😉

 

[Tome]

No. Willow is responsible for Willow.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

About Giles keeping the books on the stronger side of magic away from Willow. Did it ever occur to him to have those books not in school? A locked cabinet would have beev good, it sounded like they were on a bookshelf in the passage/ in another room.

Buffy Summers,
I was sorely tempted to agree with the Devils Advocate comment, then I realised that if I agreed with that or upheld your statement, I'd be the advocate. In consequence to what you said, I'd only state the answer.. .. yes.
About the comparison between Amy and Willow, Amy was jealous of Willow's learning curve, magically speaking, because she (Amy) had to study to do the same as what Willow did naturally.

With regards to Tara teaching Willow, they did different types of magic. Tara was wicca Willow wasn't. Tara didn't know enough about magic to help Willow. I got the feeling that several of the coven were scared of how quickly Willow picked up what they taught her. That Willow learnt the art of balance taking (dark) black magic and white magic and combine them to recreate magic. Having the ability to use all magic gave her the knowledge of how to activate slayers worldwide fairly easily.

To answer the question is Giles responsible for Dark Willow, as Tome stated.. .. no. But Giles was responsible for giving Willow the gift to remove the dark from her.

 

[danajsparks]

In the real world, there are many types of professionals who are not allowed to practice without first receiving the proper training -- doctors, public school teachers, pilots, counselors, lawyers, architects, etc. And, usually, the teachers and/or institutions who provide such training must themselves be certified and/or accredited by an official board before they are allowed to teach these subjects.

It's not entirely clear if there are formal training programs for magic users in the Buffyverse (like Hogwarts!), but the existence of the Devon Coven suggests that there probably are.

So, I would say that Giles bears some responsibility in the sense that he mentored Willow in magic when he most likely wasn't qualified to do so. As a Watcher, he was trained to teach slaying, not to teach magic, and he should have insisted that Willow receive some proper, formal training from a qualified teacher before she began regularly practicing magic, especially the more advanced spells.

I mean, he doesn't allow Buffy to carry a crossbow until he's sure that she knows how to use it properly.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Giles isn't responsible for Dark Willow.

But he should have tried to do more. He spoke to Willow briefly, but he should have explained to the others more just how bad it could get.
He never tried to explain the darker side of magic and how apparently addictive it was. We didn't know that as viewers and the other scoobies didn't seem to know it either, even going through their own stuff that season, they wouldn't have know what to look out for.

So he's not responsible, but there's more he could have done.

Look, I respect your opinion but you obviously can't back it up with anything and actually...no, I don't respect it at all and I'm about to ridicule it and show you just how completely wrong you are @thetopher and everybody else who dares to spew this nonsense.

It's mentioned countless times throug out the show that Willow is "special".

Maybe special is the wrong word, Special implies she was always going to be a witch, destined or something, which I dont think is true.

But she's gifted magically. In the same way some athleates are better than other, some just have a natural advantage over others.

Willow has that. Amy, Tara and Rack all allude to that.

And it wasn't just all through study. When The Wachers ask her what level witch she is, she has no idea what he's talking about. She clearly did a lot of study, but study can only get you so far.

I think Willow is responsible for Dark Willow, and the fact that she never accepts that is exactly the problem.

🙂

How so?

She stayed in England to study and learn to use magic properly.
When she got back she didn't jump back into using magic.

The place she's at now she got to because she took the time to uderstand how she had been using magic was wrong and the correct way to use it.

When she loses her magic in season 9, she's upset about loosing her magic, but not because she can no longer control people and do whatever she wants. She's upset becasue her place she'd been establishing in the group wasn't relevant anymore, she'd been fighting evil in a way she couldn't do without magic.

Even though she uses magic for everything, she isn't using magic in the same way she was in season 6, thats directly becasue of what happened, for me that shows responsibility.

She may not show taking responsibility for Warrens death, but that's different.

 

[ashleigh]

Maybe in hindsight Giles was to blame, but he couldn't have known what Willow would do. If he had of, he would never have let Willow practice magic.

I don't think that really anyone is to blame. It's just something that happened because of a series of events.

Personally I think Giles did try to help/guide Willow, but she chose to ignore his guidance, as she ignored Tara. I think maybe Giles had a little more faith in Willow than he perhaps should have

Plus, maybe Giles wouldn't have been the best person to mentor someone who was practising magic, seeing as his own past with magic isn't exactly kosher.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I think maybe Giles had a little more faith in Willow than he perhaps should have

I agree, maybe he trusted Willow too much, but after she threatens him he should then start to question that. I know that ASH wanted to leave the show but they should have re-written Giles better. Or not have Willow threaten him. Or give him more of a motive to leave rather than Buffy needs to learn to live without him or whatever. If he did stay around there may not have been anything he could have done to prevent Dark Willow because the chain of events would have been the same with Warren shooting Tara.

I still think Willow's lack of emotional control is to blame and maybe during her 'rehab' Giles could have helped her try to control it. But even then she probably would have lost it, just cause Tara is dead and Warren is responsible. Maybe she wouldn't have gone as dark and just ended with killing Warren.

 

[bespangeled]

Maybe in hindsight Giles was to blame, but he couldn't have known what Willow would do. If he had of, he would never have let Willow practice magic.

I don't think that really anyone is to blame. It's just something that happened because of a series of events.

Personally I think Giles did try to help/guide Willow, but she chose to ignore his guidance, as she ignored Tara. I think maybe Giles had a little more faith in Willow than he perhaps should have

Plus, maybe Giles wouldn't have been the best person to mentor someone who was practising magic, seeing as his own past with magic isn't exactly kosher.

But, of all people involved, Giles should have known what Willow could do, because Giles did the same sort of things at the same age and they permanently changed him. For that reason Giles should have been the first person to mentor Will - not the last.

 

[Anya2012]

Giles wasn't responsible at all. He always frowned upon Willow's reliance of magic. In the end it was Warren who was responsible for bringing about Dark Willow because he shot Tara.

 

[bespangeled]

Giles wasn't responsible at all. He always frowned upon Willow's reliance of magic. In the end it was Warren who was responsible for bringing about Dark Willow because he shot Tara.

He depended on her magic to survive more than once, when she was only a student at the school. Since he was the one who used her talents then he should have trained her because he had personal knowledge of what happened to an untrained but powerful and adventurous teen.

Warren and Willow were also responsible, as I have said. But Giles was remiss in not training Willow.