Is it true what Lindsay said?

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wehappyfew

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When Angel and Lindsay are talking about "fighting" in "Not Fade Away....Lindsay says something like "Isn't the world already theirs? (evil's)"

Sure, there is darkness in all of us. The W+R+H and the First Evil are all apart of us...

So, if the world started out evil...and evil is as strong and as bad as it is made in Angel, is there even a shot that "good" has a chance?

I'd like to think so.
I keep thinking about Illyria in all of this. Symbolism aside (evil as a parasite)...she's disappointed in this world. She's upset that nightmares have resigned to head games....so that means that while "good" might not be winning...but "good" is surely gaining on "evil." Because since the Old Ones left this place...things have gotten a bit sunnier. Nightmares are less than vampires now. There's hope for this world yet. The world may be in the "darks" hands but I think "good" is planning an interception...and a slam dunk....and a 3 point for the freakin' win.

So keep fighting.
There's beauty in the breakdown.
----
Oh! and humans aren't as weak as they all like to say....we're pretty bad ass. We just hide it well.
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
I like your optimism. :-)
I like this post, wehappyfew 🙂

One of the biggest themes in Angel/Buffy to me is this idea of Good Vs. Evil and the gray area. And how can we distinguish the two? Are some people inherently good or evil? Like Angel says, "We live as though the world were as it should be, to show what it can be." Even if there is evil, even if there will always be evil - it still pays to fight it, to make a difference in even one persons life. The battle will never be "won", no. They will keep on fighting. That's the point. That's why the ending of Angel was so abrupt. The idea was to show that it never really ends. The fight, the "war".
 
Of course it was true. I said it.


Oh. *ahem*

Of course. :blush:

No, I don't think the world is lost to evil. It's often the case that evil is so much more visible than good, and that leads to this kind of pessimistic outlook. The PTB are moving the chess pieces just as much as the WR&H are - the only major victory that evil ever had was in the comics. Before that, the balance was never really tipped, if you think about it. People have evil in them, but they also have good. Acting normal is acting good, but it's so normal that it's almost invisible.
 
Lindsey McDonald said:
Of course it was true. I said it.


Oh. *ahem*

Of course. :blush:

No, I don't think the world is lost to evil. It's often the case that evil is so much more visible than good, and that leads to this kind of pessimistic outlook. The PTB are moving the chess pieces just as much as the WR&H are - the only major victory that evil ever had was in the comics. Before that, the balance was never really tipped, if you think about it. People have evil in them, but they also have good. Acting normal is acting good, but it's so normal that it's almost invisible.
Click to expand...


I guess this post marks the terms "good" and "normal" as relative.
 
wehappyfew said:
I guess this post marks the terms "good" and "normal" as relative.
Click to expand...

Well, by "normal" I mean innoffensive and bland. Not being bad. Of course, this isn't always "good" - passivity in the wrong circumstances can be very naughty indeed, but I certainly don't see it as a neutral space between good and evil. A person not being bad is more on the side of good than evil - at least in my reckoning.
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
I agree. Doing nothing is better than doing something evil.
I don't think either could ever take over. It'd always be a similar balance it wouldn't be like pure evil or pure good. The balance of the two is why none took over the other.
 
Spuffy78 said:
I don't think either could ever take over. It'd always be a similar balance it wouldn't be like pure evil or pure good. The balance of the two is why none took over the other.
Click to expand...

True. But in Angel's world many people say that the scales aren't balanced...esp by the end of season 5.
 
wehappyfew said:
True. But in Angel's world many people say that the scales aren't balanced...esp by the end of season 5.
Click to expand...

The thing is that they aren't evenly balanced. Although there's more evil than good there's not enough bad to take over the good entirely.
 
This is a neat question.

I think it's all a matter of perspective. What is "good?" What is "evil?" As time marches on, the Buffyverse deals more and more with the gray areas in between. Angel, the hero and title character of After the Fall, is the ultimate personification of the balance. Meanwhile Buffy, chosen warrior for the good guys, is lining her pockets with stolen Nazi treasure and allying herself with ultimate baddies like Dracu-freakin'-la (who, as I recall, pretty clearly represented her own dark side in the BtVS episode in which he appeared). Willow, the most powerful being on the planet (save for possibly Illyria), struggles with the same duality, only hers is more concentrated on the scalp region and puts her hairstylist out of work. Even Illyria, an old one in a new world and a stolen shell, is conflicted by a very dual nature and most often finds herself fighting for the "good" side that once destroyed and took over her world. Many of the Buffy characters, plots, and settings contain this essential duality. "Good" from a human's POV probably looks a lot like "bad" to a whole lot of demons, and a lot like Hell according to W&H. And let's not forget that these fantastic representations and exaggerations of good and evil are, at heart, metaphors for human nature. All things considered, I think the Buffyverse is about coming to the realization that there is no absolute good or absolute evil. Good and evil depend on one's perspective and "winning" the struggle between the sides requires that both sides take a step back and examine the other side's POV.
 
W
wehappyfew
:) love this post
palabravampiress said:
This is a neat question.

I think it's all a matter of perspective. What is "good?" What is "evil?" As time marches on, the Buffyverse deals more and more with the gray areas in between. Angel, the hero and title character of After the Fall, is the ultimate personification of the balance. Meanwhile Buffy, chosen warrior for the good guys, is lining her pockets with stolen Nazi treasure and allying herself with ultimate baddies like Dracu-freakin'-la (who, as I recall, pretty clearly represented her own dark side in the BtVS episode in which he appeared). Willow, the most powerful being on the planet (save for possibly Illyria), struggles with the same duality, only hers is more concentrated on the scalp region and puts her hairstylist out of work. Even Illyria, an old one in a new world and a stolen shell, is conflicted by a very dual nature and most often finds herself fighting for the "good" side that once destroyed and took over her world. Many of the Buffy characters, plots, and settings contain this essential duality. "Good" from a human's POV probably looks a lot like "bad" to a whole lot of demons, and a lot like Hell according to W&H. And let's not forget that these fantastic representations and exaggerations of good and evil are, at heart, metaphors for human nature. All things considered, I think the Buffyverse is about coming to the realization that there is no absolute good or absolute evil. Good and evil depend on one's perspective and "winning" the struggle between the sides requires that both sides take a step back and examine the other side's POV.
Click to expand...

i already agreed and you really opened my thoughts up for the evening...but i did want to say that it's still weird for me to think of Willow as the most powerful being on the planet...it's WILLOW.
 
Great post! Ultimately I think the message wasn't so much that evil will win as that heroes will always have to step up and fight it. It's one of my favorite themes, and it's why I watch shows like Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and (although not a Whedon invention) Supernatural, because it's a message that resonates with me. I find the characters that take it upon themselves to fight against evil, that face the odds lined up against them and give up everything because it's the right thing to do, are the ones that mean the most. I love my Big Damn Heroes.
 
You know, everytime some bad guy said that the earth is doomed and we good guys are weak, I keep asking myself "So humanity is erased and/or being tortured daily, hating every minute of life, since when now?"

There's hate, there's indifference, there's evil and there's love.
 
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