Is it weird that season 6 didn't touch on Dawn's existence

[garfan]

Is that strange? I mean big issues are the unnatural way Buffy is brought to life and memory alterations

Ok, they touched on the whole is she real thing in season 5, with a yes; the whole Summers blood thing

But why not question "Should I be real, if it's wrong to play with life and death that way? To mess with people's minds that way?"

 

[famicommander]

Dawn is human by that point. Whatever she was before and however she got to that point, she's a (relatively) normal teenage girl. It may be worth contemplating the morality of what the monks did, but there's nothing really to be done about it after the fact. All the people who had any say in creating Dawn were murdered. Dawn did nothing wrong and the gang is certainly not doing anything wrong by treating her like a normal human being.

 

[Stake fodder]

Dawn did nothing wrong and the gang is certainly not doing anything wrong by treating her like a normal human being.

I don't think it would be a matter of rejecting Dawn, but if I were one of the Scoobs, I might spend a certain amount of mind-wandering time wondering how certain memories played out before Dawn was inserted into them. So I agree that it's a little odd they never touched on it. Clearly, the writers just wanted to move on.

 

[famicommander]

I don't think it would be a matter of rejecting Dawn, but if I were one of the Scoobs, I might spend a certain amount of mind-wandering time wondering how certain memories played out before Dawn was inserted into them. So I agree that it's a little odd they never touched on it. Clearly, the writers just wanted to move on.

Later on in the comics the false memories of Dawn begin to fade at some point, if I recall correctly.

 

[NotASlayer]

I think Dawn's prior existence was somewhat irrelevant by that point from a story point of view. Especially as there were no plans after the first five seasons, so they didn't know what they were doing.

Yes, if Dawn had become the Key again like Anya became a demon again, it would have been relevant - at the end of S5, the two were very similar, both being older entities transformed by magic into Californian teenagers - but without another fundamental alteration in what she was, she was for all intents and purposes a regular human teenager.

 

[garfan]

Dawn is human by that point. Whatever she was before and however she got to that point, she's a (relatively) normal teenage girl. It may be worth contemplating the morality of what the monks did, but there's nothing really to be done about it after the fact. All the people who had any say in creating Dawn were murdered. Dawn did nothing wrong and the gang is certainly not doing anything wrong by treating her like a normal human being.

if that was the case why bother with worry of the consequences of Buffy's resurrection?

My point is why is creating a human being out of nothing less consequential than raising a dead one?

 

[famicommander]

if that was the case why bother with worry of the consequences of Buffy's resurrection?

My point is why is creating a human being out of nothing less consequential than raising a dead one?

The reason Buffy's resurrection was an issue was because there was no guarantee that they'd be able to defeat the demon that came with her and there was no guarantee Buffy would come back as herself in the first place. As Spike implied, there was a chance she'd come back as some distorted version of herself which could be extremely dangerous. Or maybe the god(s) that Willow invoked would simply get pissed and smite them all. Basically, Willow was meddling with forces beyond her control and she bet the safety of the world on it because she couldn't cope with life without Buffy. That's why Giles was upset at her.

Later on they also had to deal with the fact that the entire process and everything it entailed left severe psychological scars on Buffy, but that wasn't a known factor going into the process.

Dawn doesn't have any such baggage attached. She was not created out of nothing, she was energy converted into a human being. But Dawn and the gang had no say or part in that process, that was something that the monks did without their input or knowledge. All the monks who helped create Dawn were murdered by Glory anyway, so there's nobody left to punish or feel any remorse. Nobody in the Scooby Gang did anything to bring about Dawn's existence and the threat that came along with her existence was simply that she could be used (against her will) by Glory to end the world. The gang responded to that issue (eventually) by killing Glory, so with that wrapped up there's nothing left to do. Dawn from that point forwards is just a normal kid whose existence is no threat or harm to anyone else, and there's nothing for any of the Gang to feel guilty about or to try to make amends for.

You could argue it was wrong of the monks to tamper with everybody's memories to make them care about Dawn, and that's valid. But again, Dawn had no say in that and all the monks are dead anyway. And, knowing what we know about Buffy, it's incredibly likely that she'd have agreed to protect an innocent girl regardless of the memories. Buffy of all people understands and sympathizes with a girl thrust into dangerous, unfair circumstances beyond her control.

 

[garfan]

The reason Buffy's resurrection was an issue was because there was no guarantee that they'd be able to defeat the demon that came with her and there was no guarantee Buffy would come back as herself in the first place. As Spike implied, there was a chance she'd come back as some distorted version of herself which could be extremely dangerous. Or maybe the god(s) that Willow invoked would simply get pissed and smite them all. Basically, Willow was meddling with forces beyond her control and she bet the safety of the world on it because she couldn't cope with life without Buffy. That's why Giles was upset at her.

Later on they also had to deal with the fact that the entire process and everything it entailed left severe psychological scars on Buffy, but that wasn't a known factor going into the process.

Dawn doesn't have any such baggage attached. She was not created out of nothing, she was energy converted into a human being. But Dawn and the gang had no say or part in that process, that was something that the monks did without their input or knowledge. All the monks who helped create Dawn were murdered by Glory anyway, so there's nobody left to punish or feel any remorse. Nobody in the Scooby Gang did anything to bring about Dawn's existence and the threat that came along with her existence was simply that she could be used (against her will) by Glory to end the world. The gang responded to that issue (eventually) by killing Glory, so with that wrapped up there's nothing left to do. Dawn from that point forwards is just a normal kid whose existence is no threat or harm to anyone else, and there's nothing for any of the Gang to feel guilty about or to try to make amends for.

You could argue it was wrong of the monks to tamper with everybody's memories to make them care about Dawn, and that's valid. But again, Dawn had no say in that and all the monks are dead anyway. And, knowing what we know about Buffy, it's incredibly likely that she'd have agreed to protect an innocent girl regardless of the memories. Buffy of all people understands and sympathizes with a girl thrust into dangerous, unfair circumstances beyond her control.

Do the Scoobies know what spell was used to create her? If not how can they be sure about the no baggage attached? Where'd her soul come from? Does she not have one. Was they Key able to be able to be turned into both body AND soul?

If turning something into something else is okay, then would it have been cool if Willow had bound Buffy's soul to the Buffybot and turned it into a real girl, that would have been okay?

 

[famicommander]

Do the Scoobies know what spell was used to create her? If not how can they be sure about the no baggage attached? Where'd her soul come from? Does she not have one. Was they Key able to be able to be turned into both body AND soul?

If turning something into something else is okay, then would it have been cool if Willow had bound Buffy's soul to the Buffybot and turned it into a real girl, that would have been okay?

I really don't understand your insistence upon making this association. There are clearly no consequences shown regarding Dawn after they've killed Glory. I would imagine she came about her soul in the same fashion that newborn humans do (which is also never explained), but does it really matter? Dawn is shown to be a functioning, relatively normal girl and member of their group/family. And, yet again, they didn't create Dawn. The consequences of her creation were not the responsibility of the Scoobies.

The situation with Buffy is not at all comparable. In that instance the Gang chose to ignore or accept known, incredibly serious potential consequences and even after everything ended up going as they planned (at least as far as what they accounted for) they still ended up with the demon biker gang invading the town, the extra demon hitchhiker coming back with her, a severely traumatized Buffy, the total loss of the Buffybot, and Willow's continued plunge into addiction to magic/power. The characters make a big deal of the ongoing consequences BECAUSE the consequences continue to hit them right in the face.

The consequences to Dawn's creation (which, again, was an action undertaken by murdered monks they didn't even know existed) were dealt with in season 5. After the threat of Glory is removed there are never any further ill-effects of Dawn's existence shown, so I'm not sure what you would expect the Scoobies to be doing about it.

 

[garfan]

I really don't understand your insistence upon making this association. There are clearly no consequences shown regarding Dawn after they've killed Glory. I would imagine she came about her soul in the same fashion that newborn humans do (which is also never explained), but does it really matter? Dawn is shown to be a functioning, relatively normal girl and member of their group/family. And, yet again, they didn't create Dawn. The consequences of her creation were not the responsibility of the Scoobies.

yes, it does matter to me. Because I actually think turning non human thing into human thing is weirder and more of an alteration of the world than reviving a dead human. And I think it is crappy writing to pretend it is not, especially when the next two seasons will be all about how reviving the dead human is some catastrophic thing.

I think the Scoobies should be looking into it. After all, the only way they knew about the consequences of Buffy's resurrection was the First actually attacking

ANd considering the Monks were dead(and they had to pass the buck to solved a problem they had) and the Knights of Byzantium had been slaughtered any consequences would have to be dealt with by the Scoobies whether it was there responsibility or not

And most of all, I want similar things to be acknowledged and compared

 

[famicommander]

There's really no similarity here at all. The problem isn't that they brought Buffy back in a vacuum, the problem is that the methodology used to bring her back blew up in all their faces from day one and continued to do so for more than a year afterwards. And the stuff with the First was more a consequence of a break in the Slayer line, not necessarily the act of resurrection itself. If they had resurrected anybody else all the other problems would still have applied, but the First was a unique consequence of it being a Slayer.

There were immediate and ongoing consequences that had to be dealt with after bringing Buffy back and that's why it was a problem. The consequences of Dawn's existence were all dealt with when Glory was killed. The story was already wrapped up and completed.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

My headcanon is this, the Key, in its native form, has a recharge cycle, where it dimishes, then slowly regenerates. In practice, Dawn is still the human incarnation of the Key, but the Key is basically resting, and will be inactive for the remainder of the series. Had Dawn died, the Key essence would have sublimated out, and would have reformed in its native dimension, depending on what exactly the key is. If the Key doesn't have a recharge cycle, like it was a WMD made by demons or gods for a long ago war that the Monks just bumped into, then, enough of Key remained to form Dawn, not unlike Illyria, only weaker.

 

[nightshade]

Yes, if Dawn had become the Key again like Anya became a demon again, it would have been relevant - at the end of S5, the two were very similar, both being older entities transformed by magic into Californian teenagers.

I would have loved a bonding scene between, a I got stuck as a teenager too, why couldn't Dawn have been an aunt or older sister, instead of a teenager!

However, didn't Willow threaten to turn Dawn back into a ball of energy when she was all powered up and dark?

 

[NotASlayer]

I would have loved a bonding scene between, a I got stuck as a teenager too, why couldn't Dawn have been an aunt or older sister, instead of a teenager!

However, didn't Willow threaten to turn Dawn back into a ball of energy when she was all powered up and dark?

Yes, she did, and that did show that the Key was still there under Dawn's human flesh puppet and false memories.

Anya and Dawn could definitely have bonded. Both were something turned into a human through magic, although Anya did originally start of as a human. Both also had false memories of things that didn't happen. In Dawn's case, that was the implanted memories of a childhood that never happened; in Anya's that was her memories of the Wishverse and all of Anyanka's experiences.

Both might have ended up losing their false memories, given time; the Key's power overwriting the implanted memories and personality of Dawn and Anya's squishy human brain losing the demon memories of things that happened in a different universe.

 

[Cohen]

My biggest issue with Dawn at the end of season 5 and beginning of season 6, is that for nearly the whole season, Buffy and the Scoobies were “protecting” Dawn like the moment Glory found out about her, she would use her as the Key to unlock the gateways to other dimensions.. in a very immediate fashion.

However, it’s established at the last minute that the Key can ONLY be used at a precise moment of time and at a precise location. So this key is thousands of years old, but anyone who wants to use it has to wait until some May day in 2002?

This is a plotpoint that could have been further explored. If she is the Key to some mystical gateway88

 

[garfan]

There's really no similarity here at all. The problem isn't that they brought Buffy back in a vacuum, the problem is that the methodology used to bring her back blew up in all their faces from day one and continued to do so for more than a year afterwards. And the stuff with the First was more a consequence of a break in the Slayer line, not necessarily the act of resurrection itself. If they had resurrected anybody else all the other problems would still have applied, but the First was a unique consequence of it being a Slayer.

There were immediate and ongoing consequences that had to be dealt with after bringing Buffy back and that's why it was a problem. The consequences of Dawn's existence were all dealt with when Glory was killed. The story was already wrapped up and completed.

The methodology? You mean the methodology of using an established ritual, that had apparently previously worked successfully. And the world never ended for those people. I wonder how many of them had survived all the stuff the Scoobies had

However, didn't Willow threaten to turn Dawn back into a ball of energy when she was all powered up and dark?

she did. But making the threat doesn't equal the ability

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Ritual; The timing in this season is the worst. Glory is a ancient nameless god, but Ben was born in 1975. But, the Stars being right isn't too much of a plot hole. Remember, Glory didn't exist until The Beast somehow somehow found out that the Key existed on Earth, allowing it to gather up enough willpower to reshape reality into Glory, and gather some followers together. Dawn only exists because Glory was after the Key. The knowledge that there was a chance to use the Key was what fueled her incarnation.

No, The Monks weren't monks, they were Alchemists. They were doing transmogrification. With Buffy, it was a ritual to propitiate Osiris so he would be willing to open the gates of Hades and allow Willow to pull Buffy from the afterlife. Two totally different magics.