Is S4 the product of bad ideas, or good ideas that didn't work?

[Robb Stark]

S4 seems to be the least popular Buffy season (even I don't really think there are any "bad" seasons of the show), and I'm a little conflicted on why that's so. I mean, on the surface, The Initiative seems like a really cool idea. But for whatever reason, it just never clicked. Ditto for Adam. But with Riley, the way he was built up, I just never liked him. What do you guys think?

 

[Xin Rong]

I think it comes down to the fact that people don't like change... this season was different toi the previous three, therefore people are more critical for it... although I agree that it's not as good. Riley is a poor substitute for Angel, but I quite liked Adam as the big bad.

 

[ChrissTheFreak]

For me it wasn't up to Joss Whedon's standard. Season 4 is pretty bad. I think that the whole initiative was a bad idea. Well maby it wasn't bad but it wasn't handled the right way. It's my least favorite season... But on the other hand we got Hush that season, which is one of the best episodes.

 

[Jodast]

I still really like season 4. I agree with [MENTION=5421]Xin Rong[/MENTION] that it was people adjusting (or failing to adjust) to the changes in the show for the most part. Angel was gone, so the central love theme had disappeared and no-one no matter who they were was going to replace him in the viewers' minds. At least not until a few years later when another well established character stepped into the fray.

They changed the setting of the show as well. Gone were the small comfortable environs of high school, to be replaced by university and the big wide world outside. After three years of something bad happend-research it in the library-kick its butt, things changed a little. They writers had Buffy make mistakes in the real world which we hadn't seen before, which made her seem more human and a more well rounded character but I do undertsand why people might not like that.

The big bad wasn't the greatest but they made it so that the way he was defeated was pretty cool and they built in some Slayer back story, which was enjoyable. If somewhat trippy 🙂

With these things in mind, it made season 4 much easier to watch on subsequent viewings, although I will admit that I wasn't a huge fan of it the first time through.

 

[Tome]

S4 is the product of good ideas that WORKED, and also some ideas that didn't work.

S4 is one of my favorites simply because it is the funniest season. It also has a couple of the best episodes in the show: Restless, Hush, Primeval, Who Are You, Wild At Heart, Fear Itself, ect.

The only thing that kinda lacked in that season was drama. S2 and S3 had a bunch, and S5 was packed with it. I guess S4 was more light-hearted... which wasn't bad, imo. 🙂

 

[Steven123]

I think it will always have mixed opinions. A lot of people like it where as others would probably have it at the end of the list. It had good ideas that perhaps didn't come across as they were hoped they would. There was also quite a big change as a whole which maybe some people didn't want to see in the way it had been portrayed. Overall S4 had more good episodes than bad,but there was definitely room for improvement in my opinion.

 

[Groge]

I agree it's not an amazing season but there are some really good episodes. I've never been a fan of the initiative and I didn't like Adam as the Big Bad but then you've got episodes like Hush, Restless and one of my favourites, Pangs (mainly for the Spike humour!). The way Adam was defeated was very cool though and the repercussions of the spell in Restless were great.
We also got Tara and the return of Faith. We also saw the gang grow as individuals as they drifted apart during the season. Some great moments in season 4 but still not my favourite. The overall Initiative thing was a good idea I guess but I didn't like it. Basically because they all, especially Maggie Walsh, annoyed the hell out of me. On the other hand, they was supposed to!
The season was just to military and not enough fantasy/demons etc. and there was no where near as much dusting!

 

[Hale Caesar]

I love change. But this season was full of bad ideas

- Oz getting written off the show (very abruptly)
- Buffy being "weak" during the beginning of the season
- The Scoobies all drifting apart
- Giles becoming less and less relevant to the show
- Adam being the worst Big Bad ever
- Spike becoming comedic relief
- And this one might just be me, but Faith wasn't that great in season 4, I liked her when she went to Angel

All of these sound like bad ideas to me. All that being said, Season 7 is still the worst Buffy season.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think it was the execution, cuz in theory I like the idea.

Like for 3 seasons we're built up as a mythology show, and then we're introduced to a concept of the military invading the mythological, it's a great mix of a real sterile, strict regime meeting a fantasy world, and I think had they brought them together more and played off the two concepts colliding more, it could have been more interesting.

I always loved the idea that Riley basically thought of all demons as evil and not worth giving a second thought to killing them, whereas Buffy thought of them as individual, and how mad she got when she found out he thought like that.

 

[AmelRIOT]

This isn't my worst season but I'm not a fan of it season 3 and 2 will always win for me, I think the Initiative was a good idea first it's like Buffy vs an army when they are on the same side but it got boring quick, Adam was good first but he was very dull and could not beat Faith, Mr Trick and The Mayor/Snake to me. Riley could of been a lot better but he was very cardboard like people said. I love a lot of episodes on this season but I think people didn't like it cause it was new location Oz, Cordy and Angel all left and they were popular characters. I hated how Oz left cheating? I thought that was horrid, I didn't like how Buffy and Willow moved on quick and like others said Buffy being weak in the beginning, plus I prefer bad boy Spike. But I can still enjoy this season 🙂

 

[Fusions2]

I actually enjoyed season 4, there were a few things that I didn't like. Mostly the whole army under the college campus was a little hard to like. I found Maggie Walsh a pain in the arse. I think if we'd had a little more background on it along with Adam it may have been more liked. The season was all about change and finding it's feet, I think the writers wanted to show how difficult it would be. The finale made up for it with the dreams and opening up more of the mythology of the Slayer and the cryptic messages surrounding Dawn.

 

[Aimee]

Season 4 had some great episodes (even if the season as a whole didn't match other seasons):
Something Blue
Pangs
Hush
A New Man
Superstar

But yeah, to be fair, I only listed 5 episodes as being great...

I guess what I didn't like was:
Buffy moving on so quickly with Riley (oh so wholesome) Finn
Willow moving on with Tara (lovely girl but REALLY dull)
No more Oz 🙁
The group drifting apart

 

[randiann]

I agree with [MENTION=12004]Aimee[/MENTION], Season 4 has some of my very favorite standalones. Hush is amazing, Something Blue is hilarious, Pangs is one of my favorites (I love to make fun of the so very outlandish stereotyping in this episode), and taken individually, I really do enjoy most the episodes (not Beer Bad though. Never Beer Bad). But I think what it really boils down to is the disjointed feeling that arose from the dissolution of the Season 1-3 cast. Season 4 loses so many pivotal figures and important supporting cast (Oz, Cordelia, and Angel, among others) and the entire group drifts apart. As the group drifts, the overall tone changes and goes through this incredibly awkward growing phase. But this is really the point of Season 4. Life changes. People change. College and growing up and maturing into adults changes people and their relationships. You find yourself trying to desperately relate to your best friend who you talked to every day in high school, and yet not being able to connect. As we grow through life, our experiences change and shape us and a lot of times this means people begin to drift. It takes a lot of work to maintain friendships through these pivotal points in our lives, and I think that is where Season 4 really shines. It's not pretty. It's not always fun and entertaining and gripping. It's disjointed. It's awkward. It's a bit lonely at times. And because of this, Season 4 is all that much more real to me (despite FrankenAdam).

I think Season 4 has so many shining points that people gloss over simply because its uncomfortable to see people and their relationships changing and outgrowing each other and striving to maintain what they had previously. It's not about the Scooby Gang like Seasons 1-3. It's not about how everyone has a crush on each other and high school drama. It's about that transition between being a teenager and becoming an adult, and there is something beautiful in watching these people struggle as they grow and try to maintain their relationships with each other. Season 4 happens to be one of my favorite seasons for these reasons. I wouldn't say it's based in any way on bad ideas. It didn't click, and it didn't click for a reason. Buffy and the gang were not at a point in their fictional lives where they could click with each other, and I like being able to see this other side of the coin. So many shows fail to acknowledge these points in life in a relatable way in my opinion. Buffy not only portrays this awkwardness but puts it straight in the face of the viewer.

Sidenote, even though it is one of my least favorite season finales, Restless is a pretty perfect way to cap off a season like Season 4. It really manages to highlight the entire tone of the entire season and showcase how weird this season is, and how painful it can be to go through these periods of change.

 

[Robb Stark]

I agree with [MENTION=12004]Aimee[/MENTION], Season 4 has some of my very favorite standalones. Hush is amazing, Something Blue is hilarious, Pangs is one of my favorites (I love to make fun of the so very outlandish stereotyping in this episode), and taken individually, I really do enjoy most the episodes (not Beer Bad though. Never Beer Bad). But I think what it really boils down to is the disjointed feeling that arose from the dissolution of the Season 1-3 cast. Season 4 loses so many pivotal figures and important supporting cast (Oz, Cordelia, and Angel, among others) and the entire group drifts apart. As the group drifts, the overall tone changes and goes through this incredibly awkward growing phase. But this is really the point of Season 4. Life changes. People change. College and growing up and maturing into adults changes people and their relationships. You find yourself trying to desperately relate to your best friend who you talked to every day in high school, and yet not being able to connect. As we grow through life, our experiences change and shape us and a lot of times this means people begin to drift. It takes a lot of work to maintain friendships through these pivotal points in our lives, and I think that is where Season 4 really shines. It's not pretty. It's not always fun and entertaining and gripping. It's disjointed. It's awkward. It's a bit lonely at times. And because of this, Season 4 is all that much more real to me (despite FrankenAdam).

I think Season 4 has so many shining points that people gloss over simply because its uncomfortable to see people and their relationships changing and outgrowing each other and striving to maintain what they had previously. It's not about the Scooby Gang like Seasons 1-3. It's not about how everyone has a crush on each other and high school drama. It's about that transition between being a teenager and becoming an adult, and there is something beautiful in watching these people struggle as they grow and try to maintain their relationships with each other. Season 4 happens to be one of my favorite seasons for these reasons. I wouldn't say it's based in any way on bad ideas. It didn't click, and it didn't click for a reason. Buffy and the gang were not at a point in their fictional lives where they could click with each other, and I like being able to see this other side of the coin. So many shows fail to acknowledge these points in life in a relatable way in my opinion. Buffy not only portrays this awkwardness but puts it straight in the face of the viewer.

Sidenote, even though it is one of my least favorite season finales, Restless is a pretty perfect way to cap off a season like Season 4. It really manages to highlight the entire tone of the entire season and showcase how weird this season is, and how painful it can be to go through these periods of change.

This was a really interesting explanation, and it makes a lot of sense. I suppose I never really gave it much thought that maybe S4 wasn't actually supposed to click, and that maybe that was the whole point. In that regard, and for many of the reasons you outlined, it's one of the most realistic seasons.

I always assumed that S6 was the one most designed to be a commentary on how tough becoming an adult and taking on some of the mundane responsibilities of real life can be. I never really gave that a ton of thought to S4, but I think it fits.

 

[brinkster130]

I love season 4 and IMO it has several really good ideas, some of which I think worked well and others that weren't executed as well as they could have been.

When shows transition from a high school setting to a more grownup college setting I think it takes some time to get use to. Add to that several popular characters leaving, a more human big bad than we've seen in the past and less drama and I can see why some people would dislike it. I don't think it was best season but I've always enjoyed it.

 

[NightBird]

...episodes like Hush, Restless and one of my favourites, Pangs (mainly for the Spike humour!). The way Adam was defeated was very cool though and the repercussions of the spell in Restless were great.
We also got Tara and the return of Faith.

I was about to say that season 4 is my least favourite season, as when I do a full season run through I always stall here, but the above quote is full of pure awesome moments.

Now i'm confused!

 

[Groge]

I was about to say that season 4 is my least favourite season, as when I do a full season run through I always stall here, but the above quote is full of pure awesome moments.

Now i'm confused!

haha thanks! Yeah, as an overall season it's certainly not my favourite but there are a number of great or "pure awesome" moments! 😀

 

[Doppelgang]

I found it very difficult to get into season 4 first time round. The first few episodes are so disjointed from what you have come to know and love from the previous seasons. But then, the high school was destroyed in season 3 and they were moving on to college so there were bound to be some big changes.

In the light of what comes in season 5 and 6 it is easier to get into a rewatch of season 4, including some of the great episodes, and I then find myself wondering why I did not love this series first time round.

 

[Robb Stark]

I found it very difficult to get into season 4 first time round. The first few episodes are so disjointed from what you have come to know and love from the previous seasons. But then, the high school was destroyed in season 3 and they were moving on to college so there were bound to be some big changes.

In the light of what comes in season 5 and 6 it is easier to get into a rewatch of season 4, including some of the great episodes, and I then find myself wondering why I did not love this series first time round.

I think this sums up how I feel about S4 really well. The first time seeing it through, I was frustrated by it. After everything with Angel I couldn't get into Riley, I missed seeing them in high school (I missed Snyder!). There were just problems I had with it. But re-watching it, I enjoyed it immensely more. When you know that Riley doesn't end up with Buffy, that Spike is still to come and that Angel doesn't just go away, he's much more tolerable.

Plus, S4 has some great stand alone episodes that I didn't fully appreciate the first time through. Spike with the chip in his head being hidden by the Scoobies is gold. There are a lot of great things about the season I missed or didn't appreciate the first time I watched it.

 

[DeadFlagBlues]

I actually like season 4 quite a bit. Yes, there is a lot of change but I thought it was fairly realistic...er...as far as their experiences in trying to find themselves and establish a new group dynamic. I also like the initiative and Spike in this season. I'm rewatching this season and each episode is entertaining, funny, or sad. It has a good range so I can't bad mouth it.

I think I go against what most fans like because I love seasons 6 and 7, hate season 1, and could take or leave season 2.