IS Spike unique in his humanity

[Hello Cutie]

Buffy says a few times in Season 6 of Buffy that Spike is a monster who couldn't love her because he doesn't know what love is (sorry, the episode name escapes me, but I have a feeling it's the one where he tries to rape her).

So the question is, does he have humanity originally?? Just because vampires don't have souls doesn't mean they can't recreate feelings, or as close as possible to the feelings they would have, had they a soul to feel with. I mean, if they have the thoughts and memories of the person who's body they're walking around in, then surely they can feel the feelings the body had prior to becoming a demon, and so can recreate those feelings towards others??

I'd have to agree with Nerd4hire with regards to the idea that with some people the demon doesn't take as well as with others... I'm wondering if that's to do with how much humanity they had before.. Look at pre-vampire William/Spike. How much humanity and love does he have there- you can practically see it like an aura around him- his love for Cecilie and for his mother and just everything about him. So I would assume when he became a vampire, the demon in him tapped into this and could recreate the feelings as it were, because its such a strong part of what he was as a person, and the demon inside essentially recreates the person it was.

Also, just because he didnt spend all that time brooding doesn't necessarily he had more humanity when ensouled than ensouled Angel did. It just means he know that it didn't matter what happened, he couldnt make up for everything he'd done in the past- couldn't change it, bring it back, so he moved on... its always there with him, but he can't live his life in the past- he has to make a difference now instead. Whereas Angel was just a broody miserable git who tortured himself with the memories on purpose... sort of a sadistic way of making himself feel better for it all.

 

[Kemy]

It does seem that the fragment of Demon soul that creates the Vampire varies from person to person.

Angel has a Demon half that is more like a split personality, it still exists almost entirely on its own, dominating him when he is Angelus, submerging into his subconscious when he is Angel.

His brooding and cold nature seem to stem from 250 years of Liam, a good for nothing lout, coming to see the larger world and being suffocated beneath this demonic soul mascarading in his body, a sobering and unnerving existence thats created a more closed off and contemplative Liam.

Spike however seems to be one with his Demon half, still the same old underdog William free to let every indecent thought and impulse he ever had (and didn't he ever have them when he was still Human? 😉) by having what seems like more of a supplement to his own nature, rather than two fighting for dominance.

Even Holden, when he was turned it almost looked like his life spent studying Human nature had allowed his own consciousness to step back and observe his Vampiric half with some level of detachment we haven't seen before.

Its like a twin essence in the same body, some fight each other, some coexist, some overwrite the other entirely.

 

[PhenixRising]

Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live. You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done... and to care. I haven't fed on a living human being since that day.

I'll get back to this at a later date but the absence of a conscience is a hallmark of a person with anti-social personality disorder. In fact a human can not make a real emotional connection with out a conscience. Thats just simple fact.

And I've been thinking a lot about Spike lately because I'm re-watching season 7. Originally I did not think that I saw any of season 7 but I believe I stopped watching it mid way through. I also saw an episode with Caleb but I never saw the Turuk-Han which is definitely a rip off from LoTR. Alright back to Spike. I believe my main gripe is that people in fandom believe that a Vampire can love with out a soul. If Angel's quote is canon then it is clearly impossible. Vampiric love would manifest as obsession. Spike can say he loved Buffy all he wants but that word would ring hollow since he is incapable of that form of connection. I realize that Joss made his best effort to explain that William was special but to me he is just attempting to cover his tracks.

Joss has made a major mistake in season 8 as well. He is human and can mistakenly break his own canon with out realizing it until a fan points it out. If he's unable to justify it then he will admit that he forgot about that aspect of the show. I've never seen any quotes from Joss stating that Spike loved Buffy while he was a vampire but if he does then I believe he broke is own canon. I would have no problem if he simply said that Spike was obsessed with Buffy and he believed that obsession was love BUT Spike can not truly love as a vampire because he lacks a soul. (hello run on sentence) And yes I believe the phrasing is significant.

Just so you all know I like Spike and I eventually accepted season 6 Spuffy because it showed how far Buffy had fallen. I'm not entirely sure about season 7 Spike but my first reaction is annoyance but I hope he grows on me.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'll get back to this at a later date but the absence of a conscience is a hallmark of a person with anti-social personality disorder. In fact a human can not make a real emotional connection with out a conscience. Thats just simple fact.

I don't have to read anymore of your arguments because of this simple, silly, comment.

The greatest scholars in a variety of fields, from scientific, psychological, physical, metaphysical and even numerical across the globe and across time have failed to pin point exactly what the conscience is, what it controls what it does but you've obviously surpassed all these people because you have worked it out. You are able to break it down now and just say it is 'simple fact'.

We here at Buffy Boards should be honoured to have you here.

I have another question that needs answering. What is the point of our existence?

If you could break that down to a 'simple fact' for me then I would be ever so greatful.

Ohhh and after that, I have a question about 'God' too.

Thanks

 

[Kana]

Hehe, yes well, absolutely. Vampirism in the verse to me is as complex as very nature of human beings. In a vain attempt to simplify things I summerised that vampires are, well, 'different' from human. Much like in the case of Olaf, when a person is turned into the 'evil' thing they adopt the traits of that species however because a vampire is so close to it's former species it means that they will invariably retain many of the feelings and complexes they had when human.

This is possibly one of the most frightening about vampires is how closely they resemble human beings. Buffy's need to seperate the demon from the soul is so that she isn't incapacitated by paradox of killing something almost totally inhuman that can resemble their former species so closely.

I have to say that Joss isn't totally clear on what the soul is. People have talked about the lack of soul determining a creatures free will. But this doesn't seem to fit with Harmony or Spike. Perhaps vampire are merely "the way they are" and demonologists, WC etc even vampires themselves try to figure out the truth of their nature. This makes Buffy's job about pragmatism. Kill them, lest they kill us, because they are more than likely to do that. They may leave us alone but would you really want to find out?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

OK, I have always believed that if a Vampire can feel one human emotion then they can feel them all and we have evidence of them feeling all sorts through out the 2 shows.

As for the Angel and love as a Vampire, he is only capable of saying from his own experience.

Angelus was incapable of love BUT isn't that possibly because he is basing on Liam and his obvious inability to love.

I think we have had enough evidence that Vampires can love and IF Joss Whedon, the creator of the whole verse, allows/writes a story where a Vampire without a soul can love then he isn't 'changing' his canon, on the contrary he is evolving it, growing along with it.

 

[Hello Cutie]

I think I said something similar to this before, but I'm going to re-iterate it, as its in agreement with BotD. Emotions may or may not be to do with a concience, but a vampire is a demon that takes over the body's previous owner's thoughts, memories, life etc... so it makes sense it could take on it's feelings, in which case the vampire could experience love, lust, happiness, anger, joy, you name it, they can feel it.
If Angelus couldn't love, that was because the body he took on (Liam's) couldn't love, whereas William was full of love etc, so Spike took that on when he became a vampire in that body. I mean it's a simple concept and although it might not necessarily be true, to me it makes sense- if a vampire can take on all the other aspects of the person, why not the feelings?

 

[Blondie Bear]

I agree with you guys on principle but have one question about your theory. If Liam "couldn't love," then why could Angel? You could argue that it's because he's grown since he got his soul back, but that, then, begs the question of why, when he lost his soul again, Angelus had no human feeling. If the demon has all the memories and feelings of the human (which Angel's soul is, even if his body no longer is), wouldn't that make him more like Spike? Instead, he's the same monster he always was; Angelus hasn't grown at all.

 

[Hello Cutie]

Ahh good point BB! I was thinking about that just after I posted actually... and I don't really have an answer right now, apart from 'Ask Joss! It's his programme!'. 🙂 lol.

Maybe it's because even though he has a soul, he's not a human. The demon is still there, and it's still inhabiting the body that was Liam's. So the demon has its habits ingrained into it, so while it knows what Angel has been upto, memory-wise, Angelus isn't inhabiting Angel's body (because Angel is a vampire), it's inhabiting Liam's.

Does that make sense?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Ahh good point BB! I was thinking about that just after I posted actually... and I don't really have an answer right now, apart from 'Ask Joss! It's his programme!'. 🙂 lol.

Maybe it's because even though he has a soul, he's not a human. The demon is still there, and it's still inhabiting the body that was Liam's. So the demon has its habits ingrained into it, so while it knows what Angel has been upto, memory-wise, Angelus isn't inhabiting Angel's body (because Angel is a vampire), it's inhabiting Liam's.

Does that make sense?

Love, in Angels case, comes from the many life times of experience including his 100 years of having a soul.

Liam couldn't love because that was not his nature, Angelus couldn't because of Liams nature however Angel isn't either Angelus or Liam but a combination of both with an ability to feel remorse over what he had done.

Angel can love because the other emotions he felt due to Angelus were so intense they allowed him to feel everything.

I mean, I am sure guilt wasn't high on Liams list of emotions yet Angelus feels it.

 

[Hello Cutie]

Well, I was half right... I think between myself and BotD, we've reached some kind of plausible theory.

What I was getting at was that Angelus feels what Liam feels, but doesn't feel all of what Angel does.. but I'm obviously not very succinct with my explanations... thanks for doing it for me! [And making it better, obviously.. *rolls eyes*]

I'd like to say it was 'simple fact', but I don't want to get shouted at! 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Well, I was half right... I think between myself and BotD, we've reached some kind of plausible theory.

What I was getting at was that Angelus feels what Liam feels, but doesn't feel all of what Angel does.. but I'm obviously not very succinct with my explanations... thanks for doing it for me!

Yup, between us we're pretty comfortable with that🙂

[And making it better, obviously.. *rolls eyes*]

I'd like to say it was 'simple fact', but I don't want to get shouted at! 🙂

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You learn fast little one

 

[PhenixRising]

I don't have to read anymore of your arguments because of this simple, silly, comment.

The greatest scholars in a variety of fields, from scientific, psychological, physical, metaphysical and even numerical across the globe and across time have failed to pin point exactly what the conscience is, what it controls what it does but you've obviously surpassed all these people because you have worked it out. You are able to break it down now and just say it is 'simple fact'.

We here at Buffy Boards should be honoured to have you here.

I have another question that needs answering. What is the point of our existence?

If you could break that down to a 'simple fact' for me then I would be ever so greatful.

Ohhh and after that, I have a question about 'God' too.

Thanks

My apologies for using simple in that phrase but it is understood that a person with out a conscious is unable to or has great difficultly making a human connection. If you know nothing of the disorder then thats fine and I had a feeling a smart-aleck would bring up the great mind approach. I'm glad that you did not disappoint me. I've always been interested in psychology and I have a greater interest in ASP because of a family history.

Tell me if this sounds like Spike. Sociopaths are often characterized as people with a greater sense of self, exaggerated sexuality, lack of impulse control, satisfaction through violent behavior, manipulative, total disregard of societal rules, failure to empathize with victims, low opinion of the opposite sex, blames others for mistakes, highly charismatic (explains how he kills all those girls in season 7), and yes the inability to feel love. Also consistent failure to repay debts.

A conscious or moral center is essential in understanding another person. With out a moral center you will never know if your actions are truly wrong because you can not fully accept responsibility. You are also unable to empathize with a person because their emotions are foreign to you. Its not a matter of saying the words. Anyone can say the right words to sooth someone in pain but the inability to understand those emotions makes every word hollow. It is my opinion but love is impossible with out the ability to truly sympathize and empathize.

Also, Joss brought Warren back to life in season 8 even though we know he is dead since the First Evil takes his form in season 7. Joss admitted that he simply forgot that the First Evil could only take the form of a dead person. Its a gross oversight but he is human. Its not impossible that he wanted to create an arc for Spike and in doing so he made a few revisions to his own canon. I know that I am not the only person who thinks that he broke the rules with Spike. I'm also not looking to roll around in the mud with anyone that disagrees with what I'm saying.

 

[Kana]

I agree with you guys on principle but have one question about your theory. If Liam "couldn't love," then why could Angel? You could argue that it's because he's grown since he got his soul back, but that, then, begs the question of why, when he lost his soul again, Angelus had no human feeling. If the demon has all the memories and feelings of the human (which Angel's soul is, even if his body no longer is), wouldn't that make him more like Spike? Instead, he's the same monster he always was; Angelus hasn't grown at all.

I don't think Liam was incapable of love. Angel once said, he never found some interesting or exciting. I suppose he thought he found that in Darla.

I actually think Angel(us) is suffering from some kind of disassociative personality disorder. Everyone responds to things differently. Vampirism fragmented Liam's persona into it's principle parts, the awkwardness, inner rage, heroism etc. Liam was capable of love. He seemed to dote on his little sister and clearly wanted his father to love and approve of him.

 

[PhenixRising]

Bored of the Dead agrees: You seem to be mixing up conscience and concious.

Yea you're right. I changed it back to conscious b/c you jumped on my sh*t for writing conscience. I probably should have used google to pick the right word. If I continue to post on here you'll see that I switch words a lot. You'd never believe that I typically wrote insightful A quality papers in college. My second post used the correct word. IMO, morality/emotions are rooted in that word. Morality would be judged by societal standards. I consider morality different from a moral code. As you can tell I don't exactly read scholarly works on the subject. If I'm going to read something in the academic world it'll be based in Inta, History, or Econ.

So as I've already stated Spike the vampire can not 'feel' an emotional attachment that we humans would consider love because he has no conscience. Both Darla and Angel back up this claim. You would need a conscience or moral and emotional core to understand the nature of love to feel it. Spike could easily be obsessive enough to get a soul to prove something but I'd think that that would have an even more dramatic effect on his approach to Buffy in season 7.

You've pieced together a decent theory but I don't believe it can counteract the statements of Darla and Angel. I'll give it another read tomorrow. Sometimes my writing style makes me seem more aggressive than I really am.

 

[paisley]

Well. I think he was more human than the others as he sought to get a soul because he loved Buffy. You would think that something evil would not be able to seek something pure like a soul or love someone. he always said to buffy that he didnt expect anything from her but wanted her to know that he loved her truley. Sure he did some bad things, but maybe because of the humanity he felt in himself he sought to destory it? hmmm

 

[Blodeuedd]

When Spike imprisons both Drusilla and Buffy, doesn't Drusilla say that "we can love very well but not always wisely"? or something to that effect

 

[Relic]

I think Spike is not an exception so much as an example of a quiet strength.

The thing sometimes missed, but not allways, is that both spike and William loved Buffy. There are two different creatures here sharing the same emotion.

I have yet to watch season 6 &7 but from spoilers I'd guess when Spike inherited Williams body, he got a bit of his self doubt with it. When it came to slayers Spike was always trying to prove something, like he's making up for Williams self doubt. He loose's himself in the abject slaughter, not think but be a force of nature. A predator. Predators are not always wicked, they can in effect be trainable.

Look at what happens when spike and willow have their moment in season 4...he plans on eating her but gives her a choice of weather he'll raise her or not. Angelus would have raised her just to torment Buffy. look at season five with the "you're beneath me comment" both sides of spike hurt over it.

I've always imagined Spike wicked as almost how cows must view us as wicked. It's his nature and allows him to exist.

When presented by way of chip[ with alternatives he 'attempted' suicide or a call for help due to the unnaturalness of it all. Thats not unlike an animal would gnawing off it's own leg to escape a trap.

He tries his hand at playing a good guy, then traitor to free himself, and ultimately changes his identity entirely, falls in love and seeks out a soul!

With Angelus, the soul is not a reward but a punishment...a weakness. His demon personality seems by evidence very different from Spike, just as William and Angel are very different...at least at first.

two very different vampires with two very different paths as far as the prior human soul of the hybrid is concerned; one run to it the other from it.

Personality is not the exception to the rule so much as the definition of the outcome. I'd say Angelus is more of the exception than Spike or any other noted vampire.

Spike as a demon might have not been so wicked as much as passonate...a trait he shared with William. Angelus is a fiend of the worst kind while Angel was originally a diseased lay-about slacker. I think he completely overpowered Angels latent/dormant personality

Perhaps the sum of the finished product in a hybrid is in some ways a byproduct of both sides? As long as they both have a value and one doesn't cancel the other out, that is.

Drew's insanity seemed to suggest as much from human to vampire, while Williams love of Buffy based off of spikes experience seems to suggest so from vampire to human.

Even Angelus loved Buffy, just like Angel...as much as a he could in his own demented stalker kinda way.

If they share memories then they share at least something that can partly influence behavior, we learn from others about ourselves sometimes; and sometimes teach as well as learn to/from the person influencing us and seeing our reactions.

just my blatherings....
(plus how I view the hybrid and the whole soul thingy.)

 

[atticus]

Ok, this is my opinion on spike's humanity. I think Spike is unique, and that it is mainly down to the chip.
William was a shy, reserved man. Then a demon set up shop in his body. I think it is a case of two personalities in one body. The demon, see's the weakness of the host body, and try's to undo it, becoming a dangerous and vicious killer. It still retains aspects of the personality of William, but warps those personality traits. Such as his romantic nature. His love of Cecily, becomes a love of Drusilla, Cecily's opposite, a free spirit, not bogged down by social class or values, she does what she wants to do. The demon inside of Spike loves those darker, more evil aspects.
When the chip is inserted, the demon's purpose is no longer there, to kill and to sire others, it can't do this, so it almost becomes dormant, allowing sides of Williams personality to take over, Such as his love of the girl, he could never have, in this case Buffy. When an opportunity arises to do evil or remove the chip, the demon forces it's way back, and takes control.
When Spike discovers he can harm Buffy, i think the demon see's that William has chosen to love someone similar to Dru. It thinks that she came back wrong, and that there is darkness in her, because of the way she behaves that season. It doesn't want to kill her, it want's to love her, the way it loved Dru.
The William side of him loves the way Buffy was, The demon side loves the way Buffy is now, and both traits still exist in Buffy, so there is no need to change her, so both personalities are on the same level. Then Buffy tries to leave, and become the person she was, so the demon lashes out and tries to tempt her back onto the darker path. It hurts her, try's to rape her, but It can't change her back because she won't let it, she fights it off. William then witnesses what it has done, and is ashamed of it.
I think this is the point where the demon side is confused. The demon loves a girl that no longer exists. Because of the chip,it can no longer, hurt or kill anyone. So what does it do, it can try and turn Buffy into a vampire, that is the only way, she might love it, but it knows that it won't win. She has to many people on her side, that it can't hurt, but can hurt it, so it decides to step back "Bitch is going to see a change", and it allows William to take over. William loves her dearly and knows the only chance he has, if he has a soul.
That's the way, i see it.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I was thinking. When Angelus got his soul his personality went through a major shift, sadist to distraught, to mean and moody, back to distraught and finally champion. But Spike's personality went guilty for a few months then back to badass. And I was thinking, is this because even before he got his soul he was more human then other vampires. He killed his mother, not for the usual reason a vampire kills their family but because he thought it would make her well. He really regretted staking her. He was in an actual committed relationship, on his side. Going by Angelus's statements in Destiny doesn't seem like that's common. He wasn't interested in being like Angelus, with a vision. He just wantd day by day life. Maybe, his personality remained the same because he was more human then other vampires. Which would make him more evil in a way, since he'd be able to have more fun with that when he killed them.

Spike is somewhat of an anomaly in the vampire world. When he was "evil" and souless, he still exhibited strong human personality traits, vulnerbilities, and emotions. We can see his ability to love with Drusilla. Even though, according to some, vampires without souls cannot love. And yes, the duality of Angel/Angelus is quite different then that of No-soul and ensouled Spike.