Is there a double standard between Willow and Buffy's sexuality? (spoilers for s8)

[Blaze]

I was re-reading two threads recently, the one about Willow's sexuality and the one concerning Buffy's affair with Satsu. I sort of notice that many believe that Willow is bisexual, even though she identifies as a lesbian, while many believe that Buffy is straight. Now yes, Buffy is self identified as straight but she clearly liked what she had with Satsu.

So my question, is there a double standard between the two. This question is manly aimed at those who believe that Willow is bisexual but Buffy straight, or that Buffy is bisexual and Willow a lesbian, because in both of those cases it seem like the reasoning might create a double standard. So I'm curious, if you think this way, why?

For those who think Buffy is straight and Willow is a lesbian, or that both are bisexual, or that they shouldn't be labelled, I'm curious to hear your input also!

To be honest, I had never even thought about this myself, I'll have to think about it and come back to discuss later.

 

[Kean]

I think sexuality is fluid and constantly revealing itself to each individual but we live in a world where who you are has to fit in a box with a clearly defined label that everyone can understand. I also think we should take each character at their word. Willow self-identifies as a gay woman. Buffy self identifies as a straight woman. Neither character has ever identified as Bisexual, I have no idea why we should place that label on them.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

They're both just people.

 

[thetopher]

It's all to do with 'ships.

A lot of fans who love Willow love her with Tara. To them they're meant to be (which, don't get me wrong, is sweet an' all), hence Willow is a lesbian.

A lot of Buffy fans like her with Angel or Spike (or even Riley), therefore she is straight and that will never change, and the thing with Satsu wasn't real.

To people who like the characters separate from their relationships its a bit more complicated. I, for one, love Willow with Oz or Tara, therefore I think she's bisexual (but leaning heavily towards the girl side of things).
I also think Buffy was, on some level, attracted to Faith in S3, therefore I think of Buffy as bi well before Satsu came along. (but obviously leaning towards guys- most bisexuals favour one over the other.)

Also there's the whole 'we can't have bisexuallty on the show', that's only reserved for predatory femalr characters, or one-episode gimmicks. 🙄

 

[Lyri]

I'm not one for assigning labels to people, but at the same time, if someone has assigned a label to themselves, who the hell am I to tell them they're wrong?

Willow self-identifies as gay, as a lesbian, and I think that's really the end of discussion on the matter.

Same goes for Buffy. She identifies as straight, but isn't afraid to go after a woman if she's attracted to said woman.

It honestly confuses me as to why people argue so much.

 

[Kean]

It's all to do with 'ships.

A lot of fans who love Willow love her with Tara. To them they're meant to be (which, don't get me wrong, is sweet an' all), hence Willow is a lesbian.

A lot of Buffy fans like her with Angel or Spike (or even Riley), therefore she is straight and that will never change, and the thing with Satsu wasn't real.

I don't agree with this at all. Next to Spike, Willow is my most loathed character. I have zero investment in her. The only time I did like her was in S1-3 when she was with Oz and I still say she is gay and that Tara was the love of her life because she has told us that.

Same goes with Buffy, I say she's straight because she does. I actually like what she had with Satsu, I thought it was sweet. I say she loves Angel the best because she describes him as the love of her life.

Canon and my own personal views on sexuality shape my opinion, not ship allegiance.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

I don't agree with this at all. Next to Spike, Willow is my most loathed character. I have zero investment in her. The only time I did like her was in S1-3 when she was with Oz and I still say she is gay and that Tara was the love of her life because she has told us that.

Same goes with Buffy, I say she's straight because she does. I actually like what she had with Satsu, I thought it was sweet. I say she loves Angel the best because she describes him as the love of her life.

Canon and my own personal views on sexuality shape my opinion, not ship allegiance.

I'm with you there (except on loathing Spike and Willow) BUT you can't deny there are those for whom the 'ship is the be all and end all.

 

[brinkster130]

I agree with what Kean said, sexuality is fluid and can't necessarily be clearly defined so arguing over a characters sexual orientation seems silly to me. One relationship or fling doesn't define ones sexuality, things happen, people fall in love or lust....sometimes its just about the attraction.

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION] brings up a fair point, sometimes when people are arguing about a characters sexual orientation it does eventually go back to that persons ship preferences and who they believe the best match is for said character. Not everyone judges like this, but I've seen that type of reasoning used here before; especially when it comes to Buffy and Satsu.

Personally, I've never felt that other relationships or flings take away meaning from previous (or future) relationships. Just because Willow fell in love with Tara doesn't mean she loved Oz any less or that their relationship was somehow less meaningful. Both happened, both were huge for her. Same thing with Buffy and her fling with Satsu.

 

[Kean]

I'm with you there (except on loathing Spike and Willow) BUT you can't deny there are those for whom the 'ship is the be all and end all.

I should have clarified myself a bit better, I don't deny that shipping is a factor for some people on this matter, I was more objecting to the implication that it was the only thing that factored into peoples' opinions.

Sorry for the confusion 🙂

 

[Still a Scoobie]

Hey no, I get what you meant, you just seemed to take thetopher's comment a bit personally, that's all. I'm sure you didn't but it just read that way from here.

 

[thetopher]

People might be right about Willow...she does describe herself as gay multiple times, but I still believe what she had with Oz was very real...he was her first love, if not her true love.

but for the most part when people comment on the whole Buffy is straight thing, somewhere behind it there's a 'ship involved.

And to say Buffy's straight because she describes Angel as the love of her life...means that you believe that she really never loved anybody else, which is patently false. She loved Riley and Spike in different ways. If you thought that she loved Angel the most thats fine.
To dismiss other ships, or potential ships out of hand is...well, you're kind of proving my point.

 

[Blaze]

People might be right about Willow...she does describe herself as gay multiple times, but I still believe what she had with Oz was very real...he was her first love, if not her true love.

but for the most part when people comment on the whole Buffy is straight thing, somewhere behind it there's a 'ship involved.

And to say Buffy's straight because she describes Angel as the love of her life...means that you believe that she really never loved anybody else, which is patently false. She loved Riley and Spike in different ways. If you thought that she loved Angel the most thats fine.
To dismiss other ships, or potential ships out of hand is...well, you're kind of proving my point.

Not that I especially disagree with you, but that's my issue with this topic. Both Buffy and Willow identify to a specific sexuality, and there's still a lot of arguing that those sexuality are not their real ones. I know it's just a TV show, but in real life would anyone ever go to someone and say: "no I don't think you're a real lesbian" or "no I don't think you're straight". That just seems silly and insulting to me.
On a side note I also don't think that Willow being a lesbian diminishes what she had with Oz.

That being said, I also think that sexuality is fluid, I also think that we should treat people as just human beings without the whole labels things, but the points of this thread is that people do put labels. In putting those labels, is there some sort of hypocrisy going on depending on the situation?

You bring a fair point, maybe shipping does have something to do with that hypocrisy. At least you're being consistent with your views, I've seen people be very categorical in saying that Willow is bi but that Buffy is not and could never be.

 

[Lyri]

People might be right about Willow...she does describe herself as gay multiple times, but I still believe what she had with Oz was very real...he was her first love, if not her true love.

But that does not mean that she isn't gay.

The majority of people in the real world who identify as gay or lesbian - including one of my best friends - first have a relationship with a member of the opposite sex, and a lot of the time, those relationships are deep and meaningful and they genuinely believe that they were in love and are not afraid to admit that they were in love.

But people grow, mature, they meet new people, gain new experiences and fall in love with different people and come to the realization that they are gay. But that doesn't negate the first relationship they had. They just come to the realization that they are more comfortable and are being more true to themselves when they are in a same sex realtionship.

I have to wonder if you would insist to someone in the real world who identifies as gay, but also had a deep and meaningful relationship with a member of the opposite sex, that, no, in fact, they're bi.

 

[thetopher]

I see your point. I'm hesitant to disagree with the characters' assssment of their own sexuality, especially as a guy doing it.
If Willow says she's gay, who am I to argue, I don't know. I don't want to come off as homophobic or whatever.
And no, I've had this happen in the real world. If somebody says their gay I take them at their word. I would never say 'well, I think your wrong.' That's rude, arrogant presumption.
However, we are talking about a television character here, and there are other factors to consider, as in the 'no bisexuals' tv rule...that's all I'm saying.
Also Buffy never states flat-out that she's straight (true she gets freaked when Willow says that she's attracted to Tara, but that might be because its Willow, her best friend saying it, nothing else), therefore I feel more comfortable in asserting that she might be bisexual.
I'm at least open to the possibility, and I still find value in seeing her relationships with Angel and Riley and even Spike. I don't dismiss any of them as 'not real.' (as much as I'd like to with some of them...)
I don't see why Satsu should be treated any differently, just because she's a woman and it doesn't fit somebodies view of Buffy the character.
And that's what people do if they mantain that Buffy is straight, its like saying 'Of course Buffy could fall in love a corpse animated by a demon...but god forbid she falls for a girl.' 😛

 

[Blaze]

I see yor point. I'm hesitant to disagree with the characters' assssment of their own sexuality, especially as a guy doing it.
If Willow says she's gay, who am I to argue, I don't know. I don't want to come off as homophobic or whatever.

I don't think it comes off as homophobic, and I do see your point, which is exactly why I made this topic. Part of it came from me always sort of assuming that Buffy was attracted to girls also. Who knows if she could ever fall in love with a woman, but I do think it's important to acknowledge her affair with Satsu as well as Willow's relationship with Oz. But in the end, is it fair to say that either of them is anything but what they say they are? Or is it okay to say that one is bi but not the other?

Regarding Buffy, I thought she made it pretty clear to Satsu that she didn't swing that way, but I might be wrong since I haven't read the comics in a while.

 

[thetopher]

It's all about seeing how the characters see themselves. In S4 we see Willow slowly fall for Tara, through their shared interest in magic they fall in love. She struggles with her new feelings and when Oz come back we see Willow make the choice...to be with Tara. I think that makes it easier to say 'Willow's been gay this whole time', even when we know she's had huge crushes on Xander and Giles.
But then again, there was never really a hint that Willow found Buffy attractive, which is odd. From the first moment Buffy turned up to be Willow's friend she was cool, gorgeous, friendly and out-going, singled Willow out to be her friend...and nothing, not even a hint, not ever. That always puzzled me.

Another thing I want to make clear, I'm not trying to elevate what Buffy had with Satsu, it was pretty much a fling, and okay maybe it happened just because Buffy was lonely. But there was an attraction that Buffy chose to act upon, and she enjoyed it enough to repeat it. She also tells Satsu that it one of the best nights of her life. Even if she just meant physically, its still significant.

Secondly, I believe there is precidence here, from Buffy's relationship with Faith in S3, I tend to believe that, character-wise, if Angel hadn't come back then Buffy and Faith could've had something. (leaving aside the fact that this was the WB), judging from the chemistry we see on screen between the characters this is entirely possible.

I am big enough to say that, in this, I am wearing 'shipping goggles', at least a little bit. (Although Faith's attraction to Buffy is almost damn near canon, according to the script writers...)

 

[Lyri]

But then again, there was never really a hint that Willow found Buffy attractive, which is odd. From the first moment Buffy turned up to be Willow's friend she was cool, gorgeous, friendly and out-going, singled Willow out to be her friend...and nothing, not even a hint, not ever. That always puzzled me.

I'm not attracted to Spike - does that make me a lesbian?

Tara's not attracted to Buffy, either, does that mean she's straight?

The fact that Willow isn't attracted to Buffy does not define her sexuality.

I'm not attracted to every man I meet, just like lesbians aren't attracted to every woman they meet and gay men aren't attracted to every man they meet. I don't understand why being attracted to Buffy should be a contributing factor to Willow's sexuality. Buffy just apparently isn't Willow's type.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah shipping isn't a factor in a characters sexuality. It's just incorrect information.

The fact that Willow once had a relationship with a man doesn't mean she's bi, she's a lesbian. She is attracted to women and wants to date Women, she doesn't want to date both men and women. She had that very conversation with Tara in season 5.

Same goes for Buffy, I can't remember now but does she talk about being attracted to Satsu? She just enjoyed sex with Satsu as far as I remember, she wasn't attracted to her becasue she was a women.

Someone doing something one time does not make them fit into a label, even doing it more then once doesn't make you fit the label, which is why labels don't work, people are more complex then a label can cover.

If you once had blonde hair and dye it black you're not still referred to as blonde, and you're not referred to as a bi-hairist becasue you've chosen to try more then one thing.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah shipping isn't a factor in a characters sexuality. It's just incorrect information.

The fact that Willow once had a relationship with a man doesn't mean she's bi, she's a lesbian. She is attracted to women and wants to date Women, she doesn't want to date both men and women. She had that very conversation with Tara in season 5.

Same goes for Buffy, I can't remember now but does she talk about being attracted to Satsu? She just enjoyed sex with Satsu as far as I remember, she wasn't attracted to her becasue she was a women.

Someone doing something one time does not make them fit into a label, even doing it more then once doesn't make you fit the label, which is why labels don't work, people are more complex then a label can cover.

If you once had blonde hair and dye it black you're not still referred to as blonde, and you're not referred to as a bi-hairist becasue you've chosen to try more then one thing.

So, let me get this straight, Willow is gay, even though she had a significant relationship with a man, both emotionally and physically.
But Buffy is straight and her time with Satsu doesn't change anything? She slept with Satsu why? Because she was, on some level attracted to her- but that has nothing to do with her being a woman?
I'm sorry, there's a double standard.
Look, I've already said I'm fine with the whole Willow is gay because the character says she is. I'm not obsessed with labels.
All I'm saying is that Buffy could be bisexual, she slept with a woman, more than once, and found it physically and emotionally rewarding. She never says that she doesn't find Satsu attractive, she just says she isn't in love with her. And Buffy, being Buffy, realises that she can't use Satsu like that and ends things.

---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

I'm not attracted to Spike - does that make me a lesbian?

Tara's not attracted to Buffy, either, does that mean she's straight?

The fact that Willow isn't attracted to Buffy does not define her sexuality.

I'm not attracted to every man I meet, just like lesbians aren't attracted to every woman they meet and gay men aren't attracted to every man they meet. I don't understand why being attracted to Buffy should be a contributing factor to Willow's sexuality. Buffy just apparently isn't Willow's type.

And, okay, so the point I was trying to make... Of course everybody has a type. All I was saying is that there weren't that many signs pointing to Willow's 'true' sexuality, that's all.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]

Buffy is self identified as straight

Where does Buffy identify herself as straight? Please provide a quote. On the contrary, to me this looks like something a person in a closet would say:

Satsu: But you're not gay.
Buffy: Not so you'd notice.