Is there a double standard between Willow and Buffy's sexuality? (spoilers for s8)

[thetopher]

One other point, I know a lot of Bangels were delighted that SMG expressed a preference for the Buffy and Angel romance, right down to the kissing.
SMG has also voiced her delight/approval to Buffy's tryst with Satsu in the comics. She seemed surprised, yes but also very pleased. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]


Where does Buffy identify herself as straight? Please provide a quote. On the contrary, to me this looks like something a person in a closet would say:

I corrected myself later on in the thread, I thought that she did in the comics but hadn't read them in a while. My bad.

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

Also, I didn't mean to make this thread for people to debate their sexual orientation, I didn't realize it'd be so controversial, my interest was more concerning if some rules apply to one character but not the other. Like if they both state their sexuality why would we only take Buffy's word and not Willow's or vice versa. This is clearly not the case as I had not realized that Buffy never stated her sexuality (I thought she said she was straight in the comics, which she never did).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

So, let me get this straight, Willow is gay, even though she had a significant relationship with a man, both emotionally and physically.

Yes.

But Buffy is straight and her time with Satsu doesn't change anything? She slept with Satsu why? Because she was, on some level attracted to her- but that has nothing to do with her being a woman?

So you think everyone thats ever had any kind of sexual intercourse with a person of the same sex automatically goes into the bisexual catagory, even if they never do it again and don't show an actual ongoing attraction to both sexes?
I'm pretty sure the bisexual community would be bumped up percentage wise a lot more than is is. People experiment growing up, experimenting doesn't move you into a catagory.

All I'm saying is that Buffy could be bisexual, she slept with a woman, more than once, and found it physically and emotionally rewarding.

That's true but we know from the writers and what Buffy said that the whole thing seems to be a one off period of experimentation, that is not the same thing as Buffy being bisexual, it's Buffy being curious.

 

[Kean]

And to say Buffy's straight because she describes Angel as the love of her life...means that you believe that she really never loved anybody else, which is patently false.

I didn't say anything resembling that. You are inferring an awful lot here. You are placing your own understanding of the term "love of my life" on what I said. When I say it, I mean that she loved him the most.

She loved Riley and Spike in different ways. If you thought that she loved Angel the most thats fine.

I've never said anything differently on the matter.

To dismiss other ships, or potential ships out of hand is...well, you're kind of proving my point.

Again, I didn't do that. Not even close.

 

[thetopher]

Yes.


So you think everyone thats ever had any kind of sexual intercourse with a person of the same sex automatically goes into the bisexual catagory, even if they never do it again and don't show an actual ongoing attraction to both sexes?
I'm pretty sure the bisexual community would be bumped up percentage wise a lot more than is is. People experiment growing up, experimenting doesn't move you into a catagory.


That's true but we know from the writers and what Buffy said that the whole thing seems to be a one off period of experimentation, that is not the same thing as Buffy being bisexual, it's Buffy being curious.

No writer has ever said that this was a 'one-off', you're inferring that. They have stated that Buffy was in a lonely place and was finding comfort with somebody that was in love with her.
And again, I'm saying that Buffy could be bisexual, not is, because she has never said cotagorically that she is straight. Which seems to be your arguement when it comes to Willow. That Willow is gay because she says she is.
If anybody can find me a quote anywhere where Buffy says that she's straight (as they all keep insisting) I'll be very surprised.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

No writer has ever said that this was a 'one-off', you're inferring that. They have stated that Buffy was in a lonely place and was finding comfort with somebody that was in love with her.
And again, I'm saying that Buffy could be bisexual, not is, because she has never said cotagorically that she is straight. Which seems to be your arguement when it comes to Willow. That Willow is gay because she says she is.

"We’re not going to make her gay, nor are we going to take the next 50 issues explaining that she’s not. She’s young and experimenting, and did I mention open-minded?”
...
"I wouldn’t even call it a phase"
- Joss Whedon

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/books/05buffy.html?_r=0

 

[thetopher]

"Open-minded?"= "Bi-sexual?" imo.

Joss says that she's not gay. I agree with Joss in that.

'not a phase' isn't the same as 'will never ever happen again' or even 'one-off'. You're reaching,

 

[Black Eye Guy]

"Open-minded?"= "Bi-sexual?" imo.

Joss says that she's not gay. I agree with Joss in that.

'not a phase' isn't the same as 'will never ever happen again' or even 'one-off'. You're reaching,

Dude, recheck your facts. You're the one reaching, lol. Joss says it's not even a phase, it's just something that happened(in the full article), that is crystal clear what that means.

If I'm inferring the answer or reaching, then how is thinking Buffy is Bi becasue she never says the words "I'm straight" not inferring and reaching?

I also wouldn't think open-minded is bisexual, bisexual is liking both males and females, Liking as is thinking you could end up in a relationship with either sex. That was never the case with Buffy, she was open-minded becasue she was able to have a no strings attached sexual relationship with a girl and it didn't have to mean she was bisexual, or gay.

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION], I'm curious, if you agree that Willow is gay but say Buffy is bisexual, what is the difference between one being gay and the other bisexual, is it simply the fact that Willow is a self-proclaimed lesbian and Buffy is not self-proclaimed straight?

I know most are disagreeing with you, but I also believe that Buffy was always attracted to girls to some extent (Faith), I'm just trying to understand why it would be okay to call her bisexual.

 

[Lyri]

I don't understand why we need to hear/see Buffy say the words 'I'm straight' to believe that she's straight, but Willow has said the words 'I'm a lesbian/gay now/I don't want to date a guy' repeatedly and yet we're still arguing her sexuality.

Isn't that a double standard?

To be perfectly honest, I see Buffy as being exactly like myself. Technically, I don't want a relationship of any kind - I'm far too selfish of a person to think about sharing my life with someone. But I do identify as straight. I'm a straight woman - who wouldn't say no if the right woman came along. I never say never when it comes to that kind of thing, but there is maybe only four or five women (both celebrities and IRL) who I've been attracted to in the same degree that I'm attracted to a man and none that I've ever wanted to pursue a relationship with. If I ever was to settle down (which is doubtful) I do see myself being with a man for the long haul - but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a woman.

That's kind of how I see Buffy - she is attracted to men, she sees herself as straight first and foremost, but she wouldn't say no to the right woman.

 

[Blaze]

I don't understand why we need to hear/see Buffy say the words 'I'm straight' to believe that she's straight, but Willow has said the words 'I'm a lesbian/gay now/I don't want to date a guy' repeatedly and yet we're still arguing her sexuality.

Isn't that a double standard?

Couldn't rep you but yes, exactly!

 

[thetopher]

Dude, recheck your facts. You're the one reaching, lol. Joss says it's not even a phase, it's just something that happened(in the full article), that is crystal clear what that means.

If I'm inferring the answer or reaching, then how is thinking Buffy is Bi becasue she never says the words "I'm straight" not inferring and reaching?

I also wouldn't think open-minded is bisexual, bisexual is liking both males and females, Liking as is thinking you could end up in a relationship with either sex. That was never the case with Buffy, she was open-minded becasue she was able to have a no strings attached sexual relationship with a girl and it didn't have to mean she was bisexual, or gay.

Okay, from the top: I'm not saying that Buffy is definitly bisexual. I'm just open to the possibiliy because she slept with a girl. (And imo attracted to a girl...) That, to me, seems like common sense- it is no way reaching. When somebody says 'i'm openminded' when it comes to sex that its possible that they're open to sleeping with both men and women, under certain circumstances. When you're saying 'but that's not bisexuality' I think you're talking semantics.
However, it is others on this thread who seem to have a problem and want to label Buffy as 'straight', even though she's never said such a thing. Those same people use the arguement that Willow has said that she's gay to answer the question of her sexuality definitively. I'm not disagreeing with this assertion, as I've stated, if Willow says she's gay that's cool, whatever. End of discussion.

---------- Post added at 09:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION], I'm curious, if you agree that Willow is gay but say Buffy is bisexual, what is the difference between one being gay and the other bisexual, is it simply the fact that Willow is a self-proclaimed lesbian and Buffy is not self-proclaimed straight?

I know most are disagreeing with you, but I also believe that Buffy was always attracted to girls to some extent (Faith), I'm just trying to understand why it would be okay to call her bisexual.

I'm saying that its okay to say that Buffy could be bisexual...I just don't see the big deal. People are rushing to say 'no, she's not, she's straight!', and just brush over the fact that she enjoyed her time with Satsu, that she might've been somewhat attracted to Faith, say that she's openminded but not that openminded that she'd ever sleep with a girl again.
It just seems bizarre to me. 😕
The double standard is here. People take Willow's own assertions as fact (which, again, is fine) but then put words in Buffy's mouth. If Buffy says 'never again' to the idea of girls...then I guess she's straight. Until then I'm not gonna slap a label on her, like so many others are obviously eager to do. 🙁

 

[Lyri]

People take Willow's own assertions as fact

But they don't. They DON'T take Wilow at her word. You yourself in this very thread have said that you consider Willow to be bisexual, despite the many, many declarations to the contrary and I know at least five other people who have said the same thing.

So why? Why does Willow saying she's gay and repeatedly asserting her attraction to women mean nothing but Buffy is needed to be seen/heard saying it in massive letters?

I'm all for declaring Buffy to be bi-curious. I think she'll always be straight, but she finds women attractive, but not enough for an actual relationship. Plus, there's no way the writers are going to actually put an end to Bangel/Spiffy arguments, so it's moot.

 

[thetopher]

But they don't. They DON'T take Wilow at her word. You yourself in this very thread have said that you consider Willow to be bisexual, despite the many, many declarations to the contrary and I know at least five other people who have said the same thing.

So why? Why does Willow saying she's gay and repeatedly asserting her attraction to women mean nothing but Buffy is needed to be seen/heard saying it in massive letters?

I'm all for declaring Buffy to be bi-curious. I think she'll always be straight, but she finds women attractive, but not enough for an actual relationship. Plus, there's no way the writers are going to actually put an end to Bangel/Spiffy arguments, so it's moot.

Okay, I said the thing about Willow once, in my first post. I then went on to correct myself, after hearing other, more considered, opinions and agree that if Willow says she's gay I don't have a problem with it.
I have said this several times now. I accept what the character says. I never, ever said it meant nothing. I'm now getting tired of repeating this.
My arguement came from peoples assertions/assuptions about Buffy, not Willow. That they consider her straight even though she's never said so and also the dismissing of her relationship or whatever with Satsu.
Again I will repeat I'm not saying Buffy is bisexual (because it seems people are talking at cross-purposes about the definition..🙄.) only that she could be.
To me it's in the same realm as Angel/Spike, it has happened, it could happen again, but it ain't likely. 🙂
I respect pretty much all 'ships to one degree or another and it annoys me when somebody makes an assuption that 'oh, that didn't mean anything', I tend to think all Buffy's relationships mean something to her (hell, even Parker, which was a one-night thing, upset her quite a bit.)
This thread is about primarily about double-standards, not ships (although, hey, I'm partly to blame for bringing that up) but in my mind the two are linked when it comes to Buffy. Fans get most passionate about her relationships and defend them by attacking/ dismissing others...

And also are you saying Buffy will never move onto someone new because the fans won't like it? That would be very depressing imo. I don't care if Buffy's next love interest is boy or girl or demon- I'd just like something new.

 

[Blaze]

I'm saying that its okay to say that Buffy could be bisexual...I just don't see the big deal. People are rushing to say 'no, she's not, she's straight!', and just brush over the fact that she enjoyed her time with Satsu, that she might've been somewhat attracted to Faith, say that she's openminded but not that openminded that she'd ever sleep with a girl again.
It just seems bizarre to me. 😕
The double standard is here. People take Willow's own assertions as fact (which, again, is fine) but then put words in Buffy's mouth. If Buffy says 'never again' to the idea of girls...then I guess she's straight. Until then I'm not gonna slap a label on her, like so many others are obviously eager to do. 🙁

I agree with this assessment. When I made the topic I thought Buffy had said that she was straight, but if she hasn't I don't see the issue with saying she could be bisexual (without even affirming that she is). I do believe that she could sleep with a woman again. I also believe that actions speak louder than words, she's always seemed bicurious or open-minded (which to me does not equate bisexual at all, in fact there's a pretty big difference), but most of her actions have pointed towards her being straight, so I can see why people would say that she is straight but open-minded. I don't think anyone is really trying to diminish what she had with Satsu, at least I hope they're not because she's one of my favorite relationship Buffy has had with anyone.

Initially, my idea of a double standard was that people took one's word for it but not the other, but seeing this thread, yes I still think there's a double standard no matter which side you're on. I do think people still try to debate Willow's sexuality, and people definitely debate Buffy's sexuality.

 

[Kean]

I've reread this thread twice and nowhere in it did I find any poster dismissing or being disrespectful to another ship. Believing Buffy is ultimately straight or loves one of her former partners more than she did others isn't a disrespectful thing to say. It doesn't immediately imply disrespect to her other partners. Particularly in the case of Satsu, Buffy is very clear that she had some of the best nights of her life with her. You can believe that and still believe that Buffy ultimately feels a greater connection to someone else. It doesn't have to be either or. Neither relationship is a betrayal of the other.

I mean ultimately, isn't that what the whole world does? I know people get married for all kinds of reasons but in the most hopeful and ideal iteration of marriage, you are doing it for love, because you are with the person that means the most to you, the one. You have however many relationships in your life but if you decide to get married it is essentially saying "This is the person I love most. This is the love of my life."

I really don't think having someone like that in your life is disrespectful to anyone else you may have shared your life with.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------

I agree with this assessment. When I made the topic I thought Buffy had said that she was straight, but if she hasn't I don't see the issue with saying she could be bisexual (without even affirming that she is). I do believe that she could sleep with a woman again. I also believe that actions speak louder than words, she's always seemed bicurious or open-minded (which to me does not equate bisexual at all, in fact there's a pretty big difference), but most of her actions have pointed towards her being straight, so I can see why people would say that she is straight but open-minded. I don't think anyone is really trying to diminish what she had with Satsu, at least I hope they're not because she's one of my favorite relationship Buffy has had with anyone.

Initially, my idea of a double standard was that people took one's word for it but not the other, but seeing this thread, yes I still think there's a double standard no matter which side you're on. I do think people still try to debate Willow's sexuality, and people definitely debate Buffy's sexuality.

I agree completely. I made the same mistake in saying Buffy self-identified as straight in the same manner as Willow did. However, looking at canon and Buffy's decisions, I'd still call her ultimately straight. I think she is attracted to men and envisions herself with one but is also aware that she can connect and share something special with anyone, male or female.

I think one of the main problems in this thread is us trying to apply the same reasoning that worked for Willow to work with Buffy. Sexuality isn't that straight forward, even though I commented on the pointless of labels and boxes in the thread earlier, I still fell into that trap. A lesson learned 😉 🙂

 

[thetopher]

In regards to the Buffy/Satsu relationship...I agree that on this particulat thread nobody's out and out attacked it, (And I agree that saying that Buffy is straight doesn't attack it, but it does diminish it imo)...but on other threads people sure have.
It can be the downside of shipping, to attack another couple because you don't agree with it...which to me is the height of pointlessness. 🙁
For example I like Fred with Gunn, and I like Fred with Wesley- I do favour one over the other but I recognise both as real and important. And honestly, I think it should be like that with every character ship that's canon. 🙂
(I know that, in my weak moments, I can't help but attack Willow/Kennedy or Spuffy, but I do recognise that they were important to the characters involved. 🙂)

 

[Robb Stark]

Been away in Mexico for the last few days, so I'm a little late to the party, but I'll give it my best.

Basically, after reading extensively through this thread, I don't get the need to label. I'm in complete agreement (as I so often am 🙂) with [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]. On the specific topic subject, I completely see the double standard. My honest opinion however, in a more general, abstract, sense, is that the labeling of people, everyone, is completely counterproductive and, truthfully, pointless.

I know many won't agree with that, but it's how I feel. I think it's dumb. I think it's done nothing but cause harm and isolation to untold millions of people over the years. And really, when looking at things objectively, I think it's a joke. Society is obsessed with sex, I do get that (and as a 24 year old guy, I really get that), and with that obsession comes the need for a clear, linear definition, a nice picture that everyone fits into. The reality is however, that that's all crap. People are attracted to people. Some like members of the opposite sex, some like members of the same sex, some like both. Forcing everyone to pick and choose is, to me at least, confining ourselves. It's ridiculous. Who is anyone else to tell me, or anyone for that matter, what or who I am? Who has that right?

The answer? No one.

We are who we want to be. Nothing more and nothing less, and damn those who tell us otherwise. I don't like tomatoes, but I don't have a label involuntarily applied to me because of it. Why is sex any different? All labeling has ever done is hurt people.

You know what gets me the most about this? You know what grinds me? That at the end of the day, it's a lack of freedom. It's a lack of autonomy. I hate that. Sex does not define us, no more than monetary status, education or anything else does. What we do is what defines us. Labeling is not substantive. It is not a reflection on a person's caliber or capacity. It's a crutch society relies on to avoid critical thinking. I absolutely love the female body and never have the same emotional and mental adrenaline as when I'm connecting with a pretty girl, but, on principle, but I still don't think that's worthy of some impersonalized label. And I would feel exactly the same way if I was attracted to guys.

God this topic just doesn't make sense to me. This need so many of us have to label one another...to what end? For what purpose? What does it serve any of us, and why? It doesn't.

(as a side note, virtually all of this post was conducted half in the bag after a long week in Rocky Point, Mexico, and more than a little enjoyment of a good portion of an Arizona State Friday night, so take it for what you will, but it's the god's honest truth in my eyes, and it's how I feel)

 

[thetopher]

Very well put. 🙂

Unfortunatly this thread does, to some degree, have to address the whole 'label' thing as it relates to double standards in respective relationships.
To me it is gratifying that in modern life labels in regards to sexuality matter less and less, and I think in this regard television lags behind society in this way. Characters on shows have to be defined in certain way because that's how the network execs want it. 🙄
When it comes to straight, bi-sexual or bi-curious in real life the lines tend to blur so much that labels are really next to useless. And in that way, I believe, if Buffy was televised today fans wouldn't have to read between the lines so much when it came to some of the relationships, looking for subtext or hints between characters.
But then again it might take some of the... spark out of the debates people like to have on boards like these. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

Not trying to re-ignite any debates about sexuality but I found this Joss quote from E! online interview (taken from Slayer: The complete episode guide) about Willow's sexuality. I found it interesting:

"Marti and I debated about whether or not Willow was bisexual, experimenting, going back and forth. We thought, after Tara, it really would be disingenuous of us to have her be anything less than gay. So we decided that's pretty much final- that's who she is. To backtrack on that would make it appear as if Tara's death was something other than it was."

Personally, I think he made the right choice to keep Willow the way she was, (even though I don't like Kennedy) to change her 'back' would've been the wrong choice, and I think, harmful to a lot of gay/lesbian fans of the show. It would've sent a bad message.

My question is this, would the network have allowed it, to have Willow as a confirmed bi-sexual?
Personally I doubt it, most US networks are very wary of that whole subject. They prefer firm labels on their character's sexuality, at least back then.
And what do you think the fans would've made of it?