Spoiler! Is There A Way To Be Good Again? **Massive Twilight Spoilers***

[Kean]

Enter at your own risk!













Now that the dust has settled on this whole thing I've been thinking about the ramifications of Angel being Twilight on the character and my question is: can he be redeemed after this?

If we work under the assumption that this is Present!Angel and that he has been given some vision or something of that sort of THE apocaplypse brought on by Buffy and her slayers, specifically the spell she did to activate them. Do you think he is irreparably damaged or do you think, lending from The Kite Runner, "there is a way to be good again"?

I feel like the situation finds himself in is similiar to the Hitler question often posed to people. If you could travel back in time and meet Hitler as a child would you kill him knowing what devastation he would bring unto the world?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

If he's Present Angel, and he's in control of himself and responsible for his actions, then I can't see how he can be seen as anything other than voluntarily evil at this point.

We know that whatever the future ramifications of her actions might be, Buffy and the Slayers have been fighting for good, with no intent to cause future harm and no idea that their actions would damage the future, if that's what Twangel is after them for.

The first question is... why is Angel hiding his identity, even from Buffy. He must know that if it's vital she change her course of action, he'd get much better results by just going to her and being up-front about the problem.

He told Buffy he knows her intentions are good, and he told his own minions that Buffy has a moral certainty in her actions. Yet his actions have been calculated to hurt her both physically and emotionally, and he has not shown the slightest hint of reluctance, remorse, hesitation, or sorrow in doing the things he's done.

No one could do the things he's done, with the attitude he's done them, and not be evil.

The two most obvious loopholes are:

1. Angel isn't in control of his actions. I don't think Joss would go that direction only because we've seen it so many times before. You can only go to that well so many times before Angel starts looking less like a hero and more like a hapless schmuck. And if he's Angelus again, he's not behaving much like him. Twilight has been cold and methodical, whereas Angelus is gleefully malicious.

2. Twilight is Angel from the future, brought to his present state as a result of Buffy's actions in the present. That would mean that "our" Angel might still be good and can be averted from the course that leads to his being evil. But that story might already be being played out with Willow/Future Dark Willow... if you believe that FDW was really evil, which I don't.

Or Joss could hit the reset button at the end and undo everything, including Twilight's actions... but he did that with After the Fall and I guarantee he won't do it again.

Or Angel could repent of his evil at the end, but I can't imagine Buffy or anyone else buying that one. You only get so many chances before it stops being a "quest for redemption" and starts being "playing the world for suckers."

But without any of these loopholes, I can't see a way that Twangel could have killed and hurt as many good people as he has, with as little regret as he has shown, for any reason, and not be evil.

The kind of cruel brutality Twilight has engaged in seems impossibly out of character for souled Angel. I have to trust that Joss has something up his sleeve, and that I can't figure it out because he's a way better writer than I am.

 

[ubi4soft]

Completely redeemed ? No. But we could understand his actions if:
-the Apocalypse was imminent;
-he convinced the responsible powers (Senior Partners) that he should lead the final battles (the Shanshu mention from AtF);
-he convinced the responsible powers that it would be better if they concentrate first their attacks on the slayers army;

Why? Because he knew the slayers can defend themselves, the casualties would be minimum opposed of a global war.
Thus, Angel would have the opportunity to discover all the corrupted powers, deep knowledge of all their strong/weaker points and in the upcoming battle to switch to the good side and provide all the information needed for the good guys to win and decimate the forces of evil.

But Buffy would still beat him in the head with a stick for not telling her. That's another point: not keep Buffy informed=> various spies in his army that could report his actions to the powers.

His goal to end the magic would have a double purpose as a motivational speech against the slayers and, if it will be done, will end the influence of any external superior powers, either good, neutral or evil.

I'm sure Joss will come with the better story.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I think Buffy would be far more inclined to use her stick on his heart rather than his head.

I just don't see Angel being that cold-blooded and heartless toward good people, especially Buffy, no matter what he thought he "had" to do.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Now that the dust has settled on this whole thing I've been thinking about the ramifications of Angel being Twilight on the character and my question is: can he be redeemed after this?

I am going to answer this w/o having read others responses in this thread to avoid being influenced, so I apologize if I am reiterating something someone previously said.

What do I think? If souled Present!Angel is indeed Twilight as in that he is truly evil, and has done everything under his own free will - then no, I do not think Angel can be redeemed, as sad as I am to say this. If this were the case, Angel would be dead to me, as said in an earlier thread. There comes a point where you can no longer justify evil deeds, no matter how important a character is to you.

Yet, if it is FUTURE!Angel that is Twilight, and it turns out that Present!Angel is coming to save Buffy/her friends/the world from his Future Self, I think that could be really cool and explained. But, at this point, we can only see how it plays out, I guess. Then I will decide how I feel, once everything is explained.

If Angel is his present self, and if he is indeed truly evil with a soul, I think he has finally outdone himself. There will, in my mind, be no redemption for him. For me, this will be Joss ruining Angel's character and everything Angel stands for.

If this is the case - if it becomes obvious Angel has given up on his mission of redemption, and therefore, given up on who he is - that to me means the end of his character. His desire to do good, his mission to redeem himself, his desire for his humanity, is so closely linked to who Angel is as a person and as a character, without that - I'm not sure I'd know who he was anymore. It would be like if Buffy quit being the Slayer, or if Spike suddenly became a villain again. Making souled Present!Angel into a villain (Twilight) is grossly OOC and breaks canon, IMO.

If we work under the assumption that this is Present!Angel and that he has been given some vision or something of that sort of THE apocaplypse brought on by Buffy and her slayers, specifically the spell she did to activate them. Do you think he is irreparably damaged or do you think, lending from The Kite Runner, "there is a way to be good again"?

Nice usage of that quote. That was a great book.

See my above answer.

I feel like the situation finds himself in is similiar to the Hitler question often posed to people. If you could travel back in time and meet Hitler as a child would you kill him knowing what devastation he would bring unto the world?

I think the question we really need to be asking ourselves is; at what point will the wrong Angel has committed come to a point where we will find him unforgiveable? Angel has made some sketchy and morally ambiguous decisions in the past, and we have always justified them because we knew that, in the end, Angel truly believed that what he was doing was the right thing to do, in other words, that he was doing a service to the world. Yet, this...this is something worse then Angel has ever done. I guess we just have to ask ourselves, if souled Present!Angel is indeed truly evil...can we forgive him? I vote not.

 

[white avenger]

From what little we know and have assumed at this point, I'm leaning toward an Angel version of Dark Willow. Assume that something happened of the equivalent to Willow losing Tara, especially if he believed that the Slayers were responsible, and Angel could have snapped, causing him to form an alliance with the Initiative (which would explain Riley's involvement) or some other similar military group. That would have the double advantage of allowing Angel to be just as dangerous and evil as the writers want him to be while still retaining his soul, therefore no Angelus, PLUS it gives him the same sort of "Get Out Of Jail Free" card that Dark Willow had. Just spend the summer in England with the Coven, and all badness is forgiven and forgotten.

Angel's extra powers could still be explained away by simply saying that the suit he wears is the Buffyverse equivalent of Iron Man's armor.

However it's done, the one thing that I am certain of is that Joss is NOT going to let Season 8 end with Angel remaining evil. The Angel/Buffy relationship, in order to remain viable, can never conclusively be ended. It is one of the ongoing draws of the series. Let Buffy settle down in a little white house with a human Angel and raise fat happy kids means an end to the series, an end so absolute that it leaves no hope for continuation.

 

[Revolver]

I feel like the situation finds himself in is similiar to the Hitler question often posed to people. If you could travel back in time and meet Hitler as a child would you kill him knowing what devastation he would bring unto the world?

I think LOST fans know how Sayid would answer that question.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5DOXbuaB_0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5DOXbuaB_0[/ame]

 

[Kean]

I'm pretty much on the same page as yourselves lads that Twilight as Angel has been utterly ooc in his actions, speech, cruelty and general attitude. I also agree that Angel with a soul just would not do this. Considering everything that he has gone through since we first saw him in Sunnydale to the reset in ATF I can't imagine what could have turned him into Twilight. He has come through losing every single person he has ever cared about at one time or another, I just cannot imagine what was so bad that he became this.

One of the theories I have seen bandied around the net is that Cordelia gave him a vision. That is yet another repeat a story already told on Angel. I don't buy that either.

In his latest Q&A Scott Allie said that "What Twilight is remains to be seen." I feel like that is a very interesting choice of words.

What I do agree on is that it would be the complete decimation of the character as we have known him for 8 seasons of television and the comics. I really don't see how he could come back from it.

Or should we be asking, would he even want to?

 

[white avenger]

I really don't see how he could come back from it.

Or should we be asking, would he even want to?

Then again, it gives Buffy the chance to redeem yet another monster.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Then again, it gives Buffy the chance to redeem yet another monster.

Buffy was already responsible for making Angel into the hero he became. Doubt she'd want to do that again. If souled Angel is evil, he's a lost cause. How could she forgive him for what he's done to her and her people?

 

[Don]

...there aren't any massive twilight spoilers in this thread.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Now that the dust has settled on this whole thing I've been thinking about the ramifications of Angel being Twilight on the character and my question is: can he be redeemed after this?

If we work under the assumption that this is Present!Angel and that he has been given some vision or something of that sort of THE apocaplypse brought on by Buffy and her slayers, specifically the spell she did to activate them. Do you think he is irreparably damaged or do you think, lending from The Kite Runner, "there is a way to be good again"?

No, and no. Imo, the author wasn't necessarily "redeemed" in The Kite Runner. Certainly by the Whedon-verse standards, becoming a good guy and doing good deed does not necessarily equal redemption.

Back on topic though, lol, no. If Twilight is in fact present!Angel, he's a lost cause in my eyes. Champion!Angel never believed in sacrificing a few for the good of the masses, if that were the case he would have acquiesced to Jasmine in S4.

I feel like the situation finds himself in is similiar to the Hitler question often posed to people. If you could travel back in time and meet Hitler as a child would you kill him knowing what devastation he would bring unto the world?

That's a different question, and the more apt one, imo. I'm pretty sure Twilight is in fact Frayverse!Angel, downtrodden and from the future.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Here's what Scott told me... make of it what you will...

(Note: "Seven" is an inside joke at Dark Horse for a question that's too complex to answer.)

Me: Haven't gotten to the comic shop yet, but here's a question: Back in A Beautiful Sunset, Twilight told Buffy "you have brought about disaster, and it falls to me to avert it." Nothing the Slayers have done up to this point could be defined as a disaster, and usually one "averts" something that hasn't happened yet. Is there an element of time displacement at work here? (I know, I know... "Seven," right?)

Scott Allie: Yeah, kind of seven, but also, I think your question answers itself. The Slayers haven't done anything, that you can see, that qualifies as a disaster; but Twilight didn't say s/he (are we doing that?) was trying to repair damage done. When you knock over the first domino, someone looking from the right angle can tell the last domino in the line is going down long before it actually falls.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Here's what Scott told me... make of it what you will...

(Note: "Seven" is an inside joke at Dark Horse for a question that's too complex to answer.)

Personally, as someone who has thought Twilight was Angel from early on (if you recall I stated that Georges Jeanty would be a lying sc*mb*g if Twilight was not Angel, prior to the leak), I will be SHOCKED if Twilight isn't Frayverse!Angel.

There's just no way Joss would screw over IDW by telling them, "yeah, Angel has to evolve into a Super Villain over the course of the next couple of years! Sorry I didn't give you a heads up! Angel's descent to evil... GO"!

And more importantly, Joss isn't going to screw over the fans by ruining "the World's Champion" of the Buffyverse. Earth Prime!Angel (ours) has stated twice that he isn't able to sacrifice good people for the masses (said to Jasmine in S4 & to Wes in S5).

He may have done so unintentionally, but our guy couldn't be Twilight. It would take THE Apocalypse to turn him around that much, Fray's Apocalypse to be precise.

 

[white avenger]

Earth Prime!Angel (ours) has stated twice that he isn't able to sacrifice good people for the masses (said to Jasmine in S4 & to Wes in S5).

But that's exactly what he did when Fred's body was being taken over by Illyria. Dragon said that Illyria could be forced out of Fred and back into the Well Of Souls, but everyone between Fred and the Well would die. Angel chose to let her die and her soul be completely destroyed rather than kill all of those people.

If he believed sincerely that magic in general and the Slayers specifically were or would become a great enough menace, then he would certainly take it as his obligation as self proclaimed Champion and Helper Of The Helpless to take whatever he saw as appropriate action in order to stop it. As to why he didn't tell Buffy or any of the others, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that he has made important decisions concerning others without either asking them or even warning them about what was about to happen.

Remember the old adage about the road to hell being paved with good intentions? Angel just might have taken that rout once again.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Here's what Scott told me... make of it what you will...

(Note: "Seven" is an inside joke at Dark Horse for a question that's too complex to answer.)

This implies to me that Angel saw something in Buffy's future that she had done (something bad), and is attempting to avert in in advance...right? So, this implies there is a chance that Twilight is indeed Future!Angel.

 

[ubi4soft]

He may have done so unintentionally, but our guy couldn't be Twilight. It would take THE Apocalypse to turn him around that much, Fray's Apocalypse to be precise.

Sorry, he already did it intentionally, and YES he very well could be Twilight if he considers Twilight's way to be the lesser evil.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

But that's exactly what he did when Fred's body was being taken over by Illyria. Dragon said that Illyria could be forced out of Fred and back into the Well Of Souls, but everyone between Fred and the Well would die. Angel chose to let her die and her soul be completely destroyed rather than kill all of those people.

Letting die and murdering are far from being the same thing. Technically, Barack Obama & Nancy Pellosi could reroute taxpayer money to solve all of world hunger and much of the illness in the third world. They don't, because it's not what their constituents want. Does that make them murderers? Because if we start counting preventable deaths against people, I'm pretty sure Obama, Bush, and Clinton would have death tolls far higher than Hitler on their shoulders.

But preventable death is not equal to murder. Certainly not when you'd literally have to trade other lives for it, because by that standard, the developed nations would be honor-bound to invade every undeveloped country.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Personally, as someone who has thought Twilight was Angel from early on (if you recall I stated that Georges Jeanty would be a lying sc*mb*g if Twilight was not Angel, prior to the leak), I will be SHOCKED if Twilight isn't Frayverse!Angel.

There's just no way Joss would screw over IDW by telling them, "yeah, Angel has to evolve into a Super Villain over the course of the next couple of years! Sorry I didn't give you a heads up! Angel's descent to evil... GO"!

And more importantly, Joss isn't going to screw over the fans by ruining "the World's Champion" of the Buffyverse. Earth Prime!Angel (ours) has stated twice that he isn't able to sacrifice good people for the masses (said to Jasmine in S4 & to Wes in S5).

He may have done so unintentionally, but our guy couldn't be Twilight. It would take THE Apocalypse to turn him around that much, Fray's Apocalypse to be precise.

So let me get this straight: are we completely sure that Joss would not under any circumstances ruin Angel's character and make him voluntarily evil? I mean, yeah, I get what you're saying but are you positive this is the case?

If this Frayverse (THE) Apocalypse definitely going to happen, yes? Then the whole Buffy/Angelverse will be destroyed anyway if I'm correct...so why not make Angel evil? Why not burn some bridges as they say.

Angel has stated twice that he isn't able to sacrifice good people for the masses (said to Jasmine in S4 & to Wes in S5).

Yes, Angel has said this, but his actions have proved otherwise. Case in point: Fred. Angel sacrificed her for the masses.

 

[white avenger]

Letting die and murdering are far from being the same thing. Technically, Barack Obama & Nancy Pellosi could reroute taxpayer money to solve all of world hunger and much of the illness in the third world. They don't, because it's not what their constituents want. Does that make them murderers? Because if we start counting preventable deaths against people, I'm pretty sure Obama, Bush, and Clinton would have death tolls far higher than Hitler on their shoulders.

But preventable death is not equal to murder. Certainly not when you'd literally have to trade other lives for it, because by that standard, the developed nations would be honor-bound to invade every undeveloped country.

Allowing Fred to die when it could have been prevented isn't quite the same as taking her head off with an axe, but the results are exactly the same. By not taking the appropriate action to prevent Fred's death when it was presented to him, Angel has to take direct responsibility for that death. That his actions were for the greater good for the most people is without argument, but making decisions that affect other people's lives, sometimes quite drastically, is what Angel does. It can be justified because it resulted in (Angel's interpretation of what would be) the greatest good for the greatest number of people, but the fact remains, Angel has in the past made decisions that result in someone dying in order for others to live.

It's a decision that is understandable, perfectly defensible, and there is no doubt whatsoever that it was the necessary decision to make under the circumstances. There is no argument there. But if Angel would, no matter how reluctantly, sacrifice Fred's life to avoid killing thousands of others, then he would most certainly sacrifice the lives of Buffy, her friends, all of the new Slayers, and all of Twilight's army, plus his own, to save the entire world.

And please, PLEASE don't get me started on what Obama, Bush, or Clinton should have done but chose not to.