Spoiler! Is There A Way To Be Good Again? **Massive Twilight Spoilers***

So let me get this straight: are we completely sure that Joss would not under any circumstances ruin Angel's character and make him voluntarily evil? I mean, yeah, I get what you're saying but are you positive this is the case?

If this Frayverse (THE) Apocalypse definitely going to happen, yes? Then the whole Buffy/Angelverse will be destroyed anyway if I'm correct...so why not make Angel evil?
I'm beginning to believe the Frayverse Apocalypse will not happen exactly the same way due to Twilight's actions.

I think Joss realized that Buffy's world eventually becoming Fray's would make Buffy a complete failure (remember Buffy's exposition in TOYL?), so he decided to make them two separate time lines. With a more peaceful Prime!Buffyverse in the future, and Fray's chaotic one being separate, like the new Star Trek movie.

No, you're completely right Joan, there is the possibility that our Angel will be Twilight. In fact, that's the least convoluted scenario. But still, for the reason of Joss' sticky legal situation with IDW alone...


Allowing Fred to die when it could have been prevented isn't quite the same as taking her head off with an axe, but the results are exactly the same. By not taking the appropriate action to prevent Fred's death when it was presented to him, Angel has to take direct responsibility for that death. That his actions were for the greater good for the most people is without argument, but making decisions that affect other people's lives, sometimes quite drastically, is what Angel does. It can be justified because it resulted in (Angel's interpretation of what would be) the greatest good for the greatest number of people, but the fact remains, Angel has in the past made decisions that result in someone dying in order for others to live.

It's a decision that is understandable, perfectly defensible, and there is no doubt whatsoever that it was the necessary decision to make under the circumstances. There is no argument there. But if Angel would, no matter how reluctantly, sacrifice Fred's life to avoid killing thousands of others, then he would most certainly sacrifice the lives of Buffy, her friends, all of the new Slayers, and all of Twilight's army, plus his own, to save the entire world.

And please, PLEASE don't get me started on what Obama, Bush, or Clinton should have done but chose not to.

If you believe that preventable death is the same as murder then we really have nothing further to talk about. Angel did nothing to kill Fred. By your logic, you are currently murdering at least a dozen Haitians this very moment by not flying down there and helping the relief efforts and by not going broke sending every dollar you have.

Do I believe that you are a murderer due to inaction? Not at all. Are you by your standards? Very much so. Saying murder is the same as someone dying a hypothetically preventable death--it's just nonsensical.

You have to realize just how absurdly sticky that kind of reasoning is; and, to avoid the slippery slope, it's best not to step onto it in the first place.
 
If you believe that preventable death is the same as murder then we really have nothing further to talk about. Angel did nothing to kill Fred. By your logic, you are currently murdering at least a dozen Haitians this very moment by not flying down there and helping the relief efforts and by not going broke sending every dollar you have.

Do I believe that you are a murderer due to inaction? Not at all. Are you by your standards? Very much so. Saying murder is the same as someone dying a hypothetically preventable death--it's just nonsensical.
.

First off, how do you know that I'm not in Haiti writing this during my break time? And whether you believe either Angel or me to be a murderer has no beariing on whether we actually are or not. By some people's standards and beliefs, I and every other Viet Nam veteran are, in fact, murderers at the very least.

But regardless of whether or not I am, the discussion is whether Angel would allow one person or a relatively few people to die in order to save a substantially larger number of people, and my contention is that he has done exactly that in the past, and would no doubt do so again if he believed it to be necessary.

Also, I don't have to defend my actions, because I'm not Twilight, whereas he appears to be so. The real question is, could Angel, OUR Angel, not Future Angel or Parallel Dimension Angel, actually BE Twilight and justify the number of lives that have so far been lost and will be lost in the future. Could he commit an act of evil for what he considers a good cause? I say that he could, given a good enough reason.
 
This implies to me that Angel saw something in Buffy's future that she had done (something bad), and is attempting to avert in in advance...right? So, this implies there is a chance that Twilight is indeed Future!Angel.

Honestly, I believe that of all the scenarios we have come up with, Frayverse!Angel is the most compelling whilst preserving the integrity and fluidity of the verse. I also think it is the only explanation for the costume. In Time of Your Life when Willow goes to see the nekkid demon witch lady she informs Willow that an opening in the timelines between Buffy's world and Fray's world would open again that night. She didn't tell her how it would happen but she did make the request that Willow promise to not look when she pulled Buffy out. She obviously insisted on this so Willow wouldn't see her future self. Now we know from Dopplegangland that Willow could exist in the same reality with two versions of herself but I am fairly certain that Frayverse!Willow is our Willow, just 200 years older and that's why Present!Willow wasn't allowed see herself. This all happed when the comic was about half way through, at this stage the Frayverse was still on the cards to happen. I agree with BVF and think as Twilight has stepped up his attacks that reality has become less of a certainty. So, the point of this run on sentence is that I think Twilight is wearing the suit to prevent his present self from seeing his future self. What the conscequences of seeing one's future self is we're not sure but if Willow was explicitly asked not to look I'm going to assume they aren't of the good.

On the question of whether Joss could actually make Angel, souled Angel, evil, well yes he could but I don't believe he would. Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see on that one but at the end of the day besides Buffy, there is no other character that is more important to this verse. These two characters are key to the whole thing. Angel being the hero is every bit as integral with the mythos of his show as Buffy being the hero is with hers. You turn Angel into the villian and it will have a reverse domino effect on the part of the verse that has already been told. Everything he did before becomes pointless because of where we know he ends up. I personally think it would be lunacy to do that to the warrior he has Championed for 8 seasons of television and however many comic seasons.

On the Fred matter, I don't really see what else he was supposed to do? Everyone between the Well and L.A would have been killed if he did choose Fred. So thats what? a good chunk of England, all of Wales and Ireland and 48 out of the 50 United States of America. You're going on nearly 400 million people dead just for Fred?
 
U
ubi4soft
Angel was never a 'hero', that was the overuse of 'champion' about
On the Fred matter, I don't really see what else he was supposed to do? Everyone between the Well and L.A would have been killed if he did choose Fred. So thats what? a good chunk of England, all of Wales and Ireland and 48 out of the 50 United States of America. You're going on nearly 400 million people dead just for Fred?

That's my point exactly. If the fate of the entire world were at stake, then Angel would, however reluctantly, kill Buffy, all of her friends, and all of her army of Slayers. Activating that many girls at one time would almost certainly have a tremendous overload effect, just as bringing Buffy back from the grave did, only several thousand times worse. If you imagine one Slayer as a single light bulb in an electrical circuit as an example, it would work something like this: One light (Buffy) shines with no problem The circuit was set up to handle one light. Add a second light to the circuit, (Faith) and there is still no problem. The built in safety factor would allow for such an overload. Carry that analogy further, however, increase the circuit's load by a factor of, not 100%, but instead something on the order of 20,000% or more, and the circuit self delf destructs, burning the house (or planet, or even the entire universe) down.

If bringing back Buffy upset the Continuum enough to allow the First Evil to activate and command, not just an army of Bringers and a super powered general to lead them, but also a second army of ubervamps, just think of how many demons 2000 plus Slayers must have allowed access to our reality. Remember what Anya said in Season 2 about all of the demons left here are only the halfbreeds, and that all of the REAL demons, far more powerful and vicious, were expelled long before mankind took control of the planet? Assume that the First Evil was the one single Old One allowed to remain here, but carefully restrained in the hellmouth with its powers greatly limited. Maybe there has to be a balance of one true demon to one Slayer, since the Slayer's power comes directly from that demon. Doubling the stress by allowing both Buffy and Faith strains the restraint, but it can still function properly, at least for as long as Buffy was likely to live. Having her die and return, however, would create a surge in the cosmic forces that weakened the hellmouth seal enough for the FE to influence our reality, but not interact here directly.

Now, assume that Angel somehow learns that, because of the Slayer Overload, for want of a better term, is going to bring about an opening in our Reality similar to what Glory's spell would have done, but on a monumentally greater scale, as in the Super Apocalypse that Lindsey told him was coming, the FINAL BATTLE referred to in the beginning of the Fray mini-series. Given that kind of information, Angel would have no choice BUT to try to restore the Cosmic Balance. Why didn't he simply tell Buffy what she had done, so that Willow could at least try to correct the problem? Maybe the spell was irreversible, and becoming Twilight, forming a partnership with whatever or whoever the real leader of his current army (imagine Angel/Twilight as the Caleb in this case, with increased powers the same way that Caleb was) is the only possible way to correct the situation. For some reason, Buffy HAS to be kept ignorant of the situation, including his true identity, for some reason that will be revealed at a later date, so Angel has to become Twilight, someone completely unknown to Buffy or any of her friends.

That would explain why Buffy has suddenly become super powerful. The three gods that she had released gave her the additional powers in order to stop Angel from achieving his goal of averting the Super Apocalypse that will release all of their kind and allow them to walk the earth once more, bringing about the end of mankind totally. It would also explain why Giles would (if he actually is) work undercover for Twilight. He is our counterpart of the Wishverse Giles, who destroyed his own universe because the alternative "has to be better."

Given a scenario such as the above, Angel might, almost certainly would, regret what had to be done, but, given what we know of his character, he would nonetheless do what he felt had to be done, even to the point of killing the woman who he loved, one of the few true friends who he had left (Faith), and Buffy's few thousand followers. Certainly, his actual act would be evil, but, just like the nameless Operative in "Serenity," he would be doing everything that he did in order to build a better world, a world free of all aspects of supernatural elements, even himself. Remember what the Operative told Mal? "I am a monster. There will be no place for me in that better world." Like him, Angel fights knowing that, if he wins, he dies, and if he loses, everyone else does.
 
That's my point exactly. If the fate of the entire world were at stake, then Angel would, however reluctantly, kill Buffy, all of her friends, and all of her army of Slayers. Activating that many girls at one time would almost certainly have a tremendous overload effect, just as bringing Buffy back from the grave did, only several thousand times worse. If you imagine one Slayer as a single light bulb in an electrical circuit as an example, it would work something like this: One light (Buffy) shines with no problem The circuit was set up to handle one light. Add a second light to the circuit, (Faith) and there is still no problem. The built in safety factor would allow for such an overload. Carry that analogy further, however, increase the circuit's load by a factor of, not 100%, but instead something on the order of 20,000% or more, and the circuit self delf destructs, burning the house (or planet, or even the entire universe) down.
I like this light bulb analogy.

If bringing back Buffy upset the Continuum enough to allow the First Evil to activate and command, not just an army of Bringers and a super powered general to lead them, but also a second army of ubervamps, just think of how many demons 2000 plus Slayers must have allowed access to our reality. Remember what Anya said in Season 2 about all of the demons left here are only the halfbreeds, and that all of the REAL demons, far more powerful and vicious, were expelled long before mankind took control of the planet? Assume that the First Evil was the one single Old One allowed to remain here, but carefully restrained in the hellmouth with its powers greatly limited. Maybe there has to be a balance of one true demon to one Slayer, since the Slayer's power comes directly from that demon. Doubling the stress by allowing both Buffy and Faith strains the restraint, but it can still function properly, at least for as long as Buffy was likely to live. Having her die and return, however, would create a surge in the cosmic forces that weakened the hellmouth seal enough for the FE to influence our reality, but not interact here directly.
This is an interesting theory. I figured it would be impossible for Buffy and Co. to avoid the concequences of what they did in 'Chosen.' You don't pull off something that big and not pay for it. There are concequnces for everything in the 'verse.
Now, assume that Angel somehow learns that, because of the Slayer Overload, for want of a better term, is going to bring about an opening in our Reality similar to what Glory's spell would have done, but on a monumentally greater scale, as in the Super Apocalypse that Lindsey told him was coming, the FINAL BATTLE referred to in the beginning of the Fray mini-series. Given that kind of information, Angel would have no choice BUT to try to restore the Cosmic Balance. Why didn't he simply tell Buffy what she had done, so that Willow could at least try to correct the problem? Maybe the spell was irreversible, and becoming Twilight, forming a partnership with whatever or whoever the real leader of his current army (imagine Angel/Twilight as the Caleb in this case, with increased powers the same way that Caleb was) is the only possible way to correct the situation. For some reason, Buffy HAS to be kept ignorant of the situation, including his true identity, for some reason that will be revealed at a later date, so Angel has to become Twilight, someone completely unknown to Buffy or any of her friends.
Yes, Angel has proved that he is willing to do anything for his duty to the world, but if this theory is the case, would Angel be still operating under the assumption that he will eventually win his humanity once he has redeemed himself? This personal reward has been his main inspiration for continuing to fight. Yet, if Angel has truly lost the "good fight" and become a souled, voluntarily evil person, then how could he be redeemed? Perhaps I'm not making sense. All this is becoming increasingly more confusing for me, and it's waaayyyy too early in the morning but...
I just...can't see our Angel, with a soul, doing the things Twilight has done, although your theroy is well thought out.

That would explain why Buffy has suddenly become super powerful. The three gods that she had released gave her the additional powers in order to stop Angel from achieving his goal of averting the Super Apocalypse that will release all of their kind and allow them to walk the earth once more, bringing about the end of mankind totally. It would also explain why Giles would (if he actually is) work undercover for Twilight. He is our counterpart of the Wishverse Giles, who destroyed his own universe because the alternative "has to be better."
Again, good theory but it doesn't seem fair that Buffy is not aware of what's about to happen. She is totally in the dark. She can't properly prepare for what's to come.

Given a scenario such as the above, Angel might, almost certainly would, regret what had to be done, but, given what we know of his character, he would nonetheless do what he felt had to be done, even to the point of killing the woman who he loved, one of the few true friends who he had left (Faith), and Buffy's few thousand followers.
This is what I'm having a hard time believing. Angel is only human (figuratively). I don't know if he could do that. That's why my highest pick for Twilight was Future!Angelus. Angelus has no qualms about murdering good, innocent people.

Certainly, his actual act would be evil, but, just like the nameless Operative in "Serenity," he would be doing everything that he did in order to build a better world, a world free of all aspects of supernatural elements, even himself. Remember what the Operative told Mal? "I am a monster. There will be no place for me in that better world." Like him, Angel fights knowing that, if he wins, he dies, and if he loses, everyone else does.
This reminds me of something I was thinking about last night; if Present!Angel and Future!Angel met and fought physically, would they cancel each other out? Like, if one killed the other, wouldn't one be killing himself as well? The future can not kill the present without destroying himself, right? But...could the present kill the future w/o killing the present?

On the question of whether Joss could actually make Angel, souled Angel, evil, well yes he could but I don't believe he would. Maybe I am just seeing what I want to see on that one but at the end of the day besides Buffy, there is no other character that is more important to this verse. These two characters are key to the whole thing. Angel being the hero is every bit as integral with the mythos of his show as Buffy being the hero is with hers. You turn Angel into the villian and it will have a reverse domino effect on the part of the verse that has already been told. Everything he did before becomes pointless because of where we know he ends up. I personally think it would be lunacy to do that to the warrior he has Championed for 8 seasons of television and however many comic seasons.
I totally agree, but I think we should brace ourselves for the worst, my friend. My faith is Joss has diminished lately.

On the Fred matter, I don't really see what else he was supposed to do? Everyone between the Well and L.A would have been killed if he did choose Fred. So thats what? a good chunk of England, all of Wales and Ireland and 48 out of the 50 United States of America. You're going on nearly 400 million people dead just for Fred?
We're not saying that the decision Angel and Spike made was wrong regarding Fred (I personally agreed with it). All we're saying is that Angel is more then willing to sacrifice someone for the greater good, including murdering them. After all, having Lorne kill Lindsey because he wasn't part of the "solution" was IMO as bad as killing him with his own hand. Allowing Fred to die was just that - allowing her to die as in failing to save her.
 
I have great fear that we're gonna get Greater Gooded with this story. I hate that idea, because I have very serious moral problems with the concept of doing evil in the name of good... and the things Twilight has done are evil by the very definition of the word, regardless of motivation.

And this isn't Drogyn, or a roomful of evil lawyers, or even Fred we're talking about here. It's Buffy, the love of Angel's life. And it's thousands of Slayers and millions of innocent civilians who are being harmed by his actions, whether they realize it or not.

* He had Warren and Amy kidnap Willow, torture her with a scalpel, and try to destroy her brain.

* He let Warren and Amy send a missile to kill young girls in their beds, narrowly missing Dawn and Xander, and an army of conjured snake-men to kill even more.

* He sent hordes of demons disguised as toys to infiltrate the world's children, drain them of life, and turn them into walking dead.

* He tricked the people of the world to make themselves food for demons and willing prey.

* He tried to impale Buffy herself with a church steeple.

* He sent a demon army to the Scotland island base, killing a bunch of Slayers.

* He manipulated his followers Gigi and Roden into getting themselves gruesomely killed, and had one of his own employees executed for (he falsely believed) making a mistake.

* He attacked the Slayers in Tibet and killed dozens of them. In so doing he unnecessarily refused to let his own men retreat before an enemy they couldn't fight, getting dozens of them gratuitously killed, all the while lying to them about what they were fighting for and who they were fighting.

* And far from doing any of this reluctantly, he revelled in it. He sneered at Buffy's feelings to her face and insulted her gender; he derided her sense of moral certainty to his own allies; he gleefully anticipated manipulating Buffy into destroying herself; he eagerly watched the massacre in Tibet through binoculars. And all the while, he admittedly knew that Buffy and her Slayers had only good intentions and were fighting for right.

Now, could there be a scenario where all of this is necessary to prevent the literal destruction of the world? Maybe...

But who cares?

This is supposed to be a heroic adventure story, not a mathematical equation on how many innocents you can butcher in the name of saving more.

And given all the things listed above that Twilight has done, and the manner in which he's done them, I could never find myself cheering for him or thinking of him as a hero. My response would be, "Nice going. You saved the world, you filthy soulless bastard. Here's your medal. Go to hell."

The goal of an entertainment story is to make you glad you read it, one way or another. This would fail that test.

For Joss, this story is the equivalent of trying to jump the Snake River Canyon in a motorcycle. If he succeeds, it's going to be the most impressive storytelling feat I've ever seen. If he fails, he's going to crash and burn and there won't be anything left.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Nice. I completely agree with your stance and comments, Andrew.
B
Buffyverse Fan
I hope WhiteAvenger reads this post. Excellent Andrew.
First off, how do you know that I'm not in Haiti writing this during my break time? And whether you believe either Angel or me to be a murderer has no beariing on whether we actually are or not. By some people's standards and beliefs, I and every other Viet Nam veteran are, in fact, murderers at the very least.
Boy does your argument fall apart. The fact remains that in the developed world it is essentially unanimously believed that hypothetically preventable deaths are not even close to being the same as murder.

The real question is, could Angel, OUR Angel, not Future Angel or Parallel Dimension Angel, actually BE Twilight and justify the number of lives that have so far been lost and will be lost in the future. Could he commit an act of evil for what he considers a good cause? I say that he could, given a good enough reason.
Our Angel, the one we last saw in Angel: After the Fall - Epilogue #23, no, he couldn't start murdering his friends, lovers, and allies willy-nilly (for a full explanation see AndrewCrosset's post above mine).

What would it take to get Angel to that point? Years of isolation, Buffy's death, Connor's death, seeing the world itself crumble... i.e.- coming from the Frayverse.
 
I've got a question. If we are to compare to the the Fred situation, what would Buffy do or Spike or any of the champions (maybe bar Wes). Could you imagine Buffy creating a spell that she knew would kill many people? If you can't, it ceases to become a character issue in regards to Angel and if you can...that opens up another set of moral issues for Buffy. It's called choosing between two evils.
 
B
Buffyverse Fan
Kana, you're right. WhiteAvenger doesn't have a leg to stand on here.
U
ubi4soft
didn't Spike said 'there's a hole in the world' ,,?
I've been going through all the twilight scenes in the comics and there is some really Angle like mannnerism and sayings and then there is some off the wall remarks that even Angelus wouldn't say (like the just like a girl) comment. I can't see how Angel would just order someone to be killed (the guy who saw the spike which by the way knowing that is't Angle makes that scene hilarious bc Riley and Angel were like SPIKE?) Anyway we know Angel is a fantastic actor from the episode "Power Play" in season five of Angel and season three of Buffy "Enemies" Still I want to beleive that Joss Whedon can redeem Angel. So many people love his character and I think that since Joss has wanted to tell this story for so long he has his reasons so i'm going to wait and see if Joss can pull this off even if it's driving me CRAZY! By the way you guys have some really great theories!
 
I've got a question. If we are to compare to the the Fred situation, what would Buffy do or Spike or any of the champions (maybe bar Wes). Could you imagine Buffy creating a spell that she knew would kill many people? If you can't, it ceases to become a character issue in regards to Angel and if you can...that opens up another set of moral issues for Buffy. It's called choosing between two evils.

True, Kana. As the saying goes: choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

Still I want to believe that Joss Whedon can redeem Angel. So many people love his character and I think that since Joss has wanted to tell this story for so long he has his reasons so i'm going to wait and see if Joss can pull this off even if it's driving me CRAZY! By the way you guys have some really great theories!

Man, so do I. I want so much to believe that Joss can redeem Angel. Yet, I think there could come a point that Angel can no longer be redeemed. There is only so much evil one can do in the name of the "greater good."

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
 
Do you think that Twilight/Angel is the next counter measure against Fray timeline - instead of trying to kill Fray like Urkonn did, since Buffy's visit probably changed the Frayverse, instead Twilight is sent to "avert" the changes.

I stupidly believed all the much from Joss Whedon and Scott Allie about No Crossovers and Business Arrangements that would keep the two stories independent and separate - it did influence how I read the Buffy Season Eight.

There is no way that the DarkHorse and Joss Whedon would totally trash the Angelverse for IDW - I think that they are mistaken in saying that Twilight will not effect how readers to view the stories coming out of IDW now -
 
True, Kana. As the saying goes: choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

Maybe so but my argument is that you'd be hard pressed to find a champion who wouldn't make that decision. None this makes it any less shocking that Angel is Twilight. Considering Spike not only let Fred die as well but agreed and defended Angel by saying Fred wouldn't have wanted innocent people to die, makes Spike just as capable of being Twilight based upon the logic that those who make Utilitarian decisions could be Twilight. As it's been said, Angel has commited to just as many anti-utilitarian arguments and actions.
 
There is no way that the DarkHorse and Joss Whedon would totally trash the Angelverse for IDW - I think that they are mistaken in saying that Twilight will not effect how readers to view the stories coming out of IDW now -

Joss is not, and never has been, responsible for making his stories line up with non-canon stories written by others without his participation. Back when Dark Horse was doing Buffy comics during the show's run, they very often had their stories contradicted by stuff in the official canon.

IDW's job is to put out Angel stories that are enjoyable to read in their own right. But they are not entitled to tell Joss's story for him.
 
We have to remember something about Angel, the Buffyverse, and Joss Whedon. As much as we may love the character of Angel, during the time that he was on the Buffy series, he was nothing more than a support character, no matter how much Buffy might have cared for him, no matter how popular he was, and no matter how integral he was to the Buffy methos. Ha did not become the main character until he got his own show. Even when he returned to Sunnydale in a crossover, he was only listed as a guest star. We all know that, as far as support characters and guest stars are concerned, Joss considers them fair game. Joyce, Jenny Calendar, Jesse, Anya, Cordy, Wes, Fred, Lilah, Lindsey, and probably others whose names escape me at the moment, fell victim to the Whedon grim reaper. Angel and Spike are no better. On Buffy's show, both are simply support characters, and as such, little more than beloved cannon fodder. Joss could with a clear conscience, turn Angel evil once more and force Buffy to make the same heart breaking decision that she did at the end of Season 2. Joss is pure evil that way.

How would that affect IDW's Angel series? Not one bit. As has been stated before, Joss doesn't consider their story line after ATF to be canon anyhow, so he would be perfectly within his rights to ignore it entirely. If he were to do so, not that I believe that he actually would, but just for the sake of argument, Angel's non-canon series could continue anyhow. That might distress some fans, okay, a LOT of fans, it's still true. Joss and Dark Horse are under no obligation whatsoever, other than simple courtesy, to honor anything that happens with Angel and IDW.

I think that the chances of Angel being ultimately evil and/or being killed in Season 8 are about as slim as me winning the grand lottery, especially since I don't buy tickets, but then again, there is always a winner. Ye buys yo ticket, an' ye takes yo chance.
 
If we are talking about Angel's heroism and redemption being in contention because of what he has done in the name of the "greater good" then we have to talk about Buffy's moral ambiguity too. Buffy is just as guilty of making, not just Utilitarian decisions but selfish decisions, that help her get the job done but carry heavy consequences and more often than not, casualties.

The moment Buffy walked out of that mall in Innocence without staking Angelus was the first of these decisions. How many died because of that? The world nearly ended because of it and resulted in her making an even greater sacrifice than if she had killed Angelus in the first place. She tried to kill Faith in cold blood to save Angel. She was willing to risk the world for Dawn. In both seasons 6 and 7 she should have killed Spike both for her own safety and for the safety of those in her charge. When she comes back from Heaven she tells Giles that if she had to do it again she would let Dawn jump. She activated all the Slayers. In S8 she sees this as giving them a choice but really she forced a dark power on them just as she herself had. Right before Rodin yanks her over to England she is having a conversation with Willow in which she expressed her willingness to kill the human soldiers that were coming after her if she had to. During her spell in Fray's time she refused to help the people who were being attacked by the lurks because they didn't have time and "needed to look at the bigger picture". Buffy has led countless people in battle, knowing they will not all survive.

I'm not saying I disagree with any of these actions but the reality of Buffy and Angel are is that they are Generals fighting the same war on different fronts. When blood is spilled it is in their name. Whether Angel had saved Fred or not his hands were still going to be crimson. That's the reality of them being Champions, it's deeply flawed but we have yet to see another way that saves the world and allows people to retain their nobility.

Buffy: Does it ever get easy?

Giles: You mean life?

Buffy: Yeah. Does it get easy?

Giles: What do you want me to say?

Buffy: Lie to me.

Giles: Yes, it's terribly simple.

Giles: The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody
lives happily ever after.

Buffy: Liar.
 
Kana
Kana
Yep
We have to remember something about Angel, the Buffyverse, and Joss Whedon. As much as we may love the character of Angel, during the time that he was on the Buffy series, he was nothing more than a support character, no matter how much Buffy might have cared for him, no matter how popular he was, and no matter how integral he was to the Buffy methos. Ha did not become the main character until he got his own show. Even when he returned to Sunnydale in a crossover, he was only listed as a guest star. We all know that, as far as support characters and guest stars are concerned, Joss considers them fair game. Joyce, Jenny Calendar, Jesse, Anya, Cordy, Wes, Fred, Lilah, Lindsey, and probably others whose names escape me at the moment, fell victim to the Whedon grim reaper. Angel and Spike are no better. On Buffy's show, both are simply support characters, and as such, little more than beloved cannon fodder. Joss could with a clear conscience, turn Angel evil once more and force Buffy to make the same heart breaking decision that she did at the end of Season 2. Joss is pure evil that way.

I disagree. Just because Angel started out as a minor character it in no way detracts from the fact that he is integral to the Buffyverse at large. If Twilight had been anyone else I gaurantee the ripple effect on the rest of the verse would have been significantly smaller. If Angel was a disposable character, one of no real consequence we wouldn't be talking about the integrity of the entire verse being on the line here.

How would that affect IDW's Angel series? Not one bit. As has been stated before, Joss doesn't consider their story line after ATF to be canon anyhow, so he would be perfectly within his rights to ignore it entirely. If he were to do so, not that I believe that he actually would, but just for the sake of argument, Angel's non-canon series could continue anyhow. That might distress some fans, okay, a LOT of fans, it's still true. Joss and Dark Horse are under no obligation whatsoever, other than simple courtesy, to honor anything that happens with Angel and IDW.

Joss is also a business man, to "bone" IDW, as he has said himself, would be a grave mistake. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. I believe he is fully aware of that too.
 
B
Buffyverse Fan
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I disagree. Just because Angel started out as a minor character it in no way detracts from the fact that he is integral to the Buffyverse at large. If Twilight had been anyone else I gaurantee the ripple effect on the rest of the verse would have been significantly smaller. If Angel was a disposable character, one of no real consequence we wouldn't be talking about the integrity of the entire verse being on the line here.



Joss is also a business man, to "bone" IDW, as he has said himself, would be a grave mistake. You don't bite the hand that feeds you. I believe he is fully aware of that too.

Certainly Angel is an integral part of the Buffyverse, and that is why I seriously doubt that anything like that would ever happen. I also would have said the same thing about Joyce, and before anyone points it out, yes, Angel is a more important character in the overall Buffy saga than Joyce is. And I agree that the odds of it actually happening are about the same as me winning the lottery. But, let's remember, it's referred to as the Buffyverse for a reason. Bussy Summers is the only character in the series who we can be absolutely certain won't die in Season 8, simply because we have been assured that there will be a Season 9. Beyond that, everybody else, as much as we may love them, as important as they might be to the story, is fair game. In fact, since Joss has said that Season 9 WILL be the conclusion of the Buffy story, killing off some of the leading characters now might just appeal to him.

And as for "boning" IDW and their Angel story line, I still say that, since it takes place in what is in effect a parallel universe, having split off from Buffyverse canon with the conclusion of ATF, whatever happens at Dark Horse would have no bearing whatsoever with what happens to "their" Angel just as long as it is clearly established that there are, in fact, two separate time lines or realities. It isn't as if something like this hasn't happened before. Angel, Xander, and Willow was dusted in the Wishverse, and Cordy was killed without it ever affecting what happened in the "real" universe. This would just be reversing the process.

Besides which, even on the odd chance that Buffy DID have to stake Angel, she could always make a deal with the Powers That Be to live that day over and make sure that it never really happened. Or even better, to go back in time to the point when Angel turned evil and change that day. Of course, she would be the only one to remember that it ever really happened.
 
In fact, since Joss has said that Season 9 WILL be the conclusion of the Buffy story,

He hasn't said that, actually. In fact, he's said Buffy's story will go on as long as there are still stories to tell. Season 10 hasn't been discussed yet because no one knows how busy/inspired Joss will be by that time.

I do believe Fox would have a say in canonically killing off either Buffy or Angel.
 
B
Buffyverse Fan
Sanity Prevails!
He hasn't said that, actually. In fact, he's said Buffy's story will go on as long as there are still stories to tell. Season 10 hasn't been discussed yet because no one knows how busy/inspired Joss will be by that time.

I do believe Fox would have a say in canonically killing off either Buffy or Angel.

My mistake. The interview that I read was assuring the readers that there would be a Season 9, not that it would end there. My bad interpretation.

As for killing off Angel or Buffy, as has been proven time and again in the Buffyverse, death is rarely the final scene. He's killed Buffy, Angel, and (arguably) Spike already, and they haven't stayed dead. No reason that he couldn't do it at least one more time.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 PM ----------

Comments on this post
ubi4soft agrees: Joss NEVER killed Angel

Okay, Joss had Buffy send Angel to hell with a sword stuck in his chest. But Buffy believed at that time and always said later, that she had killed him, just as she believed that Spike died in the hellmouth. Also, Darla was actually killed, turned, and dusted, not once, but twice. My point is, Joss has always seemed to be able to change his mind later whenever he killed someone.
 
U
ubi4soft
Joss NEVER killed Angel
Like most people - I also have been wondering how Angel could become Twilight - i.e. how he could be a hero/champion and then turn villian again - without becoming Angelus.

Then I read about that in Angel: After the Fall Issue 12 - Angel is shown that in order to become human again(i.e. for the Shanshu prophecy to be fullfilled) - he has to fight in an upcoming apocalypse on the side of evil.

And after re-reading "A Beautiful Sunset" - where Twilight talks about the he must advert the disaster that Buffy has brought about.

It remained me of something that Batman told Gordon at the end of "Dark Knight". Where he tells Gordon that he can be what ever Gothom need him to be - even if that means that he must be hunted & treated like the villian.

And if the Whedon'verse - has a character that is like Batman(the Dark Knight) - then it would be Angel. While Buffy would be more like Super Girl.
 
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