Spoiler! Is There A Way To Be Good Again? **Massive Twilight Spoilers***

Like most people - I also have been wondering how Angel could become Twilight - i.e. how he could be a hero/champion and then turn villian again - without becoming Angelus.

Then I read about that in Angel: After the Fall Issue 12 - Angel is shown that in order to become human again(i.e. for the Shanshu prophecy to be fullfilled) - he has to fight in an upcoming apocalypse on the side of evil.

And after re-reading "A Beautiful Sunset" - where Twilight talks about the he must advert the disaster that Buffy has brought about.

It remained me of something that Batman told Gordon at the end of "Dark Knight". Where he tells Gordon that he can be what ever Gothom need him to be - even if that means that he must be hunted & treated like the villian.

And if the Whedon'verse - has a character that is like Batman(the Dark Knight) - then it would be Angel. While Buffy would be more like Super Girl.
Great points you bring up here. I think you may very well be right.

The illusions to Batman in Angel are pretty obvious. There's a great essay in the collection titled Reading Angel all about how Angel is basically a more contemporary version of Batman. It's well-written. I recommend it.
 
The difference is, of course, that Batman didn't actually turn evil and start killing innocent people. He just allowed the public to think that he was.
 
The difference is, of course, that Batman didn't actually turn evil and start killing innocent people. He just allowed the public to think that he was.

True - but then we don't know the full story - yet. And we won't know the full story until the Season Finale.

But knowing Joss - I highly doubt it's as plan and simple as saying "Angel is evil". That's just a bit too cut and dry. So I definitely believe there's some more plot twists and turns in the story. Possibly stuff that we haven't even though of yet.
 
I watched "Watchman" last night, now granted, I've never read the graphic novel (though I now plan to) but the movie and particularly the character of Ozymandias got me thinking about Angel/Twilight. Ozymandias was a hero turned businessman who saw himself as the arbiter of what is 'good' for the world - he kills many for the greater good and is responsible for bringing about world peace. Now I don't really know where i'm going with this but it just seems that this might be sort of where Twilight's mind is at.
Can he be good again? I don't know - depends if he gets others to support/understand his actions the way Ozy did , mind you, I could never see Ozy as a hero, I'm with Rorschach...
 
History is full of examples of people who committed what we, and even at times, they themselves, believed were acts of pure evil simply because they believed that what they did was ultimately for the greater good. Throughout Angel's series, Angel has set himself up as the ultimate and final judge of what should be done, even when it changes the lives of people who he loves. His series itself is based on the idea that he he left the woman he loved, who loved him, because it was for the greater good. At no point did Angel sit down with Buffy over coffee and sweet rolls and say, "Okay, I realize that I'm so handsome, so sexy, and just so utterly irresistible that you will never be able to keep your hands off of me, and we already KNOW where that's gonna lead, so I think that we should really consider me moving back to Los Angeles. Are you going to eat the rest of that cinnamon roll?" He simplt took it upon himself to say, "After we squash Mayor Wilkins in his giant worm mode, I'm heading out for LA. Figure out a way to live with it."

Angel's decisions of that nature over the next five years steadily escalated to the point that, by the end of his series, he felt perfectly justified in ordering Lorne to murder Lindsey, who was at that time fighting on his side, because of what he MIGHT do in the future, assuming that they should survive what Angel himself described as a mere gesture, the attack on the Circle of the Black Thorn. Even further, he attacked the Circle KNOWING that it would result in the Senior Partners launching a full scale attack on mankind, and knowing that that attack would result in the deaths of untold numbers of men, women, and children. Yes, the SP's planned on attacking anyway, but at some time in the future, but the key phrase there is IN THE FUTURE, which meant that there was still time remaining to plan a better defense than half a dozen well intentioned if poorly motivated individuals staging a Kamikaze attack (except of course, for the fact that there would be no Season 6 in which such a plan could be carried out).

The point is, within the course of five years, Angel has progressed from making decisions for a single Slayer "for the greater good." to doing the same thing for the entire population of Los Angeles. Given the amount of time between that point and when Season 8 takes place, having Angel bring about as much loss of life as Twilight has done isn't such a stretch of the imagination, especially if he believes that, in doing so, he is actually saving the entire human race from an even greater danger, something like averting the "final battle" aluded to first in the Fray cycle and later in Season 8. There might even be some sort of tie in with the fact that Twilight's supposed purpose, the destruction of all supernatural forces and demons on earth, is exactly the result of the Final Battle itself.
 
Kean
Kean
I still think if you are gona be mad at Angel for all that he has done then you have to be mad at Buffy too.
That's a plausible story... but it's not a heroic one, and it's not one I will have enjoyed reading.

Heroes find ways to achieve good goals without giving themselves to evil... and the things Angel has done are objectively evil, whatever his motives.
 
That's a plausible story... but it's not a heroic one, and it's not one I will have enjoyed reading.

Heroes find ways to achieve good goals without giving themselves to evil... and the things Angel has done are objectively evil, whatever his motives.
Well, there goes the 'champion' tag attached to Angel through entire series contrasted to Buffy's hero for that matter. We had Giles defining what a hero does or not in The Gift and Angel is not one according to that definition.
 
Out of curiousity guys, who do you consider heroes in the Buffyverse? I can't think of anyone who hasn't either comitted or endorsed "evil" means to a "good" ends.
 
white avenger
white avenger
And that's my point. Everyone on either show has at one time or anoyjrt. Buffy and Angel, being the greatest champions, would logically make the greatest mistakes. (If I were really evil, I would use Bangel as an example, but I'm just too nice a guy
Honestly, I'm having a hard time too. Fred comes to mind but even she was willing to kill that man which some could argue that he deserved it anyway. I think they've all screwed up at some point but I dont think that makes them any less heros. The biggest Hero for me would have had to have been Xander or Fred. They did not have the best fighting skills, they could have left, there was no reason for them to stay but they did because they could not just turn away from the wrong and pretend that it was not there. The others were either forced into it, or choose to stay themselves but actually had effective ways to defend themselves. Xander and Fred fought because that was the right thing to do even though it was more dangerous for them to than the others. They were sacrificing their well being for that of others and pretty much gave up their life too.
 
I don't know if having not killed someone should be the selling point on her heroism. I suppose what this comes down to is what we each, individually, view as heroic?
 
B
Buffyverse Fan
Personally, I think Wes & Giles' Watcher training to take out the threats at all cost was more heroic than Buffy's "no kill" policy.
Out of curiousity guys, who do you consider heroes in the Buffyverse? I can't think of anyone who hasn't either comitted or endorsed "evil" means to a "good" ends.

Oddly enough... I think Cordelia may be the purest hero in the Buffyverse. She may have been a real pill at times, but I don't remember her ever advocating a truly evil act or really wanting to hurt anything apart from Xander's self-image. Fred and Oz, close behind. Lorne, right up until NFA.

But it's a matter of degree, as much as it pains me to say it. And Joss and I clearly have different approaches to questions of morality and heroism.

Taking pleasure in hurting good people is the gold standard of evil in my book. People who cross that line deserve to die and go to hell, AFAIK, both in fiction and real life. They can explain their adherence to the "greater good" to the devil in charge.

To use evil to achieve good is to transform good into evil.
 
U
ubi4soft
[No message]
E
Emzzie
I forgot about her, nice one and I agree!
Oddly enough... I think Cordelia may be the purest hero in the Buffyverse. She may have been a real pill at times, but I don't remember her ever advocating a truly evil act

I thought the same thing. "Saint" Cordelia of S3 was probably the most pure major fighter. I think Doyle was also a true "Hero."

As Anya said, Buffy was chosen, Angel was too, so I'd say characters that had the choice might be truer heroes. By that standard, Spike was easily the most effective Hero who was working by his own volition. Wes might also fall into that category.

Tara & Fred were probably the purest, but neither were nearly as valuable to the good fight as Angel, Buffy or Spike.
 
Out of curiousity guys, who do you consider heroes in the Buffyverse? I can't think of anyone who hasn't either comitted or endorsed "evil" means to a "good" ends.

To borrow a line from John Wayne in "The Alamo (1960),"
"Anyone willing to take a stand against what's wrong is worthy of being called a hero." Simply being a hero doesn't mean that someone can't ever do something unheroic, wrong, or even downright evil if they believe that their actions will ultimately result in a good result. Remember the nameless Operative in "Serenity?" He freely admitted that he was a monster, and that the things that he did were evil, cruel, and despicable. He believed that he was working to build a better world, a world where he himself would have no place. That he was ultimately proven wrong doesn't change the fact that he honestly believed that his goal was worth whatever sacrifice, whatever crime, and whatever sacrifice necessary, both his and others, to achieve that goal.

In disaster management, there is a term called "Triage," which basically means that, in order to save the most victims, some, the most badly injured, the ones who ultimately almost certainly cannot be saved in any case, will have to be sacrificed so that the ones who CAN be saved, WILL be saved. If Angel had somehow seen the coming battle, seen the loss of life and devastation that would result, he might very well have made the decision that the military forces under his command and the Slayers and witches under Buffy's command, who would die in any case, might, by forcing a confrontation between the two forces, having them destroy each other, the Final Battle's affect on the human race (perhaps total, or near total destruction)might be greatly reduced or completely avoided.
 
That's not my definition of a hero... but obviously it is Joss's.

Which doesn't really bode well for my future in his fandom, does it?

I suppose if everyone in the world dies except one person, and that person is good, then good wins.

But who cares?
 
white avenger
white avenger
A line from the novel "Alas, Babylon," about life after a nuclear war: "Yeah, we won. Not that it matters anymore..."
I'm starting to believe that there really isn't any such thing as a hero.
 
I watched "Watchman" last night, now granted, I've never read the graphic novel (though I now plan to) but the movie and particularly the character of Ozymandias got me thinking about Angel/Twilight. Ozymandias was a hero turned businessman who saw himself as the arbiter of what is 'good' for the world - he kills many for the greater good and is responsible for bringing about world peace. Now I don't really know where i'm going with this but it just seems that this might be sort of where Twilight's mind is at.
Can he be good again? I don't know - depends if he gets others to support/understand his actions the way Ozy did , mind you, I could never see Ozy as a hero, I'm with Rorschach...

Yeah, I definitely see a similarity too with Angel and that film.

By the way, if everyone hasn't seent that movie they totally should. It's really, really good.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Angel is Ozymandias, Spike is the Night Owl, and Buffy is the girl in the yellow tights whose name escapes me at the moment. I can live with that. Does that make Giles Radchek?
I watched "Watchman" last night
lol.. well that answers THAT question!

---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

if everyone hasn't seent that movie they totally should. It's really, really good.
I seent it but maybe the version I seen was not the right one.. I was not impressed. There is more than one version; which should I watch?
 
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