Is there fault with Dawn?

I disagree, Dawn is the love of Buffy's life and she could not bear losing her. There was no certainty she could be brought back (at the end of Forever Dawn accepts she can't bring Joyce back no matter how much she loves her).

The big sister should not outlive her little sister. Dawn attempting to jump was the right thing to do but Buffy stopping her and jumping herself was the right choice
 
saturn5 said:
.... If Dawn had killed herself Buffy probably would too, she wouldn't have been able live without her. By contrast Dawn may be heartbroken by losing Buffy and Joyce but she copes. Buffy needs Dawn a lot more than Dawn needs Buffy....
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I have to disagree also. IMO they needed each other equally, Buffy needs Dawn as the only family she has left, but Dawn needs Buffy just the same. Had it been Dawn that had jumped I'm sure Buffy would have dealt with it rather than kill herself. She would probably have just gone into full slay mode.
 
DanAngelus said:
I have to disagree also. IMO they needed each other equally, Buffy needs Dawn as the only family she has left, but Dawn needs Buffy just the same. Had it been Dawn that had jumped I'm sure Buffy would have dealt with it rather than kill herself. She would probably have just gone into full slay mode.
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Which may have been tantamount to suicide anyway, stripped of those she loved the slaying would be all she had left and the slayer deathwish would come to the fore if she has nothing to live for but the killing.

Dawn is Buffy's reason for what she does (both literally and figuratively, she literally protects Dawn and figuratively protects all those millions of other Dawns all over the world)
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
I completely agree!
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
[No message]
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but wasn't Dawn still chained up at that point? Glory's plan was to OPEN the gate, not close it, so she had never actually had any plan to reclose it. Even from a practical sense, there might not have been time to release her, since every moment counted. Maybe Buffy was strong enough to break the chains or lock, but she never tried, and Dawn certainly couldn't, so there never really was any choice to make. Buffy was the only one who could close the gate at that moment.

(As I said, I might be wrong about Dawn being chained, but if that WAS the case...)

I just checked, and I was wrong. Dawn was free when Buffy jumped. Sorry about that, folks. With the chains out of the picture, there's no reason whatsoever that Buffy couldn't have tossed Dawn over the edge, thus eliminating another two years of televised irritation. Just a bad decision on the Slayer's part.
 
D
Daniel Osbourne
"Televised irritation? Do you even like Buffy??"
saturn5 said:
Which may have been tantamount to suicide anyway, stripped of those she loved the slaying would be all she had left and the slayer deathwish would come to the fore if she has nothing to live for but the killing.

Dawn is Buffy's reason for what she does (both literally and figuratively, she literally protects Dawn and figuratively protects all those millions of other Dawns all over the world.
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Interesting points. Dawn is a reason for what she does, but she also has the rest of the Scoobies don't forget, it wasn't just her and Dawn alone together. IMO she would have eventually returned to somewhat her normal self with the help of her friends and may have even ended up in a better state than she did after coming back from the dead (again).

Also although I agree that Dawn did do her best in the situation if she had jumped instead of Buffy then the First would never have been able to cause so much trouble in S7.

white avenger said:
...there's no reason whatsoever that Buffy couldn't have tossed Dawn over the edge, thus eliminating another two years of televised irritation. Just a bad decision on the Slayer's part.
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I was going to reply to you saying that there were no chains but lmao at the last bit! Well said lol 😛.
 
white avenger said:
I just checked, and I was wrong. Dawn was free when Buffy jumped. Sorry about that, folks. With the chains out of the picture, there's no reason whatsoever that Buffy couldn't have tossed Dawn over the edge, thus eliminating another two years of televised irritation. Just a bad decision on the Slayer's part.
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Completely agree. I would have enjoyed Dawn's character a lot more if she had gone away...
 
saturn5 said:
Which may have been tantamount to suicide anyway, stripped of those she loved the slaying would be all she had left and the slayer deathwish would come to the fore if she has nothing to live for but the killing.

Dawn is Buffy's reason for what she does (both literally and figuratively, she literally protects Dawn and figuratively protects all those millions of other Dawns all over the world)
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I completely agree. I'm only beginning season 5 in my re-watch, but it's becoming clear to me how important Dawn is to Buffy remaining in touch with her humanity. She is starting to find out who she really is (from Restless on, although not completely until season 7), and is afraid that she will lose herself in the violence. Her friends, and her family (even more poignant with the addition of a younger sister who is, as the monk said "an innocent") ground her in her humanity. From the very beginning of the series, it's what makes her different from other slayers. Going all bezerk on evil isn't what's going to allow her to survive.
 
Which may have been tantamount to suicide anyway, stripped of those she loved the slaying would be all she had left and the slayer deathwish would come to the fore if she has nothing to live for but the killing.
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Since when is Dawn "those she [Buffy] loved"? She is just one person. Why should she be more important to Buffy than Joyce, Willow, Xander or Giles? It's not that I dislike Dawn or anything but your insistence that the Dawn-Buffy bond is so much more special than Buffy's bond with anybody else frankly baffles me.
 
When it came down to the crunch I always wonder would Buffy have let Dawn jump. She is quiet adamant that she would choose Dawn over everything else, but in the moment when the portal opens and Dawn says "look what's happening". I always thought there was a doubt in Buffy there, when Dawn pleads to let her go. I think Buffy would have let Dawn die to save the world if there hadn't been a second option because Dawn would force her to. Dawn wasn't stupid she seen the end of the world and tried to jump straight away, she wouldn't want to live for a few moments extra if it meant everything died with her. I think she would have made Buffy see that too.
 
Icarium said:
Since when is Dawn "those she [Buffy] loved"? She is just one person. Why should she be more important to Buffy than Joyce, Willow, Xander or Giles? It's not that I dislike Dawn or anything but your insistence that the Dawn-Buffy bond is so much more special than Buffy's bond with anybody else frankly baffles me.
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Because it just is. I don't know why that is, or how she becomes that way. But it's pretty obvious that that's how it develops this entire season, from the moment the monk tells her that she's an innocent, that she must be protected, to the moment when Buffy refuses to sacrifice Dawn for the entire world's survival. She's her sister, she's blood, she's her younger sister at that (so she feels protective of her), and she's an innocent. Maybe you don't like that, and that's fine, but it is how it is. Besides the fact that Joyce dies and her father has abandoned them, so she is all she has left of her blood family.
 
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
[No message]
No, it's not. Buffy thought she couldn't go on and fight without Angel, yet she did. In S7 she says she is ready to sacrifice Dawn, if need be. Yes, for a moment in The Gift Buffy was all "Dawn, Dawn, Dawn" but at that point she wasn't really being all that rational to put it mildly. I for one am not certain at all she would have lost the will to live had Dawn died in The Gift. Then again, maybe it's because I am frankly appalled by her idea that a few minutes more life for Dawn are worth the deaths of everyone in the world including her supposed friends and I like to explain it as temporary insanity.
 
Icarium said:
Since when is Dawn "those she [Buffy] loved"? She is just one person. Why should she be more important to Buffy than Joyce, Willow, Xander or Giles? It's not that I dislike Dawn or anything but your insistence that the Dawn-Buffy bond is so much more special than Buffy's bond with anybody else frankly baffles me.
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I totally agree with you here. The Dawn/Buffy relationship wasn't even really necessary. They don't really need each other. They don't complete each other. Yeah, Dawn was made out of Summer's blood, but it doesn't necessarily mean she is a part of them. She is not that important to the show. She should have jumped.

VisionGirl said:
Because it just is. I don't know why that is, or how she becomes that way. But it's pretty obvious that that's how it develops this entire season, from the moment the monk tells her that she's an innocent, that she must be protected, to the moment when Buffy refuses to sacrifice Dawn for the entire world's survival. She's her sister, she's blood, she's her younger sister at that (so she feels protective of her), and she's an innocent. Maybe you don't like that, and that's fine, but it is how it is. Besides the fact that Joyce dies and her father has abandoned them, so she is all she has left of her blood family.
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I can understand where you are coming from Vgirl. Yeah at first Buffy is like "She's not even my real sister, she's just an instrument, blah blah blah..." and we can all see that the love she has for her is so strong that she decides not to sacrifice her. However, Dawn is not crucial to Buffy's existence. If anything, it's the other way around.

you know what I think? I think someone should have just killed Dawn before the portal was supposed to open. It would have avoided the entire "world ending in another dimension spilling in to ours" deal. 🙂
 
msfantastico87 said:
I totally agree with you here. The Dawn/Buffy relationship wasn't even really necessary. They don't really need each other. They don't complete each other. Yeah, Dawn was made out of Summer's blood, but it doesn't necessarily mean she is a part of them. She is not that important to the show. She should have jumped.
I can understand where you are coming from Vgirl. Yeah at first Buffy is like "She's not even my real sister, she's just an instrument, blah blah blah..." and we can all see that the love she has for her is so strong that she decides not to sacrifice her. However, Dawn is not crucial to Buffy's existence. If anything, it's the other way around.
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I'm viewing it in the whole context of season 5, and the question of identity for Buffy (really, all the characters- it started in Restless). She absolutely HAS to connect with and ground herself in her human life, or the Slayer side will dominate, and she will indeed die, as Spike has predicted. Yes, Joss and the other writers chose Dawn to be essential for this. No, I suppose she didn't need her, but really, who is closer in a more primal way that a blood sibling? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, I dunno, but it's becoming more clear to me the more I watch season 5.

Now, she did indeed die. But she chose it. But it also makes perfect sense that her friends would choose to resurrect her, even though we know it wasn't the right decision.

---------- Post added at 01:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

msfantastico87 said:
you know what I think? I think someone should have just killed Dawn before the portal was supposed to open. It would have avoided the entire "world ending in another dimension spilling in to ours" deal. 🙂
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Of course, it was suggested by Giles and others. But Buffy would have never allowed it.
 
No, I suppose she didn't need her, but really, who is closer in a more primal way that a blood sibling?
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Dawn is not really Buffy's blood sibling any more than Buffy is an 18th century woman, Xander an Army!Guy or Willow is Warren. The only difference is the spell which turned her into a human girl is more long lasting than those spells mentioned above. Now, if Buffy wants to sacrifice herself for Dawn for some other reason, that's fine by me. Doing it just because of the fake memories is, well, insane. YMMV and all that.
 
M
msfantastico87
[No message]
Daniel Osbourne disagrees: "Televised irritation? Do you even like Buffy??"

I like Buffy just fine. It's Dawn that I found to be an irritation.
 
frankie said:
When it came down to the crunch I always wonder would Buffy have let Dawn jump. She is quiet adamant that she would choose Dawn over everything else, but in the moment when the portal opens and Dawn says "look what's happening". I always thought there was a doubt in Buffy there, when Dawn pleads to let her go. I think Buffy would have let Dawn die to save the world if there hadn't been a second option because Dawn would force her to. Dawn wasn't stupid she seen the end of the world and tried to jump straight away, she wouldn't want to live for a few moments extra if it meant everything died with her. I think she would have made Buffy see that too.
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Exactly, Buffy's talk to Giles in The Gift makes it clear she values Dawn above all. Her letter to Dawn in End of Days says the same
 
Dawn was a kid who was hardly ever allowed to make a decision by herself in the entire Season 5. No way Buffy would have let her argue anymore than she did about who would jump. Buffy was her guardian at that point. No way was Dawn mature enough to make that kind of decision over Buffy. As a newbie to this site and only having watched through Bargaining I and II, I just don't really get all the Dawn hate on here. She was kind of important to the story arc, to say the least. Yes, she was a bit of an annoying kid, but aren't most kids around her age kind of annoying to begin with? Dawn was a main character in the second finest Buffy season I have watched ( so far, bested only by Season 3), so I guess I just don't find her as annoying as a lot of people do. And let me just say, Glory was the coolest Baddie on the show behind Faith. Season 5 was great and Dawn had a lot to do with it. Just my two cents.
 
I made a similar thread in the season 5 discussion, and yes, I firmly believe Dawn should have jumped. Buffy jumping didn't solve anything, because the hellmouth was still open and random demons will still be coming to Sunnydale. Dawn is to dumb to realize this and essentially dooms the entire world, because there is no slayer to defend it. I hate Dawn with a fiery passion...and her decision during "The Gift" just adds more fuel to the fire
 
I hate Dawn with a fiery passion...and her decision during "The Gift" just adds more fuel to the fire
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What? Buffy stopped Dawn from jumping. If you want to blame somebody for that decision, blame Buffy.
 
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