Issues in Buffy

[nightshade]

There's always articles out of top 10 issues in Buffy, things that if the show was on air today wouldn't be included.

However, is there things that you remember watching previously and thought shouldn't have been in the show?

Is there stuff that at first watch you didn't see an issue with but did on subsequent viewings?

 

[Btvs fan]

There's always articles out of top 10 issues in Buffy, things that if the show was on air today wouldn't be included.

However, is there things that you remember watching previously and thought shouldn't have been in the show?

Is there stuff that at first watch you didn't see an issue with but did on subsequent viewings?

Something that didn't happen but Joss wanted Cordelia to be black.
So the high school bitch whose jealous of the white blonde heroine who was his stand in character is black.... yeah that's not.

For the show, it was Riley discovery of Spike sniffing his Girlfriend clothes and not being immediately repulsed but almost like oh you scamp Buffy will kill you if she finds out 😬

ON Angel the guy from Happy Anniversary who tries to imprison his girlfriend forever because she's going to break up with him and Angel takes him for a beer ... Bros before hoes I guess 🤷

Angel first setting eyes on 15 Yr old Buffy and latter telling her he loved her from when he first saw her then dating her when she's 16 ...yikes

Xander creepy reaction to thinking a14yr old has a crush on him again yikes

 

[hoponlilmama]

The more you re-watch the series and the older you get, your perception of characters and/or their actions change.

Sometimes you just pick up on things many years later because you initially didn't notice them.
Whilst all of us fans can critique and pick out the flaws, we remember the show was made in the 90s/00s, and we weren't as vocal about issues that somehow were 'acceptable' at the time.

Just off the top of my head:

-Buffy saying Chloe was an idiot after she took her life wouldn't go down well in today
-Spike/Buffy's 'relationship'
-"Don't get hit"
-Lack of diversity
-Spike's behaviour in s5. First time I watched, there's emphasis on the laughs and angled to being almost sympathetic towards Spike. Each re-watch, the ick factor grew rapidly.

 

[Btvs fan]

The more you re-watch the series and the older you get, your perception of characters and/or their actions change.

Sometimes you just pick up on things many years later because you initially didn't notice them.
Whilst all of us fans can critique and pick out the flaws, we remember the show was made in the 90s/00s, and we weren't as vocal about issues that somehow were 'acceptable' at the time.

Just off the top of my head:

-Buffy saying Chloe was an idiot after she took her life wouldn't go down well in today
-Spike/Buffy's 'relationship'
-"Don't get hit"
-Lack of diversity
-Spike's behaviour in s5. First time I watched, there's emphasis on the laughs and angled to being almost sympathetic towards Spike. Each re-watch, the ick factor grew rapidly.

Buffy having no fall out or consequences in trying to murder Faith was another problem. Graduation Day pt2 at the time felt like a cop out after part 1

 

[November]

Was fine about Willow living rent free in Buffys house. Much less fine about it now lol.

 

[garfan]

Was fine about Willow living rent free in Buffys house. Much less fine about it now lol.

we don't actually know she was.

Post automatically merged: Jun 2, 2024

Buffy having no fall out or consequences in trying to murder Faith was another problem. Graduation Day pt2 at the time felt like a cop out after part 1

serously? You do realize she was about 12 hours from being there to help the Mayor ascend, right?

 

[Btvs fan]

we don't actually know she was.

Post automatically merged: Jun 2, 2024

serously? You do realize she was about 12 hours from being there to help the Mayor ascend, right?

I'm talking about writing your talking about in character

 

[Bop]

I don't know if this is just maturity but I want all the characters that I care about to be in a relationship with a normal human that's somewhere reasonably near their age. I would still call myself a Bangel fan because I loved their story and it does end with Angel leaving Buffy for her own good so Angel kind of agrees with me, but Buffy and Spike does not work, if I think about all the experiences Spike had across hundreds of years and most of which is unimaginable evil it doesn't make sense to think this 20 year old girl is the love of his life, or he's the love of her life. They are very different entities. Buffy should have been with a normal human guy- but not Xander because she isn't attracted to him, not Riley because he chose to join the initiative which isn't normal. Robin was a nice balance because he was naturally part of the supernatural world but he was otherwise a normal human guy, I'm good with Faith dating him. But it was disappointing to discover Buffy dating the immortal in Angel season 5. I've heard the comics retcon it but I only consider the shows canon.

 

[Nothing13]

I don't know if this is just maturity but I want all the characters that I care about to be in a relationship with a normal human that's somewhere reasonably near their age. I would still call myself a Bangel fan because I loved their story and it does end with Angel leaving Buffy for her own good so Angel kind of agrees with me, but Buffy and Spike does not work, if I think about all the experiences Spike had across hundreds of years and most of which is unimaginable evil it doesn't make sense to think this 20 year old girl is the love of his life, or he's the love of her life. They are very different entities. Buffy should have been with a normal human guy- but not Xander because she isn't attracted to him, not Riley because he chose to join the initiative which isn't normal. Robin was a nice balance because he was naturally part of the supernatural world but he was otherwise a normal human guy, I'm good with Faith dating him. But it was disappointing to discover Buffy dating the immortal in Angel season 5. I've heard the comics retcon it but I only consider the shows canon.

Personally (maybe I'm wrong), I think that Buffy (or slayers in general) need a "superman" as boyfriend and all Buffy's relationships in the show are wrong.

The hard facts are that Buffy is like "supergirl" and she can't have a normal boyfriend either. She needs a "superman", a human with superpowers like her.

1) Vampires like Angel and Spike aren't compatible because they are vampires (even with a soul): curse problem for Angel, too much age difference, no children, no family, no daylight, etc.. (even if Buffy wouldn't admit it, she would want these things).

2) Normal humans
Buffy can be interested in some boys (like Riley, Owen, Scott etc) or "fall in love" with them, but after some experiences and reflection, I think she realizes that it can't work. Examples:
-Sex problem: Buffy is too strong for a normal human, she can't have real sex with a normal boyfriend. How much must she control her strength in order to not break her boyfriend during sex or rough sex? (Example with Riley: Buffy needed to go to hunt in order to satisfy herself because the sex with him wasn't enough). Logically, the difference of strength is a fact, but the show never addressed his problem too much.

-The problem of a normal boyfriend: Knowing his girlfriend is out fighting vampires and demons, risking her life: What he has to do? Stay at home? Obviously not. However, helping her, sooner or later, he would probably have been killed, since he can't defend himself or being a liability (like human Angel against the Mohra demon), creating a bad chain of problems (Buffy blaming herself etc).


Obviously, putting a "superman" in the show could have ruined the "female empowerment motif", since a "superman" would have been stronger (physically and emotionally) than Buffy, but it would have been possible to create an equal relationship anyway, exposing the strengths and weaknesses of both parties.

 

[garfan]

I'm talking about writing your talking about in character

ok, but like the writing made the characters be in those situations

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Boyfriend; My understanding is that this issue still hasn't been solved.

Re: Black Cordelia: Eh, she would be played by Bianca Lawson, right? She's a pretty good actress, she could sell it. It was also Gen X, which had more relaxed attitudes about race.

 

[famicommander]

-Willow magically mindwiped Tara to make her forget an argument (about magic abuse) and then had sex with her. This is the magical equivalent of drugging your partner to make them more compliant. Willow is taken to task for memory altering in specific but never for the sexual acts connected to it, and she's forgiven entirely too easily. The show also goes out of its way to pat Xander on the back for not raping Buffy when his spell intended to force Cordelia to love him backfires. I found the scene really gross, with Buffy essentially thanking him for not raping her. She should be able to trust implicitly that he'd never do something like that; it should go without saying that there is no circumstance where he'd have sex with her without her full consent. The scene should have been framed as Xander apologizing to her for making her magically throw herself at him, even unintentionally.

-Angel fell in "love at first sight" with a 15 year old girl who didn't know he was there, kissed her at 16, and slept with her at 17. He's over 240 years old. Then he left her right after she turned 18 for being a kid and soon thereafter began another doomed romance with her high school classmate.

-Depending on Xander's age when they first got together, Anya could be a statutory rapist as well. Either way, 1000+ year age gap. Creepy and gross.

-Faith got a two-for-one when she used Buffy's body against her will to rape Riley. Also sexually assaulted Xander previously. The Xander stuff is never addressed at all and the show pretty much victim-blames Riley for getting raped and ignores Buffy's body being used for sex without her being present in it.

-Andrew and Jonathan were totally fine with Warren mind controlling, raping, and letting them rape Katrina until he killed her. It's unclear if the rest of the gang even finds out about the attempted rape(s). Jonathan also previously used magic to rape a pair of twin sisters. Neither Andrew nor Jonathan are ever taken to task for this, just for pestering Buffy, assisting Warren's crimes in general, and Andrew killing Jonathan.

-Nobody intervenes with Xander and the Mantis teacher or Buffy and Cordy dating college frat guys as sophomores until it becomes clear their lives are in danger. Willy suggests taking nude photos of underage Buffy and Kendra.

-The Cordelia-Jasmine/Conor relationship is gross and dumb in every possible way

Basically, the show does not deal with consent/sexual abuse in a good way at all, and that's before we even bother getting into the Buffy/Spike relationship.

 

[Btvs fan]

-Willow magically mindwiped Tara to make her forget an argument (about magic abuse) and then had sex with her. This is the magical equivalent of drugging your partner to make them more compliant. Willow is taken to task for memory altering in specific but never for the sexual acts connected to it, and she's forgiven entirely too easily. The show also goes out of its way to pat Xander on the back for not raping Buffy when his spell intended to force Cordelia to love him backfires. I found the scene really gross, with Buffy essentially thanking him for not raping her. She should be able to trust implicitly that he'd never do something like that; it should go without saying that there is no circumstance where he'd have sex with her without her full consent. The scene should have been framed as Xander apologizing to her for making her magically throw herself at him, even unintentionally.

-Angel fell in "love at first sight" with a 15 year old girl who didn't know he was there, kissed her at 16, and slept with her at 17. He's over 240 years old. Then he left her right after she turned 18 for being a kid and soon thereafter began another doomed romance with her high school classmate.

-Depending on Xander's age when they first got together, Anya could be a statutory rapist as well. Either way, 1000+ year age gap. Creepy and gross.

-Faith got a two-for-one when she used Buffy's body against her will to rape Riley. Also sexually assaulted Xander previously. The Xander stuff is never addressed at all and the show pretty much victim-blames Riley for getting raped and ignores Buffy's body being used for sex without her being present in it.

-Andrew and Jonathan were totally fine with Warren mind controlling, raping, and letting them rape Katrina until he killed her. It's unclear if the rest of the gang even finds out about the attempted rape(s). Jonathan also previously used magic to rape a pair of twin sisters. Neither Andrew nor Jonathan are ever taken to task for this, just for pestering Buffy, assisting Warren's crimes in general, and Andrew killing Jonathan.

-Nobody intervenes with Xander and the Mantis teacher or Buffy and Cordy dating college frat guys as sophomores until it becomes clear their lives are in danger. Willy suggests taking nude photos of underage Buffy and Kendra.

-The Cordelia-Jasmine/Conor relationship is gross and dumb in every possible way

Basically, the show does not deal with consent/sexual abuse in a good way at all, and that's before we even bother getting into the Buffy/Spike relationship.

Completely agree. 1 reason I'd say is due to the Actor/Actresses ages. Although playing school teens people viewed them as adults due to there real life ages. Sarah was 19 rather than 16, so her and David Boreanaz were shown and marketed as 2 good looking people dating each other. Charisma you mentioned was what 27/28 when she first started Buffy and she was meant to be 16 !
Now say if they'd put Angel with say MT's Dawn whose actress was the same age she was playing, people would've been repulsed.

 

[famicommander]

Completely agree. 1 reason I'd say is due to the Actor/Actresses ages. Although playing school teens people viewed them as adults due to there real life ages. Sarah was 19 rather than 16, so her and David Boreanaz were shown and marketed as 2 good looking people dating each other. Charisma you mentioned was what 27/28 when she first started Buffy and she was meant to be 16 !
Now say if they'd put Angel with say MT's Dawn whose actress was the same age she was playing, people would've been repulsed.

Attractive characters are consistently let off the hook by the shows themselves and the fanbase at large.

Angel and Spike in Angel season 5 are both literally stalking Buffy and discussing using magic or physical force to intervene in her love life. Ultimately they decide not to. Not because she's her own person and doing so would be wrong, but because they reason that she's smarter and stronger than they are and she'd eventually discover what they'd done and whoop their sorry manbaby asses.

 

[NotASlayer]

Spike's twisted obsession with Buffy in seasons 5-7 and how it is used to romanticise toxicity, abuse and stalking, and the only punishment Buffy metes out is a mild scolding in "Crush".

Completely agree. 1 reason I'd say is due to the Actor/Actresses ages. Although playing school teens people viewed them as adults due to there real life ages. Sarah was 19 rather than 16, so her and David Boreanaz were shown and marketed as 2 good looking people dating each other. Charisma you mentioned was what 27/28 when she first started Buffy and she was meant to be 16 !
Now say if they'd put Angel with say MT's Dawn whose actress was the same age she was playing, people would've been repulsed.

I got the definite impression that once S3 was over they basically stopped pretending anyone was anything but the age they looked, perhaps because the external guide to ages had been removed; unlike school, college covers a wide range of ages, for one thing.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Personally (maybe I'm wrong), I think that Buffy (or slayers in general) need a "superman" as boyfriend and all Buffy's relationships in the show are wrong.

The hard facts are that Buffy is like "supergirl" and she can't have a normal boyfriend either. She needs a "superman", a human with superpowers like her.

1) Vampires like Angel and Spike aren't compatible because they are vampires (even with a soul): curse problem for Angel, too much age difference, no children, no family, no daylight, etc.. (even if Buffy wouldn't admit it, she would want these things).


Obviously, putting a "superman" in the show could have ruined the "female empowerment motif", since a "superman" would have been stronger (physically and emotionally) than Buffy, but it would have been possible to create an equal relationship anyway, exposing the strengths and weaknesses of both parties.

Clark Kent and Lois Lane would like to have a word with you.... 😉

2) Normal humans
Buffy can be interested in some boys (like Riley, Owen, Scott etc) or "fall in love" with them, but after some experiences and reflection, I think she realizes that it can't work. Examples:
-Sex problem: Buffy is too strong for a normal human, she can't have real sex with a normal boyfriend. How much must she control her strength in order to not break her boyfriend during sex or rough sex? (Example with Riley: Buffy needed to go to hunt in order to satisfy herself because the sex with him wasn't enough). Logically, the difference of strength is a fact, but the show never addressed his problem too much.

Is this in reference to the episode Buffy vs. Dracula? (or am I missing another part from another episode?)
She later tells Giles about going out at night to hunt and patrol - stemming from an inner need/feeling to know of her origins. Her Slayer powers stirred something within her. I don't think it indicated Buffy not being satisfied by Riley.

-The problem of a normal boyfriend: Knowing his girlfriend is out fighting vampires and demons, risking her life: What he has to do? Stay at home? Obviously not. However, helping her, sooner or later, he would probably have been killed, since he can't defend himself or being a liability (like human Angel against the Mohra demon), creating a bad chain of problems (Buffy blaming herself etc).

She happily allowed Xander to patrol. All her other friends (discounting Willow later who gained her own magic powers) were mere mortals who risked their lives. Why would another normal boyfriend be any different?

Post automatically merged: Jun 3, 2024

-Willow magically mindwiped Tara to make her forget an argument (about magic abuse) and then had sex with her. This is the magical equivalent of drugging your partner to make them more compliant. Willow is taken to task for memory altering in specific but never for the sexual acts connected to it, and she's forgiven entirely too easily. The show also goes out of its way to pat Xander on the back for not raping Buffy when his spell intended to force Cordelia to love him backfires. I found the scene really gross, with Buffy essentially thanking him for not raping her. She should be able to trust implicitly that he'd never do something like that; it should go without saying that there is no circumstance where he'd have sex with her without her full consent. The scene should have been framed as Xander apologizing to her for making her magically throw herself at him, even unintentionally.

-Angel fell in "love at first sight" with a 15 year old girl who didn't know he was there, kissed her at 16, and slept with her at 17. He's over 240 years old. Then he left her right after she turned 18 for being a kid and soon thereafter began another doomed romance with her high school classmate.

-Depending on Xander's age when they first got together, Anya could be a statutory rapist as well. Either way, 1000+ year age gap. Creepy and gross.

-Faith got a two-for-one when she used Buffy's body against her will to rape Riley. Also sexually assaulted Xander previously. The Xander stuff is never addressed at all and the show pretty much victim-blames Riley for getting raped and ignores Buffy's body being used for sex without her being present in it.

-Andrew and Jonathan were totally fine with Warren mind controlling, raping, and letting them rape Katrina until he killed her. It's unclear if the rest of the gang even finds out about the attempted rape(s). Jonathan also previously used magic to rape a pair of twin sisters. Neither Andrew nor Jonathan are ever taken to task for this, just for pestering Buffy, assisting Warren's crimes in general, and Andrew killing Jonathan.

-Nobody intervenes with Xander and the Mantis teacher or Buffy and Cordy dating college frat guys as sophomores until it becomes clear their lives are in danger. Willy suggests taking nude photos of underage Buffy and Kendra.

-The Cordelia-Jasmine/Conor relationship is gross and dumb in every possible way

Basically, the show does not deal with consent/sexual abuse in a good way at all, and that's before we even bother getting into the Buffy/Spike relationship.

I think they'd need to readjust Angel's age (when he died as a human. Have Buffy as 17, going on 18 when the show begins.

Maybe build a friendship first, rather than a 'love at first sight' statement.

But it's interesting how the focus on age gaps falls on Buffy, when no one really bats an eye when it comes to Xander dating a 1100 year old demon.

 

[Nothing13]

Clark Kent and Lois Lane would like to have a word with you.... 😉

Realistically, even Superman and Lois are wrong, for me. Every superhuman-human relationships are problematics.

-Clark can't have real sex and let himself go with Lois (realistically speaking, not comic-book speaking)
-Realistically, Lois would be a huge liability for him, sooner or later, she would be killed by his enemies or used against him (and in the real world, the main character doesn't always win as in comic books 😉)

It would be more appropriate for Superman, a girl/woman with superpowers.

She happily allowed Xander to patrol. All her other friends (discounting Willow later who gained her own magic powers) were mere mortals who risked their lives. Why would another normal boyfriend be any different?

The show doesn't make sense. Realistically? The strength and powers of vampires and demons in Btvs were inconsistent also for this reason, otherwise there was no way, normal humans would even stand a chance against supernatural beings.
A single full power punch by someone like Mike Tyson, etc. Ufc fighters etc can knock out a "normal person", imagine a punch from a supernatural vampire. In reality, there is no way that weak humans like Xander, Cordelia etc (that aren't trained as well) can fight and take on even a single vampire as in the show. It's all bullshit in order to overhype the friendship of the main characters of the show.
They would have been all dead, like Jesse in the first/second episode (the fate of Jesse could have happened also to Xander etc.) it's only plot armor.

Xander can't even defeat Larry in High School, but he can fight and defend himself from vampires and demons? Yes, sure. Realistically, he would have been dead.

But it's interesting how the focus on age gaps falls on Buffy, when no one really bats an eye when it comes to Xander dating a 1100 year old demon.

Yes, the age problem between Anya and Xander is the same ad Buffy-Angel/Spike and similar couples. It's exactly the same reason no one care abut Anya's behavior towards her murders, and Scoobies behaviors towards her as well.

You know, Anya is a character with no deep that everyone forget talking about 😉 (despite ruining the morality of the entire show 🤣)

 

[famicommander]

I think they'd need to readjust Angel's age (when he died as a human. Have Buffy as 17, going on 18 when the show begins.

Maybe build a friendship first, rather than a 'love at first sight' statement.

No, they just need to scrap the relationship entirely. It doesn't matter at what age Angel was sired, he has been in the world for more decades than Buffy has been years. There is no way to do a relationship between a character like that and a teenager that isn't gross whether you wait until she's technically 18 or not.

Just like Anya and Xander is creepy and gross regardless of whether or not she waited until he was 18 (which the show doesn't specify).

 

[thetopher]

Add Buffy and Spike to that; anybody having sex with an unrepentant serial killer who specifically targets her kind is morally bankrupt and disgusting, no matter what the age really.

 

[Btvs fan]

Add Buffy and Spike to that; anybody having sex with an unrepentant serial killer who specifically targets her kind is morally bankrupt and disgusting, no matter what the age really.

You can use the same argument with Anya and Xander. That's even worse as it's played for laughs