It just crossed my mind that characters were treated better on Angel...

[sosa lola]

whenever they show us another leader, they show us how incompetent they are, an example would be Faith in S7.

You're right when speaking of S7 -hate this season! But other seasons showed characters in the lead and handling it very well. Xander in Graduation Part 2 and when Willow was out in S6, he had to take the lead and ordered Anya and Tara to head to the Magic Box. Willow was shown to be a good leader from time to time -especially after Buffy's death. Also, Giles had his leader moments in the earlier seasons.

 

[King of Hell]

You're right when speaking of S7 -hate this season! But other seasons showed characters in the lead and handling it very well. Xander in Graduation Part 2 and when Willow was out in S6, he had to take the lead and ordered Anya and Tara to head to the Magic Box. Willow was shown to be a good leader from time to time -especially after Buffy's death. Also, Giles had his leader moments in the earlier seasons.

you're right in some degree, they do show some form of good leadership, but its only in one of the 2 cases:
-Buffy isn't around to compete with their leadership.
-Buffy made the decision to make the other characters leaders in a small faction of their whole group, or maybe the leader of the whole group.

they give other characters some moments, but if that moment undermines Buffy in any way, they tune it down.

its not just about her being the better leader, but Buffy masks every other character's abilities in the show, especially her boyfriends, just compare Angel & Spike in Ats to Angel & Spike in Btvs, they were worthless fighters in Btvs, I know Buffy is stronger, but the way they show it, they're just another one of those worthless scoobies. the same goes with Faith, compare her to the Ats variant, she was shown as a real slayer, not a pumped up potential like in Btvs S7.
^^^this only covers how Buffy masks the strength of other characters, they also get more respect & better treatment in Ats. it makes me sad to blame Buffy, because I really like her.

 

[King of Hell]

Angel and Spike have never been friends, best or otherwise. At the very best, they managed to reach a state of mutual respect and tolerance in ATS Season 5. Even then, they were as apt to argue or fight as trust and cooperate.

-Angelus was happy when he met Spike, he said they were gonna be the best of friends, & would like to slaughter with him.
-they traveled together for decades
-they fight together like best friends, watch A hole in the world
-Angel meets Spike in WW2, still acting like best friends, & Angel refused to kill Spike
-"School Hard": "you were my sire, man...you were my yoda"...after meeting each other they still showed some kind of old friendship
-Angel: after the fall, Spider tells Spike that she knows they have a bond & he's not willing to admit it.

 

[Kelsey]

-Angelus was happy when he met Spike, he said they were gonna be the best of friends, & would like to slaughter with him.
-they traveled together for decades
-they fight together like best friends, watch A hole in the world
-Angel meets Spike in WW2, still acting like best friends, & Angel refused to kill Spike
-"School Hard": "you were my sire, man...you were my yoda"...after meeting each other they still showed some kind of old friendship
-Angel: after the fall, Spider tells Spike that she knows they have a bond & he's not willing to admit it.

I think they could be more or less friends in S5, but to say they're friends because they "travelled the world for decades" is stretching it. Angelus never felt any true fondness for Spike, and more or less kept him around to keep Dru happy. Angelus directly and indirectly tortured Spike, repeatedly proved that Dru loved Angelus more, and gave Spike a massive inferiority complex. They definitely weren't friends.

I think once they both have souls, they have a sort of mutual understanding and bond that comes from one, being together through all the carnage they created, and two, understanding the burden of being one of the only two souled vampires.

They're not friends, they'll never be friends. They'll be in love till it--Wait.

 

[King of Hell]

this is probably the way Angelus treats his friends, he's the most cruel character in both shows.
& I didn't say they were friends just because they traveled together, its one of the many other reasons I've listed.

 

[Vengeance]

Buffy is the leader on her own show. You're right, when other people lead it's because Buffy designated them leaders or she wasn't around. But that doesn't make the other people that led worse than her. It doesn't undermine what they accomplished.

I don't think Angel and Spike were worthless fighters on BtVS. Spike killed the demon in Get it Done, dusted a vamp (effortlessly I might add) in All the Way, helped out in Help, beat the crap out of Wood, helped out in Family, beat the snot out of the demons in Doomed.. etc etc. Angel didn't do as much but he still helped against the Three, killed Darla, helped her in Surprise, killed the guy in Beauty and the Beast, fought in Lover's Walk, killed the demon in Earshot, and fought in Choices, and probably some other stuff I'm not remembering.

 

[King of Hell]

everyone did something on Btvs, but they were severely limited, everyone gets to shine in Ats, as I said before the most obvious would be Faith.
& James Marsters actually said he liked his character a lot better on Angel S5.

 

[Vengeance]

If that's your opinion ok but I think plenty of people shined in BtVS. I'll give you Faith never did much but Wesley had his moments, so did Cordelia and Angel and definitely Spike.

 

[TheVoid68]

I noticed that BtVS tried to make an effort to show that only Buffy could be the leader. In Anne and Bargaining, the gang weren't nearly as effective without Buffy. In Empty Places/Touched, Buffy is removed as leader and Faith (inexplicably) fails, as apparently Buffy is the only one that can lead them. On the other hand on AtS, in Deep Down the team struggle slightly, due to losing over half the team, but get by alright. In Guise will be Guise, Wesley takes the mantle of Angel and in the end saves the day perfectly well. Later, the rest of the team split off from Angel and do just fine, and then Wesley does well as leader of the re-united team.

 

[Vengeance]

I think you're stretching it to say the writers tried to emphasize Buffy is the only one with the power to lead well. Willow leads in Weight of the World. Giles in a ton of episodes formulates a plan for the scoobies to use. Xander and Angel lead in Graduation Day.

Sure, they don't run around rambo style annihilating everything in Anne or Bargaining but they get by.. just like in Angel. Notice how they ended up needing Angel to save them in Epiphany.

In S7 yea they tried to show Buffy was the best leader by having Faith fail. But prior to that they spread the love.

 

[dan k]

Just to illustrate Vengeance's point The Scoobies hold their own and keep Sunnydale safe for a long while post Buffy's death. After Buffy leaves in Becoming part 2 they also hold their own so i wouldn't say they are shown to be helpless without Buffy. Its just that Buffy is the focal point of the show so i'am not surprised the writers made it appear that she was needed.

 

[King of Hell]

of course she was needed, my point wasn't that they were completely helpless, they helped Buffy a lot...but they get credit less than they deserve in Btvs, anyone with super strength or anything like that is underpowered around Buffy (Angel, Spike, Faith...), they become a lot closer to Buffy's strength if they switch to the Big Bad's side. & anyone leading instead of Buffy fails.
anyone who jumps ship to Ats, or guest stars in it, gets exactly the credit the character deserves.
Angel: the meanest vampire in all the land, most other vampires were afraid of him. not a wuss vampire.
Faith: she's a vampire slayer, we see her as a slayer, not a pumped up potential.
Spike: second most feared vampire in recorded history, he was almost Angel's equal, not a pumped up scooby.

^^^Angel did get to shine after the idea of Ats, I think the idea of Amends came to introduce him to the show or something. so the last few episodes of S3 gave Angel something, not what the meanest vampire should have, but it was enough to promote the show.

 

[Vengeance]

Xander gets a ton of credit among the fandom for having no powers but still contributing.

Willow is credited as being MORE powerful than Buffy.

Faith is left by the wayside.

Spike just a pumped up scooby? Beg to differ.

Anyone leading other than Buffy failed? What happened in Weight of the World?

 

[King of Hell]

Xander gets a ton of credit among the fandom for having no powers but still contributing.

Willow is credited as being MORE powerful than Buffy.

Faith is left by the wayside.

Spike just a pumped up scooby? Beg to differ.

Anyone leading other than Buffy failed? What happened in Weight of the World?

Xander? someone who fought alongside Buffy for 7 years? revived her the first time she dies! yet he's still the zeppo, & nobody appreciates him in the show.

Willow did shine in the show a lot, I won't disagree on that.

Faith was always portrayed as a LOT weaker than Buffy, she has the strength & speed of Buffy, but Buffy was the more experienced, thats it. Faith in Btvs was never like how she was on Ats.

Spike alongside Tara, Xander, Willow, & Giles having trouble taking care of 1 vampire? sure by the end he burned him down (bargaining)...but the 5 of them haven't outmatched this newly born vampire? this is the only one on the top of my head, there are a lot of other such moments, but this is the only scene where I actually said on the top of my head "WTF?", show him weaker than Buffy, but don't show him jumping on the vamp's back applying pressure & looking like a worthless townie.

 

[Primal Slayer]

This is kind of true but you also have to think two things:

1. Different writers

2. When it came to all of these charecters mentioned, they all got their start on Buffy where we saw them start to develop/in the developing stage. When they go over to Angel, they have already gone through the growth pains so they are already more mature by the time they arrive. And well Angel was always more adult than Buffy. Buffy was about growing up, Angel was more about being an adult and already being in the world.

 

[Kelsey]

this is probably the way Angelus treats his friends, he's the most cruel character in both shows.
& I didn't say they were friends just because they traveled together, its one of the many other reasons I've listed.

Right, but my point in general was that, despite knowing each other for hundreds of years, they didn't like each other at all during that time. As for Angelus being cruel to his friends, yes, that's a possibility, but I doubt Spike liked it all the same.

 

[King of Hell]

This is kind of true but you also have to think two things:

1. Different writers

2. When it came to all of these charecters mentioned, they all got their start on Buffy where we saw them start to develop/in the developing stage. When they go over to Angel, they have already gone through the growth pains so they are already more mature by the time they arrive. And well Angel was always more adult than Buffy. Buffy was about growing up, Angel was more about being an adult and already being in the world.

Joss Whedon was the main writer for both shows, David Greenwalt was the co-writer on both shows, though DG did have more input in Angel than in Btvs.

& about your second point, its not about character development, I've said it in my other posts, Btvs had an amazing flow of character development, its about non-Buffy characters getting the credit & respect they deserve. & that wasn't the case in Btvs.

Right, but my point in general was that, despite knowing each other for hundreds of years, they didn't like each other at all during that time. As for Angelus being cruel to his friends, yes, that's a possibility, but I doubt Spike liked it all the same.

not really hundreds of years, just a few decades, they were best friends at some point, 'till Angelus double crossed Spike & banged Dru, Spike held a little Grudge then, he got over it, until Angelus awakened the Grudge in Btvs S2. in Ats S5, Spike emptied everything he had on his heart on Angel, they got over it as soon as the fight was over, it actually didn't take long for them to trust each other. Angel & Gunn were never very close, Angel & Wesley were, but after he kidnapped his son, their friendship was destroyed, Wesley did earn Angel's trust back, but never the way it was. & since Fred died, I think the closest friend Angel had by then was Spike.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Joss wasnt the main writer by that time though. And charecters were given their dues more on Angel because they only showed up for a short amount of time so the writers made it their best. We didnt have to get a seasons worth of charecter development from these charecters because they were developed (which is a huge thing when writing a guest charecter, you just have to have them focus on whatever you want them to)

They didnt have to worry about all of Willows baggage when she guest starred. There was no Kennedy, no Buffy, no Xander. It was Willow by herself brought in to do a specific thing. Just like Faith. Buffy wasnt there so Faith could be mroe focused on as a Slayer and hero, and the same goes for Andrew. Even Cordelia was on her own now and didnt have any of the Scoobies to compete with and there were only 3 main charecters on Angel when the show started thus her getting more limelight and focus.

 

[Bungle Jerry]

Actually there was a very clear distinction between 'Buffy writers' and 'Angel writers', even if there was some overlap. Joss wrote 26 BtVS but only 9 AtS episodes. Jane Espenson wrote 24 BtVS and only 2 AtS, Marti Noxon 22 BtVS and only 1 AtS. But Tim Minear wrote 18 Angels and no Buffys, Jeffrey Bell 12 Angels and no Buffys, Mere Smith 11 Angels and no Buffys. The main overlapping writers are David Fury (17 Buffys, 12 Angels) and David Greenwalt (8 Buffys, 15 Angels).

 

[Willow-Tree]

Well, yes, but it's more so the characters treated themselves better.

The characters on Buffy, sans vampires, were really young. They were still learning and experiencing things... the only character who had gone through the worst on Angel, Cordelia, was Buffy, Willow, and Xander's age so that makes sense. Angel, Gunn, Fred, Wesley, Lorne, Lindsey, Lilah, etc. were all older and more experienced.