January 16-23 Episode Discussion led by Strawberryeve

[strawberryeve]

Innocence S2 E14 vs. Lies My Parents Told Me S7 E17

Mini-mini summary:
In Innocence we see the aftermath of Buffy and Angel's liaison. Angel has reverted to Angelus and begins taunting Buffy and the Scoobies.
In Lies My Parents Told Me we see the aftermath of Spike losing his chip. Giles teams up with Principal Wood in a conspiracy to kill Spike.

Oftentimes, on Buffy, there is a double standard for certain characters. For this discussion I'd like to highlight the episodes Innocence S2 E14 and Lies My Parents Told Me S7 E17. In particular how Giles reacts to Spike and Angel going evil. One thing that has always bothered me is how hard Giles is on Spike and how forgiving he is of Angel. Taking into account that the characters' relationships have grown over the seasons and the dynamic between Buffy and Giles changed as she got older, Why do you think Giles resents Spike so much and plots to kill him and but never has this same vengeance for Angel?

It's funny when Anya reveals, "Spike's got some sort of get out of jail free card that doesn't apply to the rest of us". But I disagree with her. It seems he is the one who is less likely to be forgiven of his mistakes while other characters, (Anya being one of them,) are quickly invited back into the white hat fold with barely a mention of their dalliances in the future.

At the conclusion of Innocence Giles comforts Buffy, telling her, "If it's guilt you're looking for Buffy, I'm not your man. The only thing you'll get from me is my support and my respect".

But in Lies, their relationship has drastically changed.
It seems he's lost all support and respect for Buffy's choices, in particular her choice to rid Spike of his chip and his trigger. While she merely acted, "rashly" when she had sex with Angel he calls her choice to remove Spike's chip, "reckless".

Buffy
"He's alive. Spike's alive. Wood failed."
Giles
"Well, that doesn't change anything, what I told you is still true, you need to learn"¦"
Buffy
"No, I think you've taught me everything I need to know" (shuts door in his face)

Ouch. Is Lies really about growing up and leaving the nest? Or should Buffy have listened to her Watcher (dad) in both circumstances, not just when the message was easy to take?

Interestingly enough, parallel to Lies, Angelus is back and Willow leaves Sunnydale to go re-ensoul him, somewhat uneventfully. Do you think it's interesting that Giles has no concern the demon who killed his lady-love has returned and is so vehement about getting rid of Spike? Is this truly out of concern for Buffy? Is he regretful of the respect, support and comfort he gave Buffy when it came to Angel and therefore feels he must be harsh here? Is Giles simply swayed by a very convincing Wood? Who is the enemy in these episodes? Do you see similarities between Jenny Calendar and Wood? Do you see any other parallels between these two episodes?

 

[This Year's Girl]

Good topic!

Focusing on one of the many interesting things: I think the reason that Giles might have disliked Spike so much has to do with the way they started out. First impressions are important and can be hard to change for some people. Giles and Angel started off in a pretty good way, Angel was good and wanted to help. That might've lead Giles to be more forgiving of Angel 'cause he had a picture of him as someone that was basically good.

Giles and Spike on the other hand didn't have a great start, with Spike wanted to kill Buffy and all that. 🙂 This might have led to that Giles had a picture of Spike as basically bad, so when he did bad things Giles was more prone to believe it was Spike turning back to his old ways.

 

[Icarium]

Interestingly enough, parallel to Lies, Angelus is back and Willow leaves Sunnydale to go re-ensoul him, somewhat uneventfully. Do you think it’s interesting that Giles has no concern the demon who killed his lady-love has returned and is so vehement about getting rid of Spike?

It would have been a little hard for Giles to be concerned about that considering he didn't know about it, IIRC.

It seems he’s lost all support and respect for Buffy’s choices, in particular her choice to rid Spike of his chip and his trigger.

Buffy didn't choose to rid Spike of the trigger, this happened accidentally and only because Wood tried to kill Spike. As far as Buffy was concerned Spike could have stayed triggered until the end of time. And here is where the parallel doesn't work. In Innocence Angel loses his soul completely by accident. In LMPTM Buffy shows criminal negligence in regards to danger posed by Spike's trigger. Not Spike, mind you, - the trigger. Spike might be the most redeemed and harmless character ever and the trigger would still make him a mortal threat. This is what forces Giles to take drastic actions. It has very little to do with Giles hating Spike or Buffy. Well, unless you think he also hated Ben and that's why he killed him The Gift. If Giles disliked Spike so much he could have killed a million times in S4-6.

For the record, I think Buffy deserves blame for not killing Angel in Innocence (and it was silly that it didn't occur that she could at least try to capture him) but "I can't do it" is a lot different than "He is harmless, trust me".

 

[strawberryeve]

It would have been a little hard for Giles to be concerned about that considering he didn't know about it, IIRC.



Buffy didn't choose to rid Spike of the trigger, this happened accidentally and only because Wood tried to kill Spike. As far as Buffy was concerned Spike could have stayed triggered until the end of time. And here is where the parallel doesn't work. In Innocence Angel loses his soul completely by accident. In LMPTM Buffy shows criminal negligence in regards to danger posed by Spike's trigger. Not Spike, mind you, - the trigger. Spike might be the most redeemed and harmless character ever and the trigger would still make him a mortal threat. This is what forces Giles to take drastic actions. It has very little to do with Giles hating Spike or Buffy. Well, unless you think he also hated Ben and that's why he killed him The Gift. If Giles disliked Spike so much he could have killed a million times in S4-6.

For the record, I think Buffy deserves blame for not killing Angel in Innocence (and it was silly that it didn't occur that she could at least try to capture him) but "I can't do it" is a lot different than "He is harmless, trust me".

You make some interesting points. I agree that Buffy wasn't super concerned about getting rid of the trigger. I was more highlighting the relationship between her an Giles and referring to his disagreement with and lack of trust in her decisions, mainly the choice to rid him of the chip. My issue is the compassion he shows when it comes to Angel and his anger and distrust when it comes to Spike.

I wouldn't say that the Trigger was de-activated by accident. The whole gang was trying to get to the bottom of it's cause. Wood had a pretty good idea from Buffy's reports and from Spike's "˜therapy session' that Early One Morning was what was Triggered him "“ Spike just needed to work it out. Wood knew how to bring the demon out "“ he just didn't know that the Prokaryote stone (or whatever it's called, 🙂) actually did it's trick. I wouldn't call that an accident.

Good point to remind me that the reason behind Willow's departure was not know to Giles or anyone else. I think it's worth noting though, since Angel loses his soul twice during the series (both) and they happen to correspond with these two episodes.
I, of course, disagree that these two episodes have no parallel. The relationships are very different but the passion behind what turns Angel and what turns Spike evil are very similar "“ not the same "“ similar. It is the reminder of love, passionate love in the case of Angel and maternal love in the case of Spike "“ the strongest of human emotions bring out the evil in either man.

I think Buffy loves both men and that why she can't kill either of them, whatever excuse she gives

 

[Taake]

But in Lies, their relationship has drastically changed.
It seems he’s lost all support and respect for Buffy’s choices, in particular her choice to rid Spike of his chip and his trigger. While she merely acted, “rashly” when she had sex with Angel he calls her choice to remove Spike’s chip, “reckless”.

I think at least part of it is that in season 2 he saw Buffy every day, he saw and could reason with her choices step-by-step. But come season 7 he just kind of suddenly dropped back in and had missed a whole bunch of little things so to speak that lead Buffy to making the choices she did. I think that's part of it, they had naturally drifted apart, I don't think it was disrespect, just a sort of miscommunication

(let's not forget that Giles was a sort of father figure for Buffy and going from teen to adult, 'breaking free' to make your own choices and mistakes usually causes a bit of friction in relationships like that 🙂)

 

[brinkster130]

I think the double standards are a result of what happened when Angel lost his soul in season 2. Giles experienced first hand just how dangerous a souless vampire with ties to the slayer could be and he was extremely cautious of it happening again. When Giles made the decision to team up with Wood's to try and kill Spike I think that had more to do with safety than him favoring Angel.

As far as Buffy's relationship with Giles, sadly at this point it is so strained that Giles believed talking to Buffy wouldn't be successful, so he did what he thought was right. I don't think Giles ever truly regretted the support he gave Buffy in season 2, it was what she needed at the time and as her mentor and father figure he was willing to do that even when he was hurting himself. I think deep down, Giles was just trying to protect Buffy from repeating the same mistakes again.

Another aspect that I've wondered about is the scoobies reaction to Spike getting a soul was. I always wondered why they didn't question how he got it and whether or not it was permanent. I wish there would have been a discussion about this onscreen, I mean if vampires can just go get a soul whenever they please it should really change the slaying game.

 

[strawberryeve]

Another aspect that I've wondered about is the scoobies reaction to Spike getting a soul was. I always wondered why they didn't question how he got it and whether or not it was permanent. I wish there would have been a discussion about this onscreen, I mean if vampires can just go get a soul whenever they please it should really change the slaying game.

That's an interesting point, I never thought of that, besides the whole, "can we rest now" scene - (awesome) But the Scoobs never really did care whether or not Spike went and got a soul. It was like, "big whoop, he's so annoying". and Anya, Anya made a comment about, how did you do it? but besides that, you're right they really downplay it

 

[patriot1123]

I think these are very different situations.

What Giles was forgiving in Innocence was Buffy's "rash" decision to sleep with Angel, which led to him losing his soul. She did nothing wrong and had no way of knowing what would happen. Giles couldn't reasonably have been anything but supportive.

Season 7 is a painful trainwreck for me. That guy who looks like Giles, but isn't, does a lot of things I can't defend, and yet, even so, it's painful for me to read things that are negative about him, or critical of him.

I read something funny on Tumblr about the difference between liking a character and loving a character. If you like a character and he does something you don't approve of, you think less of him. If you love a character and he does something you don't approve of, you curse the writers for making him go out of character. 🙂

I can't defend what Giles did in season 7 (either conspiring against Buffy to kill Spike or joining the group to kick Buffy out of her own house, SMH).

But if called upon to try, I would say that Giles had no reason to take Buffy's word for it that Spike was safe, and what he knew for sure was that, even with a soul, Spike had killed innocent people. His actions may be understood.

 

[Willow My Love]

I think Anya's comment was more so towards Buffy than the gang as a whole. Let's not forget, Buffy did try to kill Anya for slaughtering people, but Spike, she tried to help when he killed people. I can see why she'd say that.

I think Giles was right to hold a grudge against Spike. He had said repeatedly that if he got his chip out he'd kill people. He said that about Buffy numerous times. Buffy did get a lot of slack for being with Angel, and hiding that he was alive. I think Giles was quicker to trust him again because he'd worked with him so many times and knew that Angelus wasn't Angel at all. They were completely different. Souled Spike wasn't that much different from Soulless Spike, plus, he was killing without even knowing it. I feel like Giles and Wood took a much more logical approach to Spike.

What they were doing wasn't a personal attack on Buffy, but she doesn't see it that way. I feel like she only saw how it would have affected her well being to not have him around, instead of the fact that he was killing people and didn't even know it. Giles still showed care for Buffy. Otherwise he would have told her his plan. He knew she'd object. Flawed logic, I know, but logic nonetheless. I don't agree with his logic, I'm simply acknowledging it. I think he should have talked to her.

Buffy was so quick to decide to kill Anya, even though she knew how Xander would take it. Then she brought up how she had to kill Angel. Knowing she had to do what was right, I don't see how she could have made the decision to not kill Spike. She knew he was killing, and soul or no soul, she's a vampire slayer. She's supposed to kill vampires. Especially when they're killing innocent people. I think she should have had a little more patience with Giles. He decided to kill Spike just as quickly as Buffy decided she had to kill Anya.

That being said, I feel like they destroyed the character development they'd shown in the entirety of the show with s7. The gang, who had just professed their trust in Buffy a few episodes earlier, throw her out of her house in a very cold, heartless way, showing that was all bull[expletive] to begin with. She's saved their lives HOW many times, but they don't trust her because one thing got messed up? When Willow, Giles, Jenny, and Cordy were almost killed by the Master's followers, they forgave her and trusted her. Even after graduation day, when all those people died, they trusted her. But something happens to some girls they barely know and all of a sudden Buffy's not to be trusted? Also, I feel they ruined Giles' credibility and Willow's character in general, but I digress...

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Let's not forget, Buffy did try to kill Anya for slaughtering people, but Spike, she tried to help when he killed people. I can see why she'd say that.

Buffy tried to kill Anya not only because Anya was killing but because she had decided to become a demon; to kill of her own free will. Buffy helped Spike because Spike was literally unaware that he was killing and had absolutely no control over it. In fact, when he discovered that he might be up to no good, he immediately alerted Buffy so that she'd stop him, and asked her to kill him. These are entirely different situations, particularly where motivation and subsequent punishment are concerned.

Souled Spike wasn't that much different from Soulless Spike

The reason there were similarities between a post season 4 soulless Spike and a souled Spike was, first of all, because the former couldn't kill, and second of all because he started to change. To try to be a good "man." Souled Spike never wanted to hurt anyone. Again, what he did was out of his control. Saying that he is the same as William the Bloody just...I'm sorry, with all due respect... this just makes no sense to me.

Giles still showed care for Buffy. Otherwise he would have told her his plan. He knew she'd object.

See I think the fact that he did it in the first place indicates that he didn't much care for her or trust her judgment. In my opinion, truly respecting her or considering her well being would have entailed having a long conversation about how to best handle the fact that Spike had a trigger, and to ask her about her plans.

I don't see how she could have made the decision to not kill Spike. She knew he was killing, and soul or no soul, she's a vampire slayer.

Soul or no soul? But by that logic she should have killed Faith and Willow, too. They killed people and had souls. Buffy doesn't kill beings with humanistic souls even if they are confirmed murderers. Add to that the fact that Spike wasn't killing anyone intentionally and I don't see how she would feel compelled to kill Spike,(her feelings for him aside).

She's supposed to kill vampires. Especially when they're killing innocent people.

Buffy's supposed to kill vampires, yes, but vampires aren't supposed to have souls. And "soul" is where Buffy draws the line. She'll kill every vampire she sees but if it has a soul; if it can choose not to kill, (and in Spike's case, did not choose to kill), again, there is no need for slayage.

He decided to kill Spike just as quickly as Buffy decided she had to kill Anya.

One didn't intentionally kill, the other did.

That being said, I feel like they destroyed the character development they'd shown in the entirety of the show with s7. The gang, who had just professed their trust in Buffy a few episodes earlier, throw her out of her house in a very cold, heartless way, showing that was all bull[expletive] to begin with. She's saved their lives HOW many times, but they don't trust her because one thing got messed up? When Willow, Giles, Jenny, and Cordy were almost killed by the Master's followers, they forgave her and trusted her. Even after graduation day, when all those people died, they trusted her. But something happens to some girls they barely know and all of a sudden Buffy's not to be trusted? Also, I feel they ruined Giles' credibility and Willow's character in general, but I digress...

Now this I totally agree with, 100%! Basically season 7 made very, very little sense in terms of character development and relationships. *Sigh.*