Jasmine's big picture

[bloomyself]

So, I am currently revisiting season 4 and the whole Jasmine thing, just doesn't add up.

For instance, how come when she was body-jacking Cordelia, she was so malicious and seemed evil, but when she gave birth to herself she was all smiles and puppy dogs. I never understood that, since it was supposed to be the same person all along.

Also, what was the point of blotting out the sun, killing off Wolfram & Hart employees, and de-souling Angel? Was that all just to distract them and take off attention off of her? Why did she even need the Beast?

It kind of felt like they made it up as they went along. Does anyone know what was supposed to be the plan for Season 4 had Charisma not gotten pregnant? Because I heard it was still supposed to be pretty much the exact same thing-- minus the giving birth to herself.

I have to say, Season 4 is much better marathon style, rather than when I originally watched it during its original broadcasts over the span of 1 year. I remember completely hating it, when I watched it that way. Whereas, now I find it pretty damn enjoyable, even if a little bit weird. The Angelus/Faith arc was one of the best of the series.

 

[Tome]

So, I am currently revisiting season 4 and the whole Jasmine thing, just doesn't add up.

For instance, how come when she was body-jacking Cordelia, she was so malicious and seemed evil, but when she gave birth to herself she was all smiles and puppy dogs. I never understood that, since it was supposed to be the same person all along.

Also, what was the point of blotting out the sun, killing off Wolfram & Hart employees, and de-souling Angel? Was that all just to distract them and take off attention off of her? Why did she even need the Beast?

It kind of felt like they made it up as they went along. Does anyone know what was supposed to be the plan for Season 4 had Charisma not gotten pregnant? Because I heard it was still supposed to be pretty much the exact same thing-- minus the giving birth to herself.

I have to say, Season 4 is much better marathon style, rather than when I originally watched it during its original broadcasts over the span of 1 year. I remember completely hating it, when I watched it that way. Whereas, now I find it pretty damn enjoyable, even if a little bit weird. The Angelus/Faith arc was one of the best of the series.

To answer your question quickly, all of it was a distraction. She just wanted to gain time to sleep with Connor and then give birth to herself. The Beast and all that were just to keep Angel and co busy!

And from what I've heard here and elsewhere, if Charisma had not been pregnant(and Glenn Quinn not dead), the plot would have been kinda the same, except Doyle would have came back and teamed up with Cordy against Angel. We still don't know why they would have been against him, but probably because of something that resembled Jasmine's big plan. All of this ending with a fight between Angel and Cordy to mirror Buffy/Angelus in BtVS S2. 😉

 

[brinkster130]

When I first watched season 4 as it aired I thought it wasn't well written and planned out but after watching it a second time (marathon style) it was more enjoyable.

Blotting out the sun, killing Wolfram and Hart employees and de-souling Angel was done to create a distraction while at the same time creating mayhem and evil (which Jasmine enjoyed). Jasmine only appeared to be all smiles and puppy dogs as part of her manipulation scheme, remember when Fred was able to see the real Jasmine...she was all decaying and had bugs all over (Ugly!).

I too enjoyed the Angelus/Faith arc.

 

[Brandonxx93]

I hated the whole Jasmine storyline. I loved the Beast arch but as soon as that was done and over with they should have started to patch up that characters relationships and should have redeemed Cordelia's character. If that would have happen, I think season 4 would have been such a great season.

 

[VisionGirl]

I hated the whole Jasmine storyline. I loved the Beast arch but as soon as that was done and over with they should have started to patch up that characters relationships and should have redeemed Cordelia's character. If that would have happen, I think season 4 would have been such a great season.

Hmm....I agree with you (I'm liking everything about season 4 except Jasmine-well, I also don't like Evil Cordy), but what would they have done with Charisma's pregnancy? It would've been difficult to hide it at that point.

 

[MRNewman]

Jasmine wanted to control everything. In order to ensure that it happened - she threw a lot of curve balls along the way to ensure that her plan came into fruition. Again, seeing this as a marathon, you get the bigger picture better. Seeing the episodes slowly and individually it's harder to see.

 

[Brandonxx93]

Hmm....I agree with you (I'm liking everything about season 4 except Jasmine-well, I also don't like Evil Cordy), but what would they have done with Charisma's pregnancy? It would've been difficult to hide it at that point.

Yeah it would have been hard to hide her pregnancy. But it could have been done. Other shows have worked a way around pregnant cast members.

 

[Ojuice5001]

For instance, how come when she was body-jacking Cordelia, she was so malicious and seemed evil, but when she gave birth to herself she was all smiles and puppy dogs. I never understood that, since it was supposed to be the same person all along.

Yeah, just by watching the episodes, I found this to be very unclear. I didn't realize at first that I was supposed to accept that Jasmine of "Shiny Happy People" was supposed to be actually the same person as the possessed Cordelia. So that she would have said, "There I was, a few weeks ago I was murdering Lilah and Manny and the others, and now, here I am, enjoying the joyous worship of my followers." But maybe it's not so strange if you think of it as being like the way a vampire's personality is so different from its human self. Then again, that's a bad comparison, since we're also supposed to accept that a vampire isn't the same person all along...I'm confused here. 😕

Also, what was the point of blotting out the sun, killing off Wolfram & Hart employees, and de-souling Angel? Was that all just to distract them and take off attention off of her? Why did she even need the Beast?

Yes, if she needed to keep Angel and the Fang Gang from coming after her, why use a complicated plan to distract them? Granting that she may want them alive after Cordelia gives birth to her--she and her allies could still capture the Fang Gang, and hold them until she has her full mind-control mojo. A normal person would have to worry about the loyalty of someone she just threw in prison for several months, but in Jasmine's case, Angel would have had the same absolute loyalty to Jasmine as anyone else.

Although, blotting out the sun might have been somehow necessary for the development of Jasmine's fetus. Maybe, just as the sun's rays hurt vampires, so it would have caused birth defects for Jasmine, and therefore she needed a whole city without sunlight to grow properly. Although, Jasdelia didn't really seem to have any objection to the Beast being killed and the sun coming back.

Killing Wolfram and Hart employees is the least unclear part of Jasmine's prenatal campaign: a straightforward attempt to weaken the rival Old Ones.

It kind of felt like they made it up as they went along. Does anyone know what was supposed to be the plan for Season 4 had Charisma not gotten pregnant? Because I heard it was still supposed to be pretty much the exact same thing-- minus the giving birth to herself.

I have to say, Season 4 is much better marathon style, rather than when I originally watched it during its original broadcasts over the span of 1 year. I remember completely hating it, when I watched it that way. Whereas, now I find it pretty damn enjoyable, even if a little bit weird. The Angelus/Faith arc was one of the best of the series.

Charmed copied the utopian storyline, with its arc involving the Avatars. And surprisingly, Charmed did it better, in that the utopian ideology was foreshadowed in a clear way, so that it made sense when it did come. The Avatars had a stage where they were beginning to build up their power and influence, and a stage in which they were ruling the world. And throughout those two stages, they operated in a fairly consistent manner. Contrast to the Jasmine arc, where, as you say, there's a lot of disconnect between the building-up stages and the ruling-the world stage. The Charmed Avatars arc made more sense than the Jasmine arc, for this reason.

 

[Dagenspear]

It was to distract from the pregnancy and Jasmine very un-Cordelianess, which he would've quickly and easily picked up on without all that crap going on.

 

[shadcat]

What I don't understand is when Jasmine, posing as Cordelia, unlocks Angelus from his cage. I understand her wanting him free to go after the rest of the team..but the second she opened the cage she risked dying right there....It just didn't make any sense. Then she just happened to get inside of the cage really quick before he could attack her. Had Angelus attacked Cordelia's body, Jasmine would of never been "born"...so that was incredibly risky of her. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[kittenpoker]

What I don't understand is when Jasmine, posing as Cordelia, unlocks Angelus from his cage. I understand her wanting him free to go after the rest of the team..but the second she opened the cage she risked dying right there....It just didn't make any sense. Then she just happened to get inside of the cage really quick before he could attack her. Had Angelus attacked Cordelia's body, Jasmine would of never been "born"...so that was incredibly risky of her. Unless I'm missing something.

The only thing I can think is that Jasmine being in (and being in control of) cordy, gave her extra strength. remember how she pushes connor and he flies into the wall at one point....maybe angelus didn't really pose a threat?

 

[shadcat]

The only thing I can think is that Jasmine being in (and being in control of) cordy, gave her extra strength. remember how she pushes connor and he flies into the wall at one point....maybe angelus didn't really pose a threat?

Ohh good observation!

But from what I gathered, Jasmine was pretty scared of being attacked a lot of the times. Unless she was faking it? She always wanted Connor around protecting her. I always got the impression she was really vulnerable while possessing Cordelia. Eh..That entire plot is a mess xD

 

[dexeded]

For instance, how come when she was body-jacking Cordelia, she was so malicious and seemed evil, but when she gave birth to herself she was all smiles and puppy dogs. I never understood that, since it was supposed to be the same person all along.

She had to pretend to be all smiley and stuff when she had been born as herself. She could be as nasty as she wanted as Cordy because she didn't need the support of all the people at that time, but once she had been born, she had to put up a friendly facade for the whole world peace shtick.

Also, what was the point of blotting out the sun, killing off Wolfram & Hart employees, and de-souling Angel? Was that all just to distract them and take off attention off of her? Why did she even need the Beast?

All distractions, smoke and mirrors.



For me, S4 would've been great if Cordy's character hadn't been completely destroyed and the Cordy/Connor ickiness had not occurred. Those two points alone bring the season down by loads.

 

[dan k]

I am currently rewatching season four of Angel and for me the Jasmine arc just doesn't work. Usually a storyline maintains cohesion and makes relative sense. There was no cohesion in this storyline. It was like the writers just made it up out of nowhere. The idea that the Beast, this incredibly powerful character was just there to distract people is absurd too me.

What's unfortunate is that many people dismiss season four simply because of the Jasmine arc. I was guilty of doing the same thing but after watching it again parts of season 4 sees the show at its best. The return of Angelus is extremely entertaining and for a period of about 6 episodes its fantastic television. His interaction with Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Faith was so intriquing. However from the moment Faith leaves with Willow and Angelus disappears the quality drops.

 

[orpheusxi]

I am currently rewatching season four of Angel and for me the Jasmine arc just doesn't work. Usually a storyline maintains cohesion and makes relative sense. There was no cohesion in this storyline. It was like the writers just made it up out of nowhere. The idea that the Beast, this incredibly powerful character was just there to distract people is absurd too me.

What's unfortunate is that many people dismiss season four simply because of the Jasmine arc. I was guilty of doing the same thing but after watching it again parts of season 4 sees the show at its best. The return of Angelus is extremely entertaining and for a period of about 6 episodes its fantastic television. His interaction with Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Faith was so intriquing. However from the moment Faith leaves with Willow and Angelus disappears the quality drops.

Although it didn't make sense I personally loved the Jasmine arc by itself. In retrospect it was the only place the writers could really go imo. After The Beast & his actions & Cordelia acting the way she was I cant think of what else she could have given birth to that would be as big or as threatening as The Beast. That's why I kind of appreciate Jasmine, but not the events that took place leading up to her arrival & how they tried to tie it into her.

 

[Ojuice5001]

She had to pretend to be all smiley and stuff when she had been born as herself. She could be as nasty as she wanted as Cordy because she didn't need the support of all the people at that time, but once she had been born, she had to put up a friendly facade for the whole world peace shtick.

I would say it's not as much of a pretense as you describe it, though you're onto something. Basically, Jasmine is so much of a control freak that as long as she's controlling the people as their queen, she really feels the kind of love she claims to feel. And this even extends to the people who she is about to control, or over whom she is trying to recover control (the guy in the mental institution, Fred at the beginning of tMB). Her hate only comes when she has lost control over the people: That's precisely why she hates everyone in the world after she loses her powers in Peace Out.

And the same factors explain why Jasmine is more conventionally evil when she's possessing Cordelia. It comes down, again, to being a control freak. She's merely cranky because she is in a body not her own and doesn't really control any of the people around her (except Connor, and minions like the Beast and Skip).

 

[Kana]

I would say it's not as much of a pretense as you describe it, though you're onto something. Basically, Jasmine is so much of a control freak that as long as she's controlling the people as their queen, she really feels the kind of love she claims to feel. And this even extends to the people who she is about to control, or over whom she is trying to recover control (the guy in the mental institution, Fred at the beginning of tMB). Her hate only comes when she has lost control over the people: That's precisely why she hates everyone in the world after she loses her powers in Peace Out.

And the same factors explain why Jasmine is more conventionally evil when she's possessing Cordelia. It comes down, again, to being a control freak. She's merely cranky because she is in a body not her own and doesn't really control any of the people around her (except Connor, and minions like the Beast and Skip).

This is the most popular theory, but an alternative is that Jasmine really did the love the world and couldn't bare to think of humans determining their own fate and by killing them, she is simply attempting to euthanize the human race. This is possible but that said, her tone was somewhat cutting, but she could have just been angry that Angel destroyed everything that she was trying to create.

As humans we can't get past our own egos. We'd rather die painful deaths than give up our notions of free will and human dignity.

Here's the rub, how much free will do we have? OK what if we had a model whereby we do have free will but our nature strongly influences our choices? This seems to work in terms of vampirism and the lack of soul, so what if Jasmine was merely another powerful influence and we still had free will, just not the sort of free will that would lead us to pain and self-destruction?

If you want my personal opinion, I do think Jasmine was a bit a control freak but that doesn't contradict the notion that she actually, in her own way wants to make this world a better place. The problem is that any hero or champion (as Ats likes to label them) has to make decisions make decisions to a certain degree that they know best. Generally speaking Buffy has been let off the hook for such decisions (at least assuming that most humans want live relatively pain free lives) more so than Angel has.

 

[kittenpoker]

I believe Jasmine may very well have loved the world. But she loved herself more. I honestly think in her mind, she may very hell have experienced her emotions and motivations as love and compassion. But I think we can learn a lot from what the bug guy says of his world's experience with jasmine.... that she came, brought about perfect peace, and then left in search of more worlds to bring peace to. Leaving the bug people with an eternal sense of longing.

Because what jasmine really wants is complete and total adoration. She wants a perfect peace in which she is at the center. And, I think, for her, there will never be enough adoration. She will always seek more.

 

[SlayerFest]

Blotting out the sun, killing Wolfram and Hart employees and de-souling Angel was done to create a distraction while at the same time creating mayhem and evil (which Jasmine enjoyed).

I don't believe that she liked being evil or doing evil. She was a rogue member of the PTB. She seemed crazed but I think she believed that she was doing good, in her own warped and twisted way. She felt that eating a few people was okay, because by doing so she'd save billions of lives in the process. I think she thought that what she was doing was good. She had to do awful things to get there...but ultimately the outcome was going to be so great that it wouldn't matter.

Her goal was world peace after all. Although I'd rather have murder and disease than a lack of free will. Is that selfish? Yikes.