Jesse

Actually, I was sort of expecting SOMEBODY to get turned, but I was kinda hoping it would be the loser in the velvet sport coat. I mean, what kind of name for a character in an action/fantasy series is "Angel," anyhow. Just goes to show what I know...
 
Tueuse de Vampires
Tueuse de Vampires
Lol, that really made me laugh
E
eunsoma
ROFL at his velvet coat yuck!!
No, but in hindsight, Jesse's turning really bothered me. Buffy said something like, "It's not Jesse." Well, I'm not so sure. Hanging out in the Buffyverse with the fanged four and with Harmony has led me to wonder if vamps can't be rehabilitated to some extent. Angel's soul, Spike's chip, Darla's pregnancy, and Harmony's job all served to temper their appetites. To a greater or lesser extent according to each vamp's particular nature and circumstance, they were each able to learn to live on pig's blood and to function in the human world. I think vamp = evil is jumping the gun a little bit. I get that they pose a threat and that Buffy's got a sacred mission and all of that. I'm just saying that when it happens to a friend or loved one, I think they might be able to magic out a compromise that doesn't involve dusting. Of course, to be fair, in each instance (with the exception of Harmony), Buffy and co. thought that what was done to the vamps to temper their appetites was wrong.

I don't know. I just think there's a little more gray area than the gang wants to think about. A vamp is a hybrid. So he's part demon, but he's also part Jesse. Jesse's still in there, he's just lost his moral compass so to speak.
 
T
tommy
Interesting points. I didn't see the thread going in that direction.
palabravampiress said:
No, but in hindsight, Jesse's turning really bothered me. Buffy said something like, "It's not Jesse." Well, I'm not so sure. Hanging out in the Buffyverse with the fanged four and with Harmony has led me to wonder if vamps can't be rehabilitated to some extent. Angel's soul, Spike's chip, Darla's pregnancy, and Harmony's job all served to temper their appetites. To a greater or lesser extent according to each vamp's particular nature and circumstance, they were each able to learn to live on pig's blood and to function in the human world. I think vamp = evil is jumping the gun a little bit. I get that they pose a threat and that Buffy's got a sacred mission and all of that. I'm just saying that when it happens to a friend or loved one, I think they might be able to magic out a compromise that doesn't involve dusting. Of course, to be fair, in each instance (with the exception of Harmony), Buffy and co. thought that what was done to the vamps to temper their appetites was wrong.

I don't know. I just think there's a little more gray area than the gang wants to think about. A vamp is a hybrid. So he's part demon, but he's also part Jesse. Jesse's still in there, he's just lost his moral compass so to speak.
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I agree about what you said about vampires not always being lost causes but when Jesse was turned Buffy and the gang knew nothing of souls or chips or anything like that. It was still very balck and white for them when it came to vamps, untill about 5 episodes later anyway!!
 
Yeah, I do agree it is an entirely gray area where vampires are concerned. But I think it makes it easier for the scoobies to consider vampires (with obvious exceptions of ensouled vampires- or chipped ones as it were) in a black and white way because to think too much on the gray reality could drive them crazy- to consider it as 'i have to kill my friend'. It's a lot easier for them emotionally to see it is 'not your friend. you're looking at the thing that killed him'. We all tell ourselves little lies to keep ourselves sane after all...
 
But then we have the moral dilemma. The Scoobies know that vamps can be 'rehabilitated' for lack of a better word, is it right that they don't give each vampire a fighting chance? If they did try to save em all as it were, would it turn into some kinda farce like the Iniative? If they did decide to do it, how? Its hardly right to return every vamp it's soul, essentially ripping that soul out of Paradise like Buffy and I love Angel and all but does the world need a race of Brooders?

Oh I have too many questions!!
 
Hmm...I think there in lies the need for the simple black and white world. I think, potentially, the scoobies could view rehabilitating all vampires as in essence playing god. All vampires that turned good, had it happen to them through a twist of fate; as though it were meant to be. Maybe the scoobies feel they should leave that all to the PTB and carrying on dusting until told to stop. I mean potential for good or not they (vampires, I mean, not the scoobies) are killing humans and the slayerettes have to fight the good fight, but you have to wonder if a loved one was turned (Giles, Xander, Joyce, Willow...any of them really) would they do what Giles ordered Jesse to do in The Harvest. That there was no going back; he had to kill the demon. Or would they ensoul that person/vampire? Perhaps add Mohra blood and baddabingbaddaboom- humanness?
And didn't Giles say in the episode 'Angel' 'its a demon at the core. there is no half way'. That was when he was Watcher Man so maybe the whole 'vampires are bad. go deadness for the vampires' is in fact a council party line that Giles was fed? I mean, he never really gets rid of that training (brainwashing, you name it) because in season 7 he still believes Spike to be dangerous despite having a soul
 
I think he believed Spike to be dangerous ,well because he was. At the time the The First was controlling him and he was killing, you can't really blame him for being apprehensive after Spike realised what the trigger was, it was still very uncertain whether Spike would continue to be a threat. I dunno maybe it's just Giles himself, becuase Wesley didn't hold that opinion of Angel for long, but then again Angel didn't snap the love of Wesley's life neck. I think that everything about the Scoobies world is very grey but in order to make it work they have to keep it simple. Fire Bad,Tree Pretty.
 
I think everyone has some great ideas and insights about this. Once more I come back to the writers. In order to set up the grey area, we first had to know where the black and white was. If we hadn't been told over and over that vampires (and other bad things) are evil, bad, nasty, pointy, bitey ones, I don't think the times that Buffy and other characters delve into the grey area with Angel, Ampata, Spike, Oz, etc. would have had as much impact. We would have been all, so what? But since we've been told that these supernatural things are naturally bad and evil, it gave another level of depth to the relationships and choices.
 
I agree that the scoobies kind of have to simplify everything in order to do their jobs. I even agree that they had no idea about the possibility of vampires not killing humans and subsisting on animal blood when Jesse was turned. Only Giles would have had any experience with magic at that point, and like someone else said, his watcher training (and his background in evil magic) certainly never presented magic as an option for rehabilitating vamps. You're right about the Initiative, too. I mean, at some point, taking creatures off the street and trying to alter their nature does become ethically questionable. But none of that means that we, the audience, can't see the gray area there and wonder. The tragedy of Jesse's death seems to be that it happened so early. Had he been a major character for much longer, the gang probably could have done something to at least try to save him.

I read a fan fiction once that sort of dealt with this issue. Not with Jesse, though. In the fan fiction, Buffy had kids. Drusilla turned up as, like, the scariest villain imaginable and seduced and turned the grown son. As the folks with the most experience in such matters, Angel and Spike tried to rehabilitate the son, but, tragically, he was a lost cause. In the story, the son was still himself, but he was sort of like you might expect a mental patient to be (depending on the condition). Without a soul, every minor childhood issue sort of sprang loose from its confines and mushroomed into a giant issue. Questions about why his mother remained young and beautiful and sexually attractive (in this story, she did come back "wrong" -- as in, immortal) bloomed into sexual desire, which completely freaked him out as well as Buffy. He also became paranoid, convinced that everyone was out to get him. He knew right from wrong on an intellectual level - because he remembered it - but he couldn't reconcile that with his ravenous appetite for human blood. Trying to live as he had before drove him more and more insane. He was twitchy and on edge all the time, especially on routine errands like a trip to the mall. Eventually, Drusilla came to collect her new boy, and the two of them went on a killing spree. I don't remember how it ended, but I'm pretty sure that Buffy had to kill her own son and Spike had to kill Dru (Angel, meanwhile was romancing Buffy's other kid, a girl, which was another level of creepy).

It was a disturbing story, but it was an interesting take on the idea of rehabilitating vampires. The story seemed to suggest that you can't make a vampire change, especially not right away. It seemed to say that time and magic and fate are all required and, also, that being a vamp is no picnic for the person still trapped inside and dealing with all of these foreign and evil urges.

If I could remember the name of the story, I'd post a link, but it's been a long time since I read it. Sorry about that.
 
J
Joyce Summers
That story sounds really good actually, and I agree with a lot of the points you made about how, when, whether-or-not on the vampire rehab
So, when turned into a vampire, the person is supposed to be dead and you have a demon with that person's memories. Angel has switched back and forth between soul and no soul, and you can see that Angel and the demon Angelus are disgusted by the things the other one has done, because they have a shared memory but different personalities. They made it more complicated in Angel Season 4 by saying only Angelus remembers important information about The Beast. Maybe there was magic involved there, I forget.

Harmony as a vampire was a killer, but she was able to control herself with the threat that she herself would be killed if she bit a human. Take that away and she would probably kill again. Buffy believed that Spike's chip was just holding him back but he was still evil. I guess love also had the same effect on him; if he had never met Buffy he would still be a terrible killer - his love for Buffy was stronger than his demon desires to the extent that the demon would procure a soul, essentially destroying itself, to prove its love.
 
Was I annoyed? No. Did I expect it? Yes.

No Jess, specifically, but someone was gonna get killed. And, imo, Jesse was the most distant of the group. I thought either Cordy or Jesse was gonna bite the dust (pun intended).
 
I didn't think it really mattered, because it was better with a core four than a core five, Jesse just didn't fit in, really. The main way I knew it would probably be him who got turned was, he seemed stupid and wasn't in the opening credits 😛
 
Buffy obsessed fan said:
I didn't think it really mattered, because it was better with a core four than a core five, Jesse just didn't fit in, really. The main way I knew it would probably be him who got turned was, he seemed stupid and wasn't in the opening credits 😛
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Either was Angel and he didn't seem anymore stupid than Xander. For the scenes that he was in with Buffy, Willow and Xander he acted very chummy with the gang.
 
Ya but it still wasn't the same. Something about Jesse...I don't think there are many people who missed him.
 
I was kind of relieved when Jesse was turned.
It was, like, phew, I don't need to deal with him anymore.
He was kind of annoying.

Still, I did feel for Xander.
But, I knew he couldn't be part of the Scoobies. He just .. wasn't a good enough character.
 
Maybe poor Jesse needed more time to make us like him :lol:

I felt bad for Xander, too. Giles' "The person you're looking at is not your friend. It's the thing that killed him." surely explains Xander's angry feelings about vampires.
 
sosa lola said:
Maybe poor Jesse needed more time to make us like him :lol:

I felt bad for Xander, too. Giles' "The person you're looking at is not your friend. It's the thing that killed him." surely explains Xander's angry feelings about vampires.
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Yes, it does. But the sad part is that, after years of meeting vamps, we know it's not 100% true. Jesse was in there somewhere. That's why he danced with Cordy. That's why he wanted to keep Cordy for himself. Vampire William still loved his mum. Vampire Dru was still crazy. Vampire Liam still hated his dad. And maybe that's why Xander can't accept Spike and Angel as souled or chipped or whatever they are at any given time. Maybe if he accepts that vampires are more than just demons wearing friends' corpses for clothes, then he'll have to accept that he killed one of his best friends.
 
palabravampiress said:
Yes, it does. But the sad part is that, after years of meeting vamps, we know it's not 100% true. Jesse was in there somewhere. That's why he danced with Cordy. That's why he wanted to keep Cordy for himself. Vampire William still loved his mum. Vampire Dru was still crazy. Vampire Liam still hated his dad. And maybe that's why Xander can't accept Spike and Angel as souled or chipped or whatever they are at any given time. Maybe if he accepts that vampires are more than just demons wearing friends' corpses for clothes, then he'll have to accept that he killed one of his best friends.
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Good point, Xander knows Demon doesn't necessarily= evil, his relationship with Anya proved that. He's seen vampires redeem themsleves, so repression seems the best plan of action, he doesn't have to deal that way.
 
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