Joss as "Voodoo Atheist"

I kinda like reading Jonah Goldberg. He can be really clever and witty, but sometimes, just...annoying and too damn glib, dismissive.

It was a good back and forth. And I think Jonah expressed some of my ambivalence about how organized religion was sometimes overtly dismissed, even ridiculed in the Buffyverse. Then some of his talkbackers note the underlying Judeo-Christian themes and ideas snuck in there quite a bit...and of course Firefly, with Book is interesting...

That discussion makes me think of Western egalitarianism and individualism always battling eachother. Your average contemporary Western person may be thinking something like "What can you do for me, Religion? I believe in something, but I wanna tailor it, make it unique for myself. You can believe in your own thing too, whatever dude. Forget about this organized religion crap! Fight the Power! Stick it to the Man!" Or something like that, lol.

I liked the guy that was quoting Tocqueville. That was interesting.
 
this person seems to be confusing athiests with agnostics. an athiest is somone who believes in the here and now. an agnostic is somone who hasnt made their mind up yet, usually in no rush to.

so somone who thinkings about taking up wicca but isnt sure would be an agnostic and not an athiest. but as he dosent talk about a specific example of this he dosent seem to have much of a point. other than he dosent like that he feels anti-church feelings are rising? in which case he'd be better off forming an argument based on facts and examples and less on newage hippy steriotypes.

as for what he says about Joss...

"But so does a lot of Hollywood's product. Traditional religion is often treated as a farce, but ghosts and goblins are all about. I'm a huge fan of Joss Whedon's, but he has some pretty serious skepticism toward religion,"

again im not sure what he's saying here. I don't know what Joss' veiws on vampires ghosts and demons are but i wouldnt have thought that he put monsters in his show because he thought they were real. as a writer i use science fiction and fantasy elements because they make a good story. not because i believe in them.

or perhaps he means he wants to see more films about things from his so called "Traditional religion" used in hollywood blockbusters? which again seems odd as films that are based on paranormal research such as "White Noise" take great artistic licence and are generally resented by those with a previous interest in the matter.

if he dosent like the fact that alot of people are voicing negitive views about organised religion [and you know, im not to sure he does!] then he should write about that. Not simply group steriotypes together and saying how bad it is.
 
Yeah, It was a fuzzy, vague little rant, not well-supported. I think when Jonah says "voodoo atheism", he's trying to describe someone within the traditionally Judeo-Christian West actively rejecting the West's concept of "God" as irrational nonsense, a cultural relic"”yet seemingly attracted to a vague pantheism.

And I guess he's stating his suspicion that many Hollywood types are attracted to specific spiritual movements for superficial, self-centered reasons. Cos it's "cool", or "edgy" or socially trendy. Or a perception that it's a way to gain personal power or "self-actualization" or material success or whatever (that mode of thinking comes up in certain strains of Christianity too).

I think he's saying that ideally, he prefers folks who are beginning a spiritual search from an earnest, honest position of truth-seeking for its own sake. Can't quite tell for sure though.

I think the way Jonah confuses the Buffyverse with Joss's personal beliefs is odd. There are dramatic, conceptual reasons for leaving "God" up in the air within the 'verse. It never completely rules God out.

Still, I'm fascinated by what this guy said:

Interesting discussion in The Corner today on Voodoo atheists. Of course, as with everything else in American life, Tocqueville predicted this would happen. Oh, he didn't use the phrase "voodoo atheism" but I think his understanding of pantheism is remarkably similar to the phenomena you describe.

Basically, democratic man encloses "God and the universe in a single whole." We lose our understanding of God as transcendent, beyond the world, and in effect make Him a part of the world. In other words, God can then be found in just about everything! We keep a vague sense of the spiritual while discarding the traditional categories of Judaeo-Christian religion.

Of course, this is because in the democratic age we are fixated on equality and stop thinking in terms of individual persons but generic masses. As Tocqueville put it, the "idea of unity obsesses the mind." Democratic man is pulled towards abstract categories that encompass a variety of diverse objects. The two broadest categories are "Creator" and "created." But even that differentiation is bothersome for the democratic soul! So we collapse even those categories and God and the world, Creator and created, merge into one. We find God in everything "” the Spirit pervades all.

It's an interesting idea, cos I'm wondering if maybe some reject Christianity partially out of a fear of losing autonomy, individuality. They turn to other forms of spirituality that feel more "individualistic" perhaps.

The thing is, theoretically you retain your individual nature within Christianity. In Eastern thought, if I understand, your goal is to essentially lose yourself completely, destroy personhood...not sure about pantheism...
 
the rant seems to be focused on the guys distress that being none christian is considered cool in some circles.

he's not complaining about eastern beliefs popularity so much as people reverting to pre-christation pagan beliefs the ones that christianity itself took alot from in the first place to help intergrate those cultures into a christian state.

For example in most english churchs today there is still the pagan symbol of the green man, and of course Xmas being moved closer to the winter solstice etc.

he may well be trying to describe someone within the traditionally Judeo-Christian West actively rejecting the West's concept of "God" as irrational nonsense, a cultural relic"”yet seemingly attracted to a vague pantheism. but he's just not doing a very good job of it.

i mean if actually had examples of somone taking up wicca or voodoo whilst calling themselves athiest then he might have a point but just stating his suspicion that many Hollywood types are attracted to specific spiritual movements for superficial, self-centered reasons. Cos it's "cool", or "edgy" or socially trendy?

Hollywood shallow and superficial? Nooo you don't say!
 
Figured this was a close enough thread for this...

The Existential Joss Whedon

Evil and Human Freedom in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly and Serenity

J. Michael Richardson and J. Douglas Rabb

ISBN 0-7864-2781-7
notes, bibliography, index
[224]pp. softcover 2006

$35
Not Yet Published, Available Fall/Winter 2006

Description
This study examines the major works of contemporary American television and film screenwriter Joss Whedon. The authors argue that these works are part of an existentialist tradition that stretches back from the French atheistic existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre, through the Danish Christian existentialist Sà¸ren Kierkegaard, to the Russian novelist and existentialist Fyodor Dostoevsky. Whedon and Dostoevsky, for example, seem preoccupied with the problem of evil and human freedom. Both argue that in each and every one of us "a demon lies hidden." Whedon personifies these demons and has them wandering about and causing havoc. Dostoevsky treats the subject only slightly more seriously.

Chapters cover such topics as Russian existentialism and vampire slayage; moral choices; ethics; faith and bad faith; constructing reality through existential choice; some limitations of science and technology; love and self-sacrifice; love, witchcraft, and vengeance; soul mates and moral responsibility; love and moral choice; forms of freedom; and Whedon as moral philosopher.
http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?isbn=0-7864-2781-7

$35 for a softcover?! Ugh. Sounds interesting though.
 
What I find fascinating is that Joss Whedon always explores religion in his stuff, well usually - even though he's not religious at all himself. I usually don't like to be around atheists because the ones I know ALWAYS try to shove it down your throat that they are atheist, that it's cool to be atheist, that I'm stupid for believing in God, but I can respect Joss because he respects others about it. Publicly, anyhow.
 
S
Schillaci
You believe in God?! Haha, idiot... Just kidding..(+)(+)
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