Help Joss, Buffy & Feminism

[This Year's Girl]

mayfever agrees: I was like that too! Thank God I realised I could be a feminist AND shave under my arms 🙂

I think it's really interesting that a lot of people (I'm not saying you do that, mayfever, you comment just made me think of this 🙂) use this as an argument when trying to convince people about the pro's of feminism. Like "not every feminist is someone who doesn't shave under their arms or doesn't use make-up". Ok, so what if a lot of feminists really didn't shave under their arms and didn't wear make up? Does that make feminism any less valid? No. The question should rather be why that sort of thing would turn people of off feminism. For me it's only another thing that shows that feminism really is needed.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I think it's really interesting that a lot of people (I'm not saying you do that, mayfever, you comment just made me think of this 🙂) use this as an argument when trying to convince people about the pro's of feminism. Like "not every feminist is someone who doesn't shave under their arms or doesn't use make-up". Ok, so what if a lot of feminists really didn't shave under their arms and didn't wear make up? Does that make feminism any less valid? No. The question should rather be why that sort of thing would turn people of off feminism. For me it's only another thing that shows that feminism really is needed.

I was just thinking about this too. 😀 We think alike, lol.

I think why people want to clarify that they're not "no shaving, no makeup" feminists is because of the terrible stereotype attached to it. But you're right- the stigma and stereotype attached to those personal choices is exactly why feminism is needed. Not every feminist has to be feminine, the same way it's ridiculous to think that feminists can't be feminine. I'm in full agreement that there certainly isn't anything wrong with not shaving or not wearing makeup. Some people act as if it's unhygienic or gross not to shave, lol! I know I certainly don't always shave, and my use of makeup is minimal. Those are personal choices, though and it doesn't make me any less of a feminist. 😀

ETA: I just wanted to add that in the same vein, my personal choices also don't make me any more of a feminist than anyone else. It's just the kind of person I am, hehe. 🙂

 

[mayfever]

I think the problem with radical feminism (i.e. the not shaving, bra-burning variety) is that many women feel left out by it. They feel they don't deserve to call themselves feminists if they still like make-up and short skirts and pink things, because radical feminism tells them they only do that because they have been brain-washed into wanting to please men and they are reinforcing the values of patriarchy.

I like the colour pink, I occasionally (on days when I don't hate my legs) wear short skirts, I feel great when a nice man tries to flirt with me (well, actually I feel great when a nice person flirts with me because my door swings both ways), I like high heels and I am STILL a feminist because I think it would be great to live in a world where people aren't suppressed or discriminated against because of their gender (and race, and class, and ability... and and and). Go figure.

 

[eponinethen]

I think it's really interesting that a lot of people (I'm not saying you do that, mayfever, you comment just made me think of this 🙂) use this as an argument when trying to convince people about the pro's of feminism. Like "not every feminist is someone who doesn't shave under their arms or doesn't use make-up". Ok, so what if a lot of feminists really didn't shave under their arms and didn't wear make up? Does that make feminism any less valid? No. The question should rather be why that sort of thing would turn people of off feminism. For me it's only another thing that shows that feminism really is needed.

Agree so very much.

It is true that radical feminists have looked down on women who are to "feminine", who shave their armpits and sleep with men. It is also true that liberal feminists who shave their armpits and sleep with men (and view feminism as being a woman and earning lots of money and working at a male dominated work place) have looked down on feminists who think that what you do in the bedroom and what your family looks like are feminist issues.

It is important to be able to be feminine and still be taken seriously, as a feminist and as a person and at work. It is also important to be able to not shave your armpits and not sleep with men and still be taken seriously as a feminist, as a person and at your work.

We need different kinds of feminism and different types of feminists. And we need to be able to stick together as feminists, support each other's right to be something else than a white sexist heterosexual male. But we also need to be able to disagree about feminist theories and strategies. (It annoys me so much when non-feminists say that feminists keep changing their minds/don't even know what they're opinions are/just argue amongst themselves, just 'cause there happens to be different feminist theories.)

(Sorry about the rant.)

PS. I <3 you guys. I am so happy this thread was started just when I decided to come back to the boards. (Aren't there like clubs/groups at BB these days? Maybe we could start one for feminist BtVS fans?)

 

[Goldilocks]

i definitely think you should read "Sex and the Slayer" it is really, really good. And it examines the feminism in the series.

 

[This Year's Girl]

We need different kinds of feminism and different types of feminists. And we need to be able to stick together as feminists, support each other's right to be something else than a white sexist heterosexual male. But we also need to be able to disagree about feminist theories and strategies. (It annoys me so much when non-feminists say that feminists keep changing their minds/don't even know what they're opinions are/just argue amongst themselves, just 'cause there happens to be different feminist theories.)

Yes, yes, YES. I so agree about this. I think it's awesome that there's so many different perspective in feminism, it should be looked upon as a strenght, not a weakness. I also think there's kind of a dualistic thinking going on in feminism and this leads to people thinking you have to confess your belief to a certain feminist theory and stick to that and only that. It's like you can't be both a queer and a radical feminist for example, when I think you totally can. I support a lot of radical feminist ideas and I love the idea about sisterhood (even if it is problematic, see further above 🙂), but in the same time I am a huge Tina Rosenberg fan, I hate hetero norms and think the whole concept of sexes is ****ed up. I don't see a contradiciton between the both of them it's just a matter of context and strategy. It's not like there's a clear and straight road to equality or even the same ideas about what equality is, and even if that can cause problems it's really exciting too!

 

[prophecygrrl]

😀 Yay talking about feminism!!

My favorite thing in the world to talk about, lol. If there's ever a feminist BTVS club or something, you can bet a million dollars and all the money in your wallet that I'll be there. 😀

I think there's something problematic about calling aggressive "no shaving, no makeup" feminists "radical", however. While I don't dispute their right to call themselves feminists, I don't think those beliefs are truly reflective of feminism in the first place.

I simply don't think that they constitute "radical" feminism. Aggressive, irrational feminist ideas, perhaps, but "radical"? "Radical" is a label that I would very much like to reclaim. For me, radical doesn't necessarily mean "crazy" or "irrational". It's about beliefs that are a bit outside the ideas of mainstream ideology. For example, I sometimes call myself a radical feminist because I believe in fighting against systemic patriarchy and kyriarchy as well as individual sexist, bigoted attitudes. Not all feminists recognize intersectionality, and very often I find myself in the minority when I speak about it. I quite like the label of "radical" in this instance. It certainly doesn't make my beliefs any less valid. It's just a description of my place in the feminist spectrum, if you will, lol. 🙂

---------- Post added at 01:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------

Oh, and i just wanted to add that when I mentioned "aggressive, no shaving no makeup" feminists in my post, I meant the ones who look down on other women for showing femininity. Not the ones who simply choose not to shave or not to wear makeup. 🙂

 

[This Year's Girl]

I have sent a message to Darla and asked if we could start a feminist group! I looked it up and all groups have to go through a staffmembers. Keep your fingers crossed! 😀

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think a big reason I wasn't willing to see the not so feminist sides of BtVS was because before I became a fan I thought BtVS was a really sexist show. You know, the whole "just a (normative) pretty, blonde high school girl running around in high heels and short skirts" thing. So when I finally looked fast that, I figured people who said BtVS wasn't only a feminist show just hadn't seen past that yet...

Never thought of that. I always so it in a completely different matter. That it was aganist sexism, because it was a small girl, who everybody would not take seriously, but could kick butt. She wasn't what she seemed to be - a pretty little girl in a short skirt, and that's the beauty, because now people can see that women are strong too, and they're not to be taken wrongly.

 

[Ms.Trick]

Oh, I just had a feministic-Buffian revelation!

On Monday I finish school at 8 pm, and it takes me quite a time to get back home. Even tough I live in quite a peaceful place, I never feel completly secure, because there are sometimes men who heavily stare at you in the tram when you are all alone. It got me thinking.
The only big advantage men have on women is their strenght. They are naturally built stronger and bigger than women (in most cases).
Strenght is the reason society has always been dominated by men, cause back in the days, they were the hunters, then the warriors...
So really, without that strenght difference, we would be all equal.

And I think Buffy shows well that we compensated our lack of strenght with different abilities.

First of all, Buffy. She's the Slayer. She's got the power. She can wander alone at night without really fearing being assaulted because she could very well defend herself. Just that is already an important point. Sure, we can't be Slayers. But we can learn how to defend ourselves, physically, and I think every girl in the world should be able to defend herself. It's not like a dream we can't access. We can do it, we are not helpless, we just need...to learn.
She is also a good example of breaking the patriarcal order of society. And even tough the society has evolved a lot about that, it still happens, in some countries, that women are completly dominated by men. I wish every girl in the world could stand up against the system, like Buffy did with the Council. But the problem is, Buffy is fictionnal, women who suffer from men's domination would have much more difficulties to get out of it. But still, it is quite a positive message of "We are not helpless, let's fight for our rights!".

I also see a good example in Anya. Buffy is more representative of potential physical strenght and ability to stand up for what you believe in.
Well Anya shows well that we can compensate our physical 'weakness' by thinking. She avenged thousands and thousands of girl without hardly moving a finger. I think it's more like a metaphor of the damages we can do with our brains. Like 'don't think you risk nothing with you, we can find other ways to make you pay if you misbehave'.

Willow is linked to spirituality. I guess it could go with intuition and a good understanding of things.


I guess my point is, those three character have all a strongest caracteristic, and to me, it means: Women might not have the physical strenght, but they have the brains, the spirituality, and can increase their strengt anyway.


I don't mean to say that men are stupid, or have no intuition at all, or 'Women are the beeeeeest'. I just mean to say 'We are all equal in the end, we all compensate what we don't have with something else, and because a girl isn't physically strong doesn't mean she's helpless'/

 

[Icarium]

I also see a good example in Anya. Buffy is more representative of potential physical strenght and ability to stand up for what you believe in.
Well Anya shows well that we can compensate our physical 'weakness' by thinking. She avenged thousands and thousands of girl without hardly moving a finger. I think it's more like a metaphor of the damages we can do with our brains. Like 'don't think you risk nothing with you, we can find other ways to make you pay if you misbehave'.

You really think murdering thousands of people is a good example of feminism? Anya seems to be an obvious case of irrational overreaction as many of the people she punished seemed to be guilty of cheating at most and in some cases just of annoying their significant others. And isn't Willow a better example of achieving results by using your brain? Or Buffy? Or even Anya but when she didn't have powers like in The Gift.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Oh, I just had a feministic-Buffian revelation!

On Monday I finish school at 8 pm, and it takes me quite a time to get back home. Even tough I live in quite a peaceful place, I never feel completly secure, because there are sometimes men who heavily stare at you in the tram when you are all alone. It got me thinking.
The only big advantage men have on women is their strenght. They are naturally built stronger and bigger than women (in most cases).
Strenght is the reason society has always been dominated by men, cause back in the days, they were the hunters, then the warriors...
So really, without that strenght difference, we would be all equal.

And I think Buffy shows well that we compensated our lack of strenght with different abilities.

First of all, Buffy. She's the Slayer. She's got the power. She can wander alone at night without really fearing being assaulted because she could very well defend herself. Just that is already an important point. Sure, we can't be Slayers. But we can learn how to defend ourselves, physically, and I think every girl in the world should be able to defend herself. It's not like a dream we can't access. We can do it, we are not helpless, we just need...to learn.
She is also a good example of breaking the patriarcal order of society. And even tough the society has evolved a lot about that, it still happens, in some countries, that women are completly dominated by men. I wish every girl in the world could stand up against the system, like Buffy did with the Council. But the problem is, Buffy is fictionnal, women who suffer from men's domination would have much more difficulties to get out of it. But still, it is quite a positive message of "We are not helpless, let's fight for our rights!".

I also see a good example in Anya. Buffy is more representative of potential physical strenght and ability to stand up for what you believe in.
Well Anya shows well that we can compensate our physical 'weakness' by thinking. She avenged thousands and thousands of girl without hardly moving a finger. I think it's more like a metaphor of the damages we can do with our brains. Like 'don't think you risk nothing with you, we can find other ways to make you pay if you misbehave'.

Willow is linked to spirituality. I guess it could go with intuition and a good understanding of things.


I guess my point is, those three character have all a strongest caracteristic, and to me, it means: Women might not have the physical strenght, but they have the brains, the spirituality, and can increase their strengt anyway.


I don't mean to say that men are stupid, or have no intuition at all, or 'Women are the beeeeeest'. I just mean to say 'We are all equal in the end, we all compensate what we don't have with something else, and because a girl isn't physically strong doesn't mean she's helpless'/

Personally, I didn't think the Slayer powers by themselves were supposed to be a sign of feminist strength. They did their part in reconfiguring the patriarchy and upending the stereotypical "men=physically strong, women=physically weak" line of thinking, but look at Faith in Season 3 of BtVS. She was physically powerful, but she was not strong. It wasn't until she started her path to redemption and started using her powers to save others that she became an honored hero. I guess what I'm saying is that reconfiguring the patriarchy is not enough. The real goal should be smashing it to pieces, and that's what being a real Slayer was about. That's what standing up to the Council was about. That's what destroying the patriarchal system of 'one girl in all the world' was supposed to be about. (Though arguments can be made that Joss kinda failed in that respect, lol. 😛)
I think your point about being able to defend ourselves is interesting. Yes, we should have access to those self-defense classes and learning about defense, but the bigger issue is the fact that we need them in the first place.

I agree that Anya is a good female role model, but for different reasons. Her time as a vengeance demon didn't make her a feminist fighter- while yes, she did exact her vengeance on behalf of the scorned women, very often the scorned women themselves also became victims. Cordelia was killed in the alternate reality she wished for in 'The Wish', the woman in "Beneath You" who wished her boyfriend was a monster (or worm, or something...I don't remember lol) was on the verge of being murdered by the boyfriend before the Scoobies stepped in to undo the wish entirely. The girl in the fraternity house in "Selfless" who wished all her tormentors would have their hearts ripped out ended up extremely traumatized. While Anya applauded herself for listening and acting on behalf of the women, her main achievement was destruction for ALL parties involved, not just the scorned women.

I think that Anya is a feminist hero when she fights back against D'hoffryn starting from "Selfless", however. She rejects a thousand years of being safe and cocooned in her vengeance demon identity because she realizes that it's wrong. It's also interesting to note the predatory paternal figure D'hoffryn played to his vengeance demons (typically discouraged and unhappy girls and women, if I remember correctly). Her ultimate rejection of him, even at cost to herself, was very noble. While Halfrek ultimately paid the price for her, Anya had no means of knowing that beforehand. After "Selfless", Anya's quest to be a hero without the vengeance demon powers and without the dependence on Xander makes her a feminist role model, IMO.

On a related note, there is an absolutely FANTASTIC essay on Anya as a humanist paragon here: http://eleusis-walks.livejournal.com/38215.html#cutid1

^There are some intersections with Anya as a powerful female figure explored in this essay. 😀

You really think murdering thousands of people is a good example of feminism? Anya seems to be an obvious case of irrational overreaction as many of the people she punished seemed to be guilty of cheating at most and in some cases just of annoying their significant others. And isn't Willow a better example of achieving results by using your brain? Or Buffy? Or even Anya but when she didn't have powers like in The Gift.

I have to strongly disagree with the implication that Willow is a good feminist role model though. Her abuse of Tara in Season 6 was disgusting. She erased Tara's memory and continued a relationship with her, taking away Tara's autonomy as a partner and a human being who is every bit entitled to her anger and emotions. Their continued sexual relationship could very well be seen as rape, because with Tara's memory gone, she could not give informed consent of anything.

 

[mayfever]

I don't think Anya is a good example of a feminist character at all, quite aside from the murdering thousands of people. Her song from OMWF that we didn't hear until Selfless, "I'll be his Mrs"? Cute, but I REALLY don't think so.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I don't think Anya is a good example of a feminist character at all, quite aside from the murdering thousands of people. Her song from OMWF that we didn't hear until Selfless, "I'll be his Mrs"? Cute, but I REALLY don't think so.

That's true, the "I'll be his Mrs" is problematic. Not that wanting a husband or anything is wrong, but that defining herself solely as "Mrs. Xander Harris" is not really very feminist. But a lot of her behavior for most of the show is problematic. She also doesn't acknowledge the thousands she killed or injured, very often lamenting the loss of her vengeance demon powers. A huge part of her identity in the Scoobies is based on her relationship with Xander. My belief that she's a feminist role model doesn't ignore all those things. Rather, it's because of all those things that I think her ultimate rejection of both D'Hoffryn and Xander is commendable, and her journey as an independent woman and person to be all the more poignant and, well, feminist. 🙂

And yup, I'm of the belief that the fact she did not engage in a formal relationship with Xander again is important to note in Season 7. I mean, they did have sex a few times and they both acknowledged their love for each other, but that doesn't mean she accepted Xander. I think a large part of her realized that formally getting back together with Xander would have been regressive.

 

[Icarium]

I have to strongly disagree with the implication that Willow is a good feminist role model though. Her abuse of Tara in Season 6 was disgusting. She erased Tara's memory and continued a relationship with her, taking away Tara's autonomy as a partner and a human being who is every bit entitled to her anger and emotions. Their continued sexual relationship could very well be seen as rape, because with Tara's memory gone, she could not give informed consent of anything.

This never happened as far as I am concerned. Denial rules. 😀

Seriously though, Anya has committed many times more crimes than Willow, so if the treatment of Tara disqualifies Willow then Anya shouldn't count either.

I think a large part of her realized that formally getting back together with Xander would have been regressive.

But literally begging Spike to have sex with her was empowering? Maybe it's because I loathe S7 but I really don't see Anya as feminist symbol. Heck, she barely qualifies as a character. Nine out of ten cases the writers just used her as comic relief. Her guilt from a millennium of murder is quickly swept under the carpet right after Selfless and that's about the end of her development.

 

[prophecygrrl]

This never happened as far as I am concerned. Denial rules. 😀

Seriously though, Anya has committed many times more crimes than Willow, so if the treatment of Tara disqualifies Willow then Anya shouldn't count either.



But literally begging Spike to have sex with her was empowering? Maybe it's because I loathe S7 but I really don't see Anya as feminist symbol. Heck, she barely qualifies as a character. Nine out of ten cases the writers just used her as comic relief. Her guilt from a millennium of murder is quickly swept under the carpet right after Selfless and that's about the end of her development.

Yup, Anya's not a saint. I don't pardon her crimes. That's why I think her arc after she rejects D'Hoffryn is so compelling. I really don't think she wears her humanity as lightly as others think. It's the fact that she takes that journey on willingly that makes me see her as a feminist role model. For me, Willow isn't a feminist role model because she basically raped a loved one and partner. It's the nature of the crime itself that is misogynistic and antifeminist.

And even if you disagree with me and believe Anya shouldn't be considered a feminist role model, why do you think Willow should be? Her crimes aren't absolved either, IMO.

And wasn't begging Spike for sex a cover story for snooping into his stuff? I haven't watched Season 7 in a while so I can't say I remember that exchange exactly. :/ Even then, I don't think it's necessarily degrading. She's quite a proud woman and she's still learning about how to properly interact with humans (or in this case, a manpire). I think she thinks it's logical to ask why he wouldn't have sex with her again.

 

[Icarium]

And even if you disagree with me and believe Anya shouldn't be considered a feminist role model, why do you think Willow should be? Her crimes aren't absolved either, IMO.

I didn't say Willow should be, I just meant that if one is picking role models based on them using their brains to help save the world (a lot), Willow or Buffy would be more obvious choices than Anya.

For me, Willow isn't a feminist role model because she basically raped a loved one and partner. It's the nature of the crime itself that is misogynistic and antifeminist.

Believe me, I don't want S6-7 Willow to be a symbol of anything good. The problem is we can use similar criteria for other characters - Buffy's love for people...er, vampires, who have tried to rape and/or kill her doesn't look all that feminist to me, especially considering her blind spot in regards to Angel and Spike has cost a lot of lives. Anya is basically a sociopath, Faith is a murderer, etc. And I am not saying a character has to be a perfect Mary Sue in order to be a feminist role model but I think Whedon went way too far in the other direction, which is why I have a lot of trouble even considering him a writer with really feminist characters and themes. He used to be great at it - back in the early seasons where research was paramount and Buffy and Willow often succeeded by being smart, not just by being the Slayer and the strongest witch in the world respectively. When Buffy not being able to kill Angel was clearly presented as a fatal mistake and she exorcised that demon by sending him to hell, not by deciding to sleep with him while he was soulless or something like that.

Once it came down to "it's all about the power" and "men suck", I think the show became both much less feminist in reality and much more preachily feminist in intention. The pinnacle was the Guardian woman who was supposedly the benevolent alternative of the Watcher's Council, yet didn't know Buffy's name and prior to that had never bothered helping her. Unfortunate implications much?

 

[SoBlind]

how about willow being gay? thats as much of a gay liberation as it is for women i'd say. guess it all comes back to open sexuality. she wasn't labeled from day 1. she loved oz and then she loved willow. wasn't willow and taras kiss one of the first on tv as well?

sorry if this was mentioned before. didnt have time to read all the great answers already given
🙂

 

[This Year's Girl]

For me, Willow isn't a feminist role model because she basically raped a loved one and partner. It's the nature of the crime itself that is misogynistic and antifeminist.

I think the same argument you use for Anya can be used for Willow. Yeah, Willow is far from perfect, and what she did to Tara was horrible. But that doesn't necessarly mean that she can't be a feminist role model in some aspects. I think you have to remember that a lot of things Willow did and stood for, like being a geek girl, kicking ass at a lot of maledominated areas and getting together with Tara was really groundbreaking stuff in television, and to be honest, it's not like it's gotten that much more versatile since, so it's still is.

And as you yourself stated above in the quote, it's the crime itself that is misogynistic and antifeminist. I.e. it's the action that should be critized, not the person. I think that's something people should try to see in general much more than now. I don't think you can disregard someones contributions to something just because they did things you don't like. The actions of people often mirror deeper structural problems that can be hard to distance yourself from, we are after all products of our context.

 

[SoBlind]

she wasn't labeled from day 1. she loved oz and then she loved willow.

eerrmm and then she loved TARA lol oh im confusing myself.

i think joyce fits it very well too. she's a working single mum.