Joss Got Overruled!

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* The 28th *
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Sineya
Joss Whedon, David Fury & Angel himself all got overruled on what Angel is all about! By whom you ask? The "great" Kelley Armstrong!

Kelley Armstrong says:
On Angel- "I think he has redeemed himself, between the work he did in the TV series and After the Fall," and has Angel say I've redeemed my past.

David Fury says:
"The point of Angel was always that the fight never ends. He'll always fight. It's an eternity of fighting. You can't ever win but the fight is worth fighting."

Joss Whedon says:
"Angel is really about already having grown up, dealing with what you've done, and redemption. Redemption is something you fight for every day."

Angel says:
"Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

So Joss, Fury & Angel say that Angel's path to redemption is a battle that he'll always continue to fight because it's not something he can simply win. Armstrong apparently overruled them all, she says not only can Angel's redemption be won, but HE DID IT! Mission Accomplished! Angel = redeemed!

She also overruled Joss on what is Buffyverse canon! Yay for Kelley Armstrong!

Joss says ancillary work (like Kelley Armstrong's) is great, but it's just like fanfic. Buffyverse canon is what he writes. And he pays "not very much" attention to the ancillary works since they're not canon.

Armstrong says:
Aftermath "will continue that storyline and subsequent storylines will follow from it. So, yes, it's considered canon." "it 'counts' - it continues the main storyline of the series"

An especially bold statement since she admits that Joss has ZERO involvement with her work except for simply allowing it to exist.

Boy do I feel bad for Joss, overruled on the series he created and currently owns... tisk tisk...
 
In the cases of Buffy Season Eight and Angel After the Fall, Joss had just about as much involvement with writing them as he did with the series. He mapped out the arcs and serves as Executive Producer, so I see no reason not to take them seriously.
 
But they will never be the legacy of the story. Beyond a crop of current diehards, the comics aren't really going to have much of a lasting impact whether they are said to be canon or not. Newcomers will discover this show years from now, and they may or may not ever even be aware that there even were comics. A lot of current fans don't even read the comics, and I'm sure there are casual fans that know nothing of them. In addition, if the opportunity to do a movie ever does present itself, the comics are too easy (and perhaps even necessary) to take back. The story would have to make sense to people who didn't read them, and probably be written around whatever age the actors would be when they made it. For that reason, I couldn't see them not ignoring the comics. They probably won't ever make a movie anyway, but it remains true that most people will see the story of Buffy ending with "Chosen" and Angel ending with "Not Fade Away."
 
Individuals will do what they please, but season 8 is the continuation of Buffy's story, just as if it were a TV season, and I for one wouldn't miss it for anything.
 
There won't be a movie. If there was I'd imagine Nick & Amy would be the only actors that would do it, and that would be a pretty bad movie involving two characters who don't even know each other, lol.

XANDER: Hey, you're blue...
ILLYRIA: Your one eye is displeasing.
The end

Spike & Angel couldn't be in it at this point since David & James are each over 10 years older than their characters should look. Sarah only does movies nowadays, and Alyson is super-busy between her TV show and films.
 
G
grrarg
Haha! Awesome dialogue!
The movie part was speculative, as I said. You're right that David and James couldn't really be in it. But even if others wouldn't at the moment doesn't mean it could be ruled out entirely. What was the last movie Sarah made that was even remotely worth watching? She's made a few completely terrible movies since doing Buffy and I imagine in a couple of years, she might change her tune. Alyson's supporting role on a tv show doesn't negate the possibility of her participation. She's not exactly a huge movie star. At any rate though, the point was never that they will make a movie. They most likely won't. The point was the comics would be tossed aside like nothing if at any point this franchise were to come alive again in any larger medium. And the larger point that the comics aren't going to be what anybody remembers as the story of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is almost not debatable. I'm a big enough Buffy nerd that I post on forums and I've never touched the comics. I imagine the percentage of fans who haven't is fairly substantial. That number will only grow once the comics are finished and meanwhile, more and more people will gradually discover the series. The series IS Buffy. The comics are a fine little continuation for whomever might enjoy them but ultimately, they don't really matter.
 
Revolver said:
The movie part was speculative, as I said. You're right that David and James couldn't really be in it. But even if others wouldn't at the moment doesn't mean it could be ruled out entirely. What was the last movie Sarah made that was even remotely worth watching? She's made a few completely terrible movies since doing Buffy and I imagine in a couple of years, she might change her tune. Alyson's supporting role on a tv show doesn't negate the possibility of her participation. She's not exactly a huge movie star. At any rate though, the point was never that they will make a movie. They most likely won't. The point was the comics would be tossed aside like nothing if at any point this franchise were to come alive again in any larger medium. And the larger point that the comics aren't going to be what anybody remembers as the story of Buffy the Vampire Slayer is almost not debatable. I'm a big enough Buffy nerd that I post on forums and I've never touched the comics. I imagine the percentage of fans who haven't is fairly substantial. That number will only grow once the comics are finished and meanwhile, more and more people will gradually discover the series. The series IS Buffy. The comics are a fine little continuation for whomever might enjoy them but ultimately, they don't really matter.
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Gonna have to disagree with you entirely on that one, I'm afraid. The number of people reading them doesn't change the fact that the comics ARE the continuation of Buffy's story, for real, and if you're not reading them, you're missing it. If you're OK with that, fine. But the fact is that the comics are equivalent to the TV show, they "matter" every bit as much. They are the medium Joss has chosen to continue the story, and there is no question whatsoever as to whether they "matter" or not. This IS Season Eight of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

The TV show was wonderful, and I'll always love to re-watch it, but it's now an artifact, frozen in time. The leading edge of the story is in the comics.
 
There are a lot of factors that will contribute ultimately to whether or not there will ever be another "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" movie made, but the question of whether either Joss or any of the original (tv series) cast will or will not be involved in the project is very low on the list. If the availability of a particular actor or writer were the determining factor in the making of a movie, there would never have been another Tarzan movie made after Elmo Lincoln gave op the part, never have been another Sherlock Holmes movie after Basil Rathbone, or never another Superman since Alan Kent.

We used that argument for years with "Star Trek." There would never be another Kirk or Spock, the fans simply wouldn't stand for it. Well, from all that I've read, they're not only willing to stand for it, they are for the most part looking forward to it Buffy isn't Sarah, Spike isn't James, and Angel isn't David. Other actors can play the parts just as well. Differently, perhaps, but just as well. And as for what we consider canon right noe, it's about as permanent as smoke.
 
white avenger said:
We used that argument for years with "Star Trek." ... Well, from all that I've read, they're not only willing to stand for it, they are for the most part looking forward to it
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All you've read? What about you personally? I know at one point you had trouble buying into the actors, are you doing better with it now?
 
Joss has never removed anything from the Buffyverse canon, unless you count the 1992 movie... and there really wasn't any such thing as "canon" back then.

I don't see anything impermanent about it. He's certainly aware of how important it is to have a common frame of reference.
 
AndrewCrossett said:
Joss has never removed anything from the Buffyverse canon, unless you count the 1992 movie... and there really wasn't any such thing as "canon" back then.

I don't see anything impermanent about it. He's certainly aware of how important it is to have a common frame of reference.
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I agree with you completely on the point that comic IS season 8 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Right now, it is as relevant as any episode of the show. No matter how accessible it is, it IS the continuation of the story. Not liking the format it is being presented in has no bearing on the what is canon and what is not.

However, what puts a different light on the canon of season 8 is Joss saying that he would scrap everything that he has done with this season to make a movie (if he could get all the cast and a willing studio). That makes the comic's position slightly precarious but until the day comes when we do get a Joss movie with all the bells and whistles the comics will remain canon.
 
Kean said:
However, what puts a different light on the canon of season 8is Joss saying that he would scrap everything that he has done with this deason to make a movie (if he could get all the cast and a willing studio). That makes the comic's position slightly precarious but untik the day comes when we do get a Jooss movie with all the bells and whistles the comics will remain canon.
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To be honest... I think he was saying that more for the benefit of the actors gathered around him than anything else. It was an "aw, I love you guys" moment.

We know for a fact that Season 8 is the story Joss wanted to tell regarding what happened after "Chosen." He also wanted to link up the TV series with "Fray." This wasn't just a story he pulled out of his butt to fill up comic pages. With Season 8 performing such a specific and important role in the story, I sincerely doubt he'd just scrap it.

Joss has said flat-out there isn't going to be a movie in the forseeable future. If he gets the funding for a theatrical movie now, it's not gonna be a Buffy one. If there ever is one, it will probably be 15-20 years from now when Hollywood gets around to recycling it, like it does everything else. When that happens it will probably be a "back to the beginning" affair with an entirely different cast. Maybe Sarah will be cast as Joyce.
 
AndrewCrossett said:
Joss has said flat-out there isn't going to be a movie in the forseeable future. If he gets the funding for a theatrical movie now, it's not gonna be a Buffy one. If there ever is one, it will probably be 15-20 years from now when Hollywood gets around to recycling it, like it does everything else. When that happens it will probably be a "back to the beginning" affair with an entirely different cast. Maybe Sarah will be cast as Joyce.
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^^ THAT, is the very last thing I want. I shudder even thinking about it. If in 20 years time they try and redo Buffy from the beginning I'll pitch a fit. The story has already been told...perfectly, we do not need some gobshite coming along and ruining it.

I am quite content to carry on as is with the comics and never get a Buffy movie, because quite frankly, unless it is the full cast and the original writers I don't even want to know about it.
 
AndrewCrossett
AndrewCrossett
That's how I feel about it too
I am going to have to agree with my man andycrosett, doesnt matter if you dont read them or how much you hate the comics. They are considered canon and ARE a continuation of the Buffy story.
 
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