Joss Quits Twitter

[The Bronze]

He only joined to plug a film. He gave it a go, found it to be full of aggressive and unpleasant people so he left. It makes sense to me. I wouldn't hang around somewhere taking abuse just for the sake of it.

 

[sk]

Wonder how long it will be until all the decent ones are gone and all that's left on the internet is a bunch of crazy people writing profanities to each other...

/SK

 

[Tome]

You're telling me that Joss never received hate mails, letters, messages, etc. before? Any public figure can be the subject of criticism. I think he took it a little too seriously.

Anybody who tells someone to go kill himself should lose all credibility instantly. I get that some people were angry that Black Widow didn't have the role they expected, but this isn't the first time - nor will it be the last time - that a beloved character in a movie is handled a way some of the fanbase doesn't like. That's why it's called an interpretation. If they aren't happy with how Joss wrote their favorite character, they can simply choose not to watch the next movie.

 

[VisionBoy]

Wasn't Black Widow's reduced role down to Scarlet's pregnancy?

Hmm...
Anyway.
I can see where some of the more intelligent comments are coming from, even if I may not agree with all of them. I have no excuses for the straight up nasty comments though...like I said, that kind of stuff is why I stay off Twitter. There's criticism and there's legitimate anger... and then there's the kind of mob bullying that Twitter is sadly famous for; I just don't like it.
Either way, if it's true that Joss hasn't been handling the more articulate criticism well at all, then maybe a break from Twitter is what's needed; both for his sake and his critics.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

James Gunn had this to say regarding the topic...

A couple months ago someone on Twitter wrote me that something one of my characters said in my movie hurt him. I've gotten hundreds of tweets from people angry about moments in my films over the years, and I just ignore them, or get angry in return. But that one tweet affected me profoundly. The last thing I want to do with my work is hurt someone, especially someone who already feels disenfranchised. That made me think about what I write and what I put in my films, and I will be more thoughtful about situations like it in the future. That is, one honest and vulnerable tweet affected more change in me than hundreds of angry ones.

So, again, it's easy to be outraged by these tweets. But whatever these angry tweeters are in need of, I don't think it's more anger and more rage thrown back at them on Twitter. I actually think that's what they're seeking. But what they need is something different. Compassion, maybe? A kind request for boundaries? I don't know. Maybe you guys have some ideas.

​

I said in a previous post there is a right way and a wrong way to handle social media, at least he gets it.

 

[thetopher]

Wow, such uncalled for hatred over a movie.
Honestly, it's never okay to wish for a stranger to die, or get cancer or anything like that, just because you didn't like a piece of fiction that they did.
Calling somebody a mysogonist or a hater or a racist (or even a 'transgenderist' 🙄) because you didn't like one particular scene or line of dialogue in a movie is beyond stupid.
You do this and you are just an unpleasent person- full stop. And once you put these comments out there it's always out there for anyone to see.
Get some perspective.


Incidentally I don't agree with a lot of what Adam Baldwin says but I think he has a point on this one- Whedon is widely praised for his feminist writing/characterisation until he 'slips up' once and now he's toast.

 

[Blaze]

Honestly I don't really get people that say Joss (or any other celebrity for that matter) should be used to comments like that just because he gets em a lot. Sure, he should know how to deal with criticism. But I don't think anyone should ever learn to deal with comments such as "go kill yourself".

It's not like Joss threw a hissy fit over the comments either, literally all he did is quit a social media site. What's wrong with that, to my knowledge if you don't like something, don't do it? Even if it was because of the comments, if people are telling you to kill yourself over the internet, the simplest way to counteract this is to stop going on the internet.

 

[Taake]

Honestly I don't really get people that say Joss (or any other celebrity for that matter) should be used to comments like that just because he gets em a lot. Sure, he should know how to deal with criticism. But I don't think anyone should ever learn to deal with comments such as "go kill yourself".

It's not like Joss threw a hissy fit over the comments either, literally all he did is quit a social media site. What's wrong with that, to my knowledge if you don't like something, don't do it? Even if it was because of the comments, if people are telling you to kill yourself over the internet, the simplest way to counteract this is to stop going on the internet.

I don't know... I mean, most of the hissy fit comes from everything and everyone around Joss, but he's no fool. He was well aware that he couldn't just quit and no one would take notice, and considering the timing... it's a bit of a stomp-and-cry from where I'm sitting. He joins to promote a movie, sticks around for several years while everyone is stroking his ego, and then bam - backlash (that he must have foreseen, cause again, he's no fool) - and then it's sayonara just like that. Suddenly it's too time-consuming and not fun anymore...

I get that not everyone sees it that way, and honestly, I'm not upset about this, I don't really care about Joss being on Twitter it's mostly making me roll my eyes because of the whole drama around it, but I'm not going to go "boo-hoo, poor Joss, people didn't fawn all over him" either.

What is getting me riled up is people blaming it on "militant feminists" and their reaction and comments to him "slipping up" and not showing the perfect feminist-facade. There are always going to be idiots out there, shouting threats at others over perceived wrongs, that's a sad fact. No one is defending them. But Joss, if he has any media awareness* at all, handled this poorly.


*or if he has any awareness at all anymore. He had time to decry the "70's sexism" of just a snippet from the new Jurassic Park movie just weeks before this, but has somehow failed to see how people could be upset about the sexism in his own movie? Yeah, maybe he needs to be off Twitter and take some time to gather his thoughts and self-awareness, actually.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It's not like Joss threw a hissy fit over the comments either

But that's not entirely true. At first he did respond. He mocked some people that had problems and issues with it. Then as it progressed he posted images of himself laughing at it. Passive aggressively he did throw a hissy fit. But he was also riled and making poor comments in regards to Marvel so I think his dander was up in general. 

He had time to decry the "70's sexism" of just a snippet from the new Jurassic Park movie just weeks before this, but has somehow failed to see how people could be upset about the sexism in his own movie? Yeah, maybe he needs to be off Twitter and take some time to gather his thoughts and self-awareness, actually.

I completely agree. That is the issue I have. To say that Bryce Dallas Howards character is "not in touch with natural physical impulses like ... reproducing" as sexist (when it itself could be viewed as sexist). Then have a line in his movie implying to choose a 'career' over a family makes you a monster just seems like hypocrisy to me. And when he gets called out on it, he mocks the people to work them into more of a frenzy.

 

[thetopher]

and then bam - backlash (that he must have foreseen, cause again, he's no fool)

Why must he have forseen it? If he didn't think that particular movie plot-point/line was offensive/was just a joke then he would've totally been taken by surprise by all the vitriol (and yes, it was just pure vitriol as far as I can see).

I don't respect him for quitting- I think he could've handled the whole situation better and should've brazened it out- but that in no way excuses what these people were saying. I don't even care if this sort of thing 'happens to every celebrity' it's frankly repulsive.

In general I don't actually think Joss is very good with handling criticism and that, that fact coupled with the intense opinion microcosm that is Twitter- created a hate-storm.

What is getting me riled up is people blaming it on "militant feminists" and their reaction and comments to him "slipping up" and not showing the perfect feminist-facade.

But a lot of the criticism is from self-styled femininsts is it not? Of course not all the hate is- some of it is from Marvel fanboys ('you wrote my favourite character wrong, you jerk!')- but a lot of it was 'Joss the feminist is actually a woman-hater', etc.
To say otherwise is to deny what's written there on the screen.

Add to that the fact that there have always been a sub-section of feminist writers who have sneered at Joss' feminist works and critiqued the hell out of them (especially Buffy and Dollhouse) to 'prove' that Joss in some way actually dislikes/hates female characters and it starts to show a pattern- 'Joss screwed up so lets get him' seems to be the mindset.

Did Joss set himself up for a fall with the JW comment? Probably, but he still doesn't deserve this much hate for a 'capture/rescue' scene or an ill-intentioned joke.

 

[Blaze]

But that's not entirely true. At first he did respond. He mocked some people that had problems and issues with it. Then as it progressed he posted images of himself laughing at it. Passive aggressively he did throw a hissy fit. But he was also riled and making poor comments in regards to Marvel so I think his dander was up in general.

Oh, I didn't know that. I'm really not twitter savvy as it is, I'm not even sure how it works, but that was really immature of him.

I don't know... I mean, most of the hissy fit comes from everything and everyone around Joss, but he's no fool. He was well aware that he couldn't just quit and no one would take notice, and considering the timing... it's a bit of a stomp-and-cry from where I'm sitting. He joins to promote a movie, sticks around for several years while everyone is stroking his ego, and then bam - backlash (that he must have foreseen, cause again, he's no fool) - and then it's sayonara just like that. Suddenly it's too time-consuming and not fun anymore...

I get that not everyone sees it that way, and honestly, I'm not upset about this, I don't really care about Joss being on Twitter it's mostly making me roll my eyes because of the whole drama around it, but I'm not going to go "boo-hoo, poor Joss, people didn't fawn all over him" either.

I can agree with some of this, I don't feel particularly bad for the criticism either. Anyone should be open to that, it's more the comments that are plain hateful that I don't agree with. It'd be one thing if people were just criticizing the movie, but when someone just says the movie suck, go kill yourself, than I just don't get it. I wouldn't stick around either.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Oh, I didn't know that. I'm really not twitter savvy as it is, I'm not even sure how it works, but that was really immature of him.

That's what I think set everything off. If he would not have addressed it, or downplayed it, it would not have been as sensational. But the fact he responded, quipped, posted photos regarding the tweets, it sent out a beacon to anyone that wanted to make an impression to jump on board and rile him up. When the comments first started they weren't as malicious as the ones that made the 'headlines' that came later. When he started to delete and block users I think they starting coming on, responding just TO get blocked and deleted. Alot of them said things like "block me, I dont care" So I think alot of it he actually did bring on himself. It doesnt excuse it, but, he is not really an innocent victim either.

 

[Taake]

Why must he have forseen it? If he didn't think that particular movie plot-point/line was offensive/was just a joke then he would've totally been taken by surprise by all the vitriol (and yes, it was just pure vitriol as far as I can see).

Because he's not stupid.

To be clear - you may think it's an "ill-intentioned joke", but maybe that's because you're on the other side of the spectrum.
Portraying infertility as something monstrous - is not a f-ing joke man. It's one of the most offensive things I've seen in a long time and I understand that people are upset when you take the token female superhero and you make her journey about her flirtatious past(oh, she's such a slut, hardy har har, how funny... not)/her being a monster because she was forcefully sterialized/ and then to top it off you plop Hawkeye's wife in there - pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen as some kind of ideal.

Message sent; saving the world/being a superhero avenger type is clearly not enough for a woman, she can only be fullfilled/not a monster when she's pregnant/a mom.

SERIOUSLY?

I'm honestly just stunned that this is something Joss has written and thought of as acceptable.
I wouldn't go writing hate mail to him about it, but it's certainly made me lose respect for him.

But a lot of the criticism is from self-styled femininsts is it not? Of course not all the hate is- some of it is from Marvel fanboys ('you wrote my favourite character wrong, you jerk!')- but a lot of it was 'Joss the feminist is actually a woman-hater', etc.
To say otherwise is to deny what's written there on the screen.

Add to that the fact that there have always been a sub-section of feminist writers who have sneered at Joss' feminist works and critiqued the hell out of them (especially Buffy and Dollhouse) to 'prove' that Joss in some way actually dislikes/hates female characters and it starts to show a pattern- 'Joss screwed up so lets get him' seems to be the mindset.

Did Joss set himself up for a fall with the JW comment? Probably, but he still doesn't deserve this much hate for a 'capture/rescue' scene or an ill-intentioned joke.

And these self-styled feminists had reason to criticize.

However clearly a lot of people, not just feminists, went way overboard and stopped criticizing and got more into "hate mail" and threats territory (and again no one is defending these people) but to blanket statement say that it was all them who "drove him off" Twitter, is ridiculous. That would be like me saying that all men harrassed Anna Sarkeesian or whatever her name is, on Twitter.

The "Joss screwed up so lets get him" mindset isn't something that I've seen myself, but in this case, in my opinion, he did screw up.
Besides, that "lets get him/her" mentality can be applied to any and all filmmakers/authors etc in my opinion. People love tearing things apart.

Which means that plenty of people get too much hate, undeserved hate, and it's sad that the internet allows us to so impulsively spew hate on another person. It's not right, and it's a sad thing, so no, I'm not saying that he deserves it. However, I am saying that considering his past - and how many have put him on a pedestal when it comes to writing female characters (with hungry feminists wolves waiting at the door to tear him apart apparently) - I cannot imagine that he was truly surprised by this outcome. Did he think that people were going to be thrilled? To think he was being progressive? Bold? What exactly was he trying to do with this storyline? To me it just says that either he's over-worked, oblivious, or that he's crawled so far up his own behind that he thought he could do no wrong.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I cannot imagine that he was truly surprised by this outcome.

Especially considering how he wrote the character in the first Avengers, and the growth (albeit limited) she made in The Winter Solider, to essentially regress the character to someone's worth is determined by their boyfriend/love interest.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I've never understood where Joss' feminism cred came from to begin with. After all I have watched his shows. When I look at BtVS/AtS and their female characters and arcs I would never think 'feminist'. Demon pregnancies, permanent deaths, inability to handle power, screwed up mental states, character assasinations (mostly to further a man's story) and being punished for expressing sexuality/having sex. And that's just a few of the issues. I won't even touch Dollhouse. And the best good female character he probably ever created was Zoe and if that show had gone on I'm sure he would have found a way to screw her up too. Otherwise the female characters who stayed most true to themselves were the evil/bad ones (Darla, Lilah etc.).

Joss always struck me as a child with a paper thin ego. As long as you whorship him you always have a job, his affection, his respect and so forth. But dare to have an opinion of your own, stand up for it and express it (specially to the media) and he's done with you. What happened on twitter is really no different. Someone needs to let Joss know he ain't God and he never will be...

 

[The Bronze]

Black Widow was trained to be a monster and was expressing how she felt like one. There was no link between general infertility and being a monster. The message was clear enough. The people who trained her wanted her focused on killing and nothing else. To the extreme of sterilising her. So after years of training and being told what to become she feels like a monster because she was taught to have no other connection to the world.

The credit Joss has as a feminist I would imagine comes from his ability to write believable characters of both sexes. That's the point of feminism isn't it. You can watch something and enjoy the characters regardless of gender.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The message was clear enough. The people who trained her wanted her focused on killing and nothing else. To the extreme of sterilising her.

She volunteered to be sterilized so she could do her job and not get distracted by husband and kids. One assumption being that no husband would want her if she could not have kids. The other implying you either stay at home barefoot and pregnant like Hawkeye's ideal wife, or you have a 'profession' but not both.

That's the point of feminism isn't it. You can watch something and enjoy the characters regardless of gender.

That's far from the point of feminism.

 

[The Bronze]

She volunteered to be sterilized so she could do her job and not get distracted by husband and kids.

I'm 90% sure she was forced and didn't volunteer. I can't find the script for the scene though.

The other implying you either stay at home barefoot and pregnant like Hawkeye's ideal wife, or you have a 'profession' but not both.

You'd struggle to do any avenging while barefoot and pregnant. There was no mention of the scarlet witch being infertile. So it's not a requirement of avenging to never have the ability to have kids. Why does black Widow need to be compared directly to hawk eyes wife?

That's far from the point of feminism.

From a TV perspective surely having decent and believable characters of both sexes represents equality and therefore feminism.

 

[RomanticSoul]

The other implying you either stay at home barefoot and pregnant like Hawkeye's ideal wife, or you have a 'profession' but not both.

Not exactly the first time it has come up in a Whedon project. Just look at the worst Buffy episode ever, 'Lies My Parents Told Me'. Basically a woman who also has a job or other responsibilities outside of her child makes a worse mother than one who is fully committed to her child and nothing else.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Why does black Widow need to be compared directly to hawk eyes wife?

Because they were in their house.. because she and Banner were in their bedroom when Banner said "I cant have this, (motioning to the bedroom, the house) any of this, kids." So their relationship is in a direct comparison to that of Hawkeye and his wife. Furthermore, the fact she was going to throw away her chosen profession so she could be the appendage of a man alludes to Hawkeye's wife staying at home and waiting for the man to do his job, come back and then take care of the house. The whole part of the scene was to compare and contrast, Banner and Natasha to Hawkeye and wife. Her job and everything she believed in for the last two movies suddenly didnt matter because she found a man. Yeah, thats a strong female character.

From a TV perspective surely having decent and believable characters of both sexes represents equality and therefore feminism.

No it doesnt. Not at all. And your previous post "You can watch something and enjoy the characters regardless of gender." sure makes its sound like a good, feminist character is one you can watch and enjoy despite it being a woman.