Joss Quits Twitter

[Skanky Vamp]

Inferred- 'Shut up you man you! You don't even know what you're talking about.'

You infer too much. If and when your opinions do not matter, dont worry, I dont mince words. All I am saying is you do not know WHAT a woman's life is like unless you have lived as a woman. And as such, you cannot speak to what does, should or should not matter to a woman or women in general.

I gave AN EXAMPLE

You gave examples (Ripley & Mrs. Perkins) of MALE CHARACTERS which were later cast as women. Those characters you referenced were meant to be males. They were written as males. Just as Jodie Foster's character from Elysium, Viola Davis' character from Ender's Game, Angelina Jolie's character in Salt were all written as male characters. They are men with boobs. Even the Dizzy character in Starship Troopers was supposed to be a male, but they decided to have a love triangle and cast a female in the role. With exception of the love storyline, the role was the same. That is the irony of the SNL Black Widow: Age of Me skit; because women, in genre movies, are generally cast as the love interest or cast in a male (or gender neutral) role.

You mention the Unsullied. Yes, they were castrated, but how many countless male role models are there? Black Widow was sterilized, that's not on Whedon, that is not his fault. What he opts to do and how he presents it is. To the best of my knowledge there is currently one female superhero (depends on if you count Storm or not), and he turned her into a lovesick puppy. That is not equality, that is stereotypical characterization of what arguably is the only female superhero in film for a girl to look up to and aspire to become.

There are other bad things in the world apart from feminist unequality

There are indeed. And I am sure there are plenty of topics in which your personal beliefs, struggles and worries would lend more credence to the discussion. But as this is about how many women viewed the characterization of one of the few female superheroes, and went on twitter to express it, then you cant really say people should not have an issue with it. Because people did and have, and rather than outright dismissing them you should try to understand WHY they have a problem, versus saying I dont see a problem.

 

[thetopher]

You infer too much. If and when your opinions do not matter, dont worry, I dont mince words. All I am saying is you do not know WHAT a woman's life is like unless you have lived as a woman.

You made assuptions about my life/personal experience based simply on the fact that I am a man. Isn't there an -ism for that?

You gave examples (Ripley & Mrs. Perkins) of MALE CHARACTERS which were later cast as women. Those characters you referenced were meant to be males.

Ripley was meant to be a man? I've never, ever heard that, (Ridley Scott wanted to subvert audience expectations on who would survive- fact) and even if it is true it doesn't apply to the ALIENS movie which I did also mention. In that film the fact that Ripley is a heroine/mother figure is a goddam PLOT POINT.

Sarah Connor is another good example of a strong female character that changes between Terminator and T2. In T2 she's not gender neutral.

Angelina Jolie's character in Salt were all written as male characters.

I actually knew this (it was supposed to be Tom Cruise right?) but the fact remains that the character of Salt is NOT gender neutral at all. Angie took the role and made it her own; the love for her husband, her vulnerablity and strength and determination/resilience came across as decidedly feminine traits imo.

More actresses should be able to do this, since I don't think of any particular characterisic as particularly male or female. Can women be decisive, ruthless, strong, cunning? Yes of course so they should be given roles that can showcase that. Both men and women are capable of a whole host of similar emotional states- we're not that different.

In a day and age where James Bond can be emotionally vulnerable (and to be seen to be by the audience) I don't believe that any character in movies has to be a certain way gender-wise.

There are indeed. And I am sure there are plenty of topics in which your personal beliefs, struggles and worries would lend more credence to the discussion. But as this is about how many women viewed the characterization of one of the few female superheroes, and went on twitter to express it, then you cant really say people should not have an issue with it.

I never said that people shouldn't have any issue/criticism with the film or what's depicted in it, all I said was that saying somebody should die or get cancer is a vile, disgusting thing to say in defence of a fictional character.

No matter how passionately some people may feel about characters being misrepresented on film such talk just hurts any valid points struggling to be heard. Passion is fine, hell it's good and worthy, all that hate is not in any way cool. It just leads to them being dismissed as 'angry feminists' which is counter-productive I think we can agree.

 

[The Bronze]

So it seems to me if there's a woman in a film that isn't being a traditional woman then it's a man with boobs and against feminism. A woman in a film being a traditional woman would be a stereotype and against feminism. No women in a film would be excluding them and against feminism.

I can see why film makers would struggle.

 

[Silverspike]

Yes I can confirm (in fact I thought everybody knew this) that in the early drafts of Alien Ripley was a man. It was only later in the day that Ridley decided to flip genders, but thought it wasn't necessary to change any of the dialogue.

"All I am saying is you do not know WHAT a woman's life is like unless you have lived as a woman. And as such, you cannot speak to what does, should or should not matter to a woman or women in general."

Exactly.

 

[Mr Trick]

You made assuptions about my life/personal experience based simply on the fact that I am a man. Isn't there an -ism for that?



Ripley was meant to be a man? I've never, ever heard that, (Ridley Scott wanted to subvert audience expectations on who would survive- fact) and even if it is true it doesn't apply to the ALIENS movie which I did also mention. In that film the fact that Ripley is a heroine/mother figure is a goddam PLOT POINT.

Sarah Connor is another good example of a strong female character that changes between Terminator and T2. In T2 she's not gender neutral.



I actually knew this (it was supposed to be Tom Cruise right?) but the fact remains that the character of Salt is NOT gender neutral at all. Angie took the role and made it her own; the love for her husband, her vulnerablity and strength and determination/resilience came across as decidedly feminine traits imo.

More actresses should be able to do this, since I don't think of any particular characterisic as particularly male or female. Can women be decisive, ruthless, strong, cunning? Yes of course so they should be given roles that can showcase that. Both men and women are capable of a whole host of similar emotional states- we're not that different.

In a day and age where James Bond can be emotionally vulnerable (and to be seen to be by the audience) I don't believe that any character in movies has to be a certain way gender-wise.



I never said that people shouldn't have any issue/criticism with the film or what's depicted in it, all I said was that saying somebody should die or get cancer is a vile, disgusting thing to say in defence of a fictional character.

No matter how passionately some people may feel about characters being misrepresented on film such talk just hurts any valid points struggling to be heard. Passion is fine, hell it's good and worthy, all that hate is not in any way cool. It just leads to them being dismissed as 'angry feminists' which is counter-productive I think we can agree.

And I agree with all of this. Even if the roles were intended for men that only matters if the character changes to a crude female stereotype once a female is cast. In the case of the first Alien film at least this was not the case. This is progress to see women take these roles to be just as suitable for them as men.

 

[Taake]

So it seems to me if there's a woman in a film that isn't being a traditional woman then it's a man with boobs and against feminism. A woman in a film being a traditional woman would be a stereotype and against feminism. No women in a film would be excluding them and against feminism.

I can see why film makers would struggle.

And I think this is making it seem unnecessarily hard. As if women are soooo hard to please. Poor filmmakers, whatever shall they do?*

Look, here's the deal, no one is ever going to please everyone. That's just a fact.
But when hundreds/thousands of women (and some men to be fair) all have a negative reaction to a certain portrayal/character then maybe, just maybe, there is some validity to their experience and maybe, just maybe, they're shouting really loudly about it because they're used to being ignored. And maybe, just maybe, you're not an expert on what this is like.

@thetopher I will reiterate that no one is defending people saying stuff like "you should get cancer and die", that's a horrible thing to say to anybody at any time and I'll go out on a limb and say that it is never ever a justified thing to say.

But, as I stated earlier, the fact that some people (men/women/trolls) said these things, does not to me justify people like Adam Baldwin shouting that it's all "feminists" fault, as if they're the only ones in the wrong here, as if they "scared" Joss off Twitter. There were plenty of people saying horrible things to Joss, not all of them feminists, so why is one group getting to wear the black hat? That is just taking the spot-light off the real issue here - i.e. what people (people, not women) thought was wrong with the Black Widow storyline - and putting all the emphasis on Joss Whedon and his Twitter-departure and playing a sad little violin for him because again, poor filmmaker, he's written so many strong females before, why doesn't that just blanket cover all his future endeavours?

Why? Because there are decades and droves of male driven movies/male action heroes/superheroes whatever you name it. And just because women have started to get more air-time, more storylines, more diversity, more of everything... does not mean that we're just going to bow our heads gratefully and say thank you for whatever scraps are thrown our way. It's not as if I'm going "oh well, we got Buffy and Ripley so... what do we have to complain about? We have it all!"

As a woman I am interested in how women are portrayed in popular fiction, I care for myself, I care for the young girls and women around me, and I care about the general societal attitude in this matter, and I am honestly beyond tired of having female characters often reduced to concerns about their love lives/what others think of their love lives/reproduction/family etc etc because it's a narrow role we've been forever squeezed into and there is MORE to the female experience than that. That's not to say that these things can't be important, or good, in a story but it doesn't have a place in all female-centered stories. The fact that this seems so hard for some to understand fills me with great despair. It's as if women are really viewed as this mysterious gender no one can figure out.


*pray tell, maybe start thinking about women as human beings rather than walking wombs/adornments/love triangle fodder/sexual decorations/frigid bitches/ etc etc and if a dude author is sitting around wondering how to write a woman, instead of scratching his head and going "oh, yeah, ovaries and lipgloss, right? That's what they think about!" maybe he should spend some time with women and ask them questions and you know... take an interest in them as people rather than just women.

 

[Mr Trick]

And I think this is making it seem unnecessarily hard. As if women are soooo hard to please. Poor filmmakers, whatever shall they do?*

Look, here's the deal, no one is ever going to please everyone. That's just a fact.
But when hundreds/thousands of women (and some men to be fair) all have a negative reaction to a certain portrayal/character then maybe, just maybe, there is some validity to their experience and maybe, just maybe, they're shouting really loudly about it because they're used to being ignored. And maybe, just maybe, you're not an expert on what this is like.

@thetopher I will reiterate that no one is defending people saying stuff like "you should get cancer and die", that's a horrible thing to say to anybody at any time and I'll go out on a limb and say that it is never ever a justified thing to say.

But, as I stated earlier, the fact that some people (men/women/trolls) said these things, does not to me justify people like Adam Baldwin shouting that it's all "feminists" fault, as if they're the only ones in the wrong here, as if they "scared" Joss off Twitter. There were plenty of people saying horrible things to Joss, not all of them feminists, so why is one group getting to wear the black hat? That is just taking the spot-light off the real issue here - i.e. what people (people, not women) thought was wrong with the Black Widow storyline - and putting all the emphasis on Joss Whedon and his Twitter-departure and playing a sad little violin for him because again, poor filmmaker, he's written so many strong females before, why doesn't that just blanket cover all his future endeavours?

Why? Because there are decades and droves of male driven movies/male action heroes/superheroes whatever you name it. And just because women have started to get more air-time, more storylines, more diversity, more of everything... does not mean that we're just going to bow our heads gratefully and say thank you for whatever scraps are thrown our way. It's not as if I'm going "oh well, we got Buffy and Ripley so... what do we have to complain about? We have it all!"

As a woman I am interested in how women are portrayed in popular fiction, I care for myself, I care for the young girls and women around me, and I care about the general societal attitude in this matter, and I am honestly beyond tired of having female characters often reduced to concerns about their love lives/what others think of their love lives/reproduction/family etc etc because it's a narrow role we've been forever squeezed into and there is MORE to the female experience than that. That's not to say that these things can't be important, or good, in a story but it doesn't have a place in all female-centered stories. The fact that this seems so hard for some to understand fills me with great despair. It's as if women are really viewed as this mysterious gender no one can figure out.


*pray tell, maybe start thinking about women as human beings rather than walking wombs/adornments/love triangle fodder/sexual decorations/frigid bitches/ etc etc and if a dude author is sitting around wondering how to write a woman, instead of scratching his head and going "oh, yeah, ovaries and lipgloss, right? That's what they think about!" maybe he should spend some time with women and ask them questions and you know... take an interest in them as people rather than just women.

I can't disagree with any of that, but that doesn't change the fact that Joss was mistreated and had ever right to leave twitter without being accused of this and that. And balance this out besides Baldwin and maybe one or two others I don't see many people actually putting this at the door of feminists. All people like me and thethopher are saying is Whedon writing a bad character has nothing to do with his dodgy gender politics because he has written bad male ones in the past too, and given his history the idea that he would write sexist characters, or at least do it on purpose just doesn't make sense. And thats another thing, sure Whedon shouldn't get a free ride just because of his past, but likewise I think people consider his past work and say "you know maybe it adds up that this guy really isn't sexist or did anything on purpose to offend women". Whatever the case people should be able to express their views on a character without going to the extremes they have in this case. And another thing I don't get the JW trailer thing is being thrown back in his face? Is he not entitled to his opinion? Are we not supposed to be living in a free society? I don't why his comments there have been linked to The Black Widow character?

 

[The Bronze]

And I think this is making it seem unnecessarily hard. As if women are soooo hard to please. Poor filmmakers, whatever shall they do?*

Feminism is hard to please, not women. For another example, if a woman is written to show any weakness then this can result in a feminist outcry of: "why does a woman have to have this weakness?". Yet if a woman is written as perfect and without weakness then you can hear a feminist outcry of: "why are you setting unrealistic standards for women?".

Look, here's the deal, no one is ever going to please everyone. That's just a fact.
But when hundreds/thousands of women (and some men to be fair) all have a negative reaction to a certain portrayal/character then maybe, just maybe, there is some validity to their experience and maybe, just maybe, they're shouting really loudly about it because they're used to being ignored.

Or maybe they're seizing on an opportunity to jump down someone's throat because they're unhappy with their previous work or comments. It's made quite clear that Black Widow was trained and conditioned to be a killer. She endured forced sterilisation as part of this. She now sees herself as a monster because of this combination. It's nothing to do with infertility equalling being a monster. People are also forgetting that Bruce Banner is part of the conversation about fertility and not just Black Widow. So you have a man and a woman discussing fertility and the rest of the team not mention future plans. There's no sexism here however hard people might want to look for it.

And maybe, just maybe, you're not an expert on what this is like.

I bet 99% of people are used to being ignored. For example we have just had an election in my country. Our system currently guarantee's power to one of two parties that I don't agree with. We've just got the worst option of the two. No amount of me voting for something better or shouting about how disgusting the current bunch are will change that.

 

[Taake]

Ugh. I give up.
Carry on, carrying on.

 

[The Bronze]

@Mr Trick maybe a little different situation, it's playing on my mind at the moment. Every 5 years you get told to vote for one party so the other doesn't get in and not to waste your vote by voting for what you believe in. Certainly feels like being ignored.

 

[RomanticSoul]

But there is no need for a male writer to agonize over these things. Because the easy solution would be to just hire female writers when you develop the screenplay or script. How hard is that? A male writer agonizing over how to portray women is just silly because there is an easy way around that.

And this is more true of television than movies but ask the actress who has to get into the head of the character she plays if she thinks this or that would be what the character would do/say in a situation. Aren't shows supposed to be a colaborative effort to begin with?

We know from enough reports behind the scenes that Whedon wasn't prone to listening to anyone unless you were among his favorites. Which is why he changed Willow's story in S6 but Sarah's attempts to keep Buffy in character and a role model to girls always fell on deaf ears. And I've always sided with her on these things because she was right and Whedon's excuses were either lame or downright demeaning. Whedon's main goal with BtVS was to make AH a sex symbol. I mean really, someone please explain to me where his feminism street cred comes from? The guy was never concerned with how to portray women correctly.

 

[The Bronze]

@Silverspike yeah it's better than doing nothing. I've been trying to show people some of the damage that's already been done and offering links to why PR would be a step in the right direction. Might join the anti-austerity protests next month.

But there is no need for a male writer to agonize over these things. Because the easy solution would be to just hire female writers when you develop the screenplay or script. How hard is that? A male writer agonizing over how to portray women is just silly because there is an easy way around that.

That's an interesting idea. Would you hire a black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled writer to consult for black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled characters as well? If a character was both blonde and female which writer's opinion would carry more weight?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

[
That's an interesting idea. Would you hire a black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled writer to consult for black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled characters as well? If a character was both blonde and female which writer's opinion would carry more weight?

They do that all of the time. That's the whole point of bringing in consultants. LOL

 

[The Bronze]

They do that all of the time. That's the whole point of bringing in consultants. LOL

They really bring in a range of consultants to cover all variations of the human condition? I knew that one or two people would be consulted on the general movie but didn't realise each character had a consultant based on the categories they fall in to.

 

[VisionBoy]

All this kind of reminds me of when Joss got a lot of bashing for killing Tara. People believing that he was saying that a gay relationship can't have a happy ending. Calling him a homophobe and whatnot. Basically, looking for subtext that just wasn't intended at all and running with it to a very mean spirited place.

I've said before that by waving that flag, Joss gave him self a lot to live up to and he has made big errors in judgement in the past... but I don't think it's as simple as getting a female writer. Seriously, women can write poor female characters too, same goes for men writing other men. A woman writing it doesn't automatically make it feminist writing. Just look at how much criticism 50 Shades of Grey got for its misogynistic themes. Both the book and the screenplay were written by women; that sure as hell didn't make either a feminist piece!

Also I said before on a thread discussing the spell in Chosen... Joss has always had female influence around him. One example in this instance is that his editor for AOU was Lisa Lassek; a woman. Women have always been involved in his work in one form or another.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

They really bring in a range of consultants to cover all variations of the human condition? I knew that one or two people would be consulted on the general movie but didn't realise each character had a consultant based on the categories they fall in to.

You asked "Would you hire a black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled writer to consult for black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled characters as well?" and I answered. If you dont want an answer dont ask a question. I forget that some people are simply ignorant for the sake of being ignorant.

 

[Silverspike]

@Silverspike yeah it's better than doing nothing. I've been trying to show people some of the damage that's already been done and offering links to why PR would be a step in the right direction. Might join the anti-austerity protests next month.

Good for you! Every little bit of resistance helps. 😀

 

[The Bronze]

You asked "Would you hire a black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled writer to consult for black/old/young/blonde/tall/disabled characters as well?" and I answered. If you dont want an answer dont ask a question. I forget that some people are simply ignorant for the sake of being ignorant.

I am ignorant of Hollywood practises. You said they bring in consultant's all the time. To which my response was do they bring them in to check the story and characters in general or do they bring in an army of them to represent each particular attribute of a character.

To clarify this a bit, what I'm getting at is that I wouldn't want someone to start speaking for me "as a man". There's billions of us on the planet and we all react differently. I therefore don't think you can capture every individual woman by bringing in a female writer to make the character react "as a woman". I don't believe we're different to the point of men not being able to write female roles and vice versa.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

my response was do they bring them in to check the story and characters in general or do they bring in an army of them to represent each particular attribute of a character.

They bring them in for whatever they need to bring them in for. That's how Whedon started in the business. He was a script consultant when people were having trouble with scenes and dialogue.

 

[The Bronze]

They bring them in for whatever they need to bring them in for. That's how Whedon started in the business. He was a script consultant when people were having trouble with scenes and dialogue.

That's what I suspected. General help drafted in to boost the quality of the product. Which is different from bringing in specialists because it's impossible for a writer to create a decent character which differs in any way from them - be that gender, race, height, hair colour etc.