Joss says Brad Meltzer Turned the Comic into 'Fan Fiction'

[Lyri]

I found this on another site today, and I thought I'd post it here. (Forgive me if it's already been posted, but I didn't see anyone talking about it, so if I'm late to the party, mods, please delete, with my apologies.)

The title of the thread comes from the last paragraph.

Joss Whedon: “Every kid who hated grownups became a grownup.”

When Joss Whedon creates a huge spectacle like Avengers 2 or Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., he's speaking to a mass audience using studio money. But he also manages to speak directly to his fans, with smaller projects like Dr. Horrible, Much Ado About Nothing, and the Buffy/Angel/Serenity comics. He told us how he's keeping it real.

We were lucky enough to have a one-on-one interview with Whedon at the Dark Horse Comics booth, where we could talk to him about comics, writing and the creative process.

Whedon says the tie-in comics for Buffy and Serenity aren't aimed at a niche audience of die-hard fans. "I always thought of it as wanting as many people to read it as watched it," he says. "You always want to write for everybody — I don't want to exclude anybody from the party."

But at the same time, you have a lot more freedom when you're not dealing with a huge TV or movie studio. "If you want to deal with the abortion issue or have a character like Billy — well, that's easier. We don't have studio executives sweating every decision and that's very nice."

And meanwhile, Whedon has moved from doing scrappy upstart TV shows that play with superhero tropes, to creating the movie adventures of some of the world's most famous superheroes. Which is sort of a natural career arc. Says Whedon:

I met Dave Thomas and he said [that] they were writing parodies of Bob Hope jokes and then they got hired by Bob Hope. At some point you get hired by Bob. You become the next iteration of it. Every kid who hated grownups becomes a grownup. Well, except the ones who died.

When Whedon was making his TV shows and movies, he says, "we always made these things at the behest of the people with money." But Dr. Horrible was the first project where it " was just me and the peanut gallery. Same with Much Ado About Nothing. I wanted everybody to see them and love them but I was also perfectly comfortable throwing that money down the well." Instead of having a rich patron, like in Renaissance Europe, who pays for the art that the peanut gallery consumes, Dr. Horrible removed the patron from the mix.

Says Whedon, "This is the first time that we've been able to do that on a mass level. Not that there's anything wrong with having a patron, says the man who is about to make Avengers 2. I'm very grateful for these opportunities."

We asked Whedon who his role models are, in terms of connecting with the fans. He said:

I saw people like my dad, who were gracious. But I think most you'd hear stories — famous or apocryphal stories. Here's my favorite. So Debbie Reynolds is doing Singing in the Rain. She's at the studio, and she's crying and really having a tough time. Gene Kelly is a rough guy, and she's only 19. And this guy comes up to her and says, "Hey what's wrong?" And she says they're killing me, and he talks to her and helps her out. And you know who it is? Fred Astaire. Now that may be apocryphal. But it captures the essence of who he was — really accepting, working his ass off, and always a gentleman. That's the guy I'd like to be. I'm not a hard worker and I'm not a gentleman, so I've failed already. But that's my model.

We also asked Whedon how much of Darlene, the morose teen character he wrote on Roseanne, comes out in various characters throughout his work. He responded: "I don't see that, but that doesn't mean she's not there. I never thought of her as an iconic thing. I did like writing Darlene. If there's a nerdy, antisocial dark person sniping at grownups in my work, that would be me."

We asked Whedon for the secret of a great lair, like the scientist headquarters in Cabin in the Woods, and he said it basically comes down to trying to have a great set that you can stand to keep filming in:

In television you create one because you need to use the same set again and again or you'll run out of money. So you want one that gives you the most opportunities, and the most ecclecticism in terms of how to shoot another goddamn scene in that goddamn lair. Drew Goddard is from Los Alamos and in Cabin, we wanted to get that low tech 70s feel of science back when. It was the squareness and mundaneness of that, contrasted with the appalling and fascinating nature of what they're doing.
And as for the shift to a shiny new lair — in every instance, the environment is part of the characters. The idea of giant corporations sticking it to the little guy is huge theme in all my work. That's going to be hard with S.H.I.E.L.D. — they're a ragtag group working for the government now.

Talking more about the Buffy comics, Whedon addressed the "Buffy and Angel **** a universe into existence" storyline, saying, "It's Brad Meltzer who turned the comic into fanfic." He laughs, and adds: "Every writer comes with their own agenda — I think Brad asked how many DC references he could make. Drew [Goddard] did the Japanese arc, which is a big favorite of mine. He loved writing Dracula — the silliness of that, and the giant Mecha-Dawn. We had the most fun breaking that stuff together. Getting their voices into the story is fun. And sometimes you bring the sexy — because we're people."

SOURCE

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm assuming he meant it in fun, but if not, it's very telling that he mentioned Mecha-Dawn as one of his favorite parts of the season...

And also, it's more than worth saying, Brad Meltzer is ten times the comic book writer Joss Whedon is.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Whenever Joss says something that sounds like he's dissing somebody he worked with, he's joking. (Unless that person is Donald Sutherland).

I think Meltzer's arc was the point where season 8 went seriously off the rails, but he was just writing the story Joss outlined. The over-the-top nature of the Space Frak scene may have been his doing, but the Space Frak itself was all Whedon. But that scene just put a lampshade on the real underlying problem, which was the behavior of Angel and, later, Buffy. It didn't work for me.

I'm glad that Drew Goddard's Wolves at the Gate arc was Joss's favorite part of season 8, though. It was mine too.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Joss might have said it in jest, but he's not wrong lol

 

[BuffyElevated]

Joss might have said it in jest, but he's not wrong lol

LOL I agree. I don't read the actual comics, but from all the plot points I've seen and heard about online, I think the comic is pretty far gone from the original context of the series and characters.

 

[Lyri]

He might have been saying it in jest or lightening the mood of the interview, but that doesn't mean he doesn't think it.

It's been a point of contention for a while, how much contact Joss has with the writers of the comics. Considering some of the statements in this interview, my guess is that he gives them a basic outline of what he wants from the season - giant!Dawn, Dracula will appear at some point, Buffy will have a lesbian fling, Angel will be Twilight and there will be a prophecy about a new universe - but I would be VERY surprised if he was reading the issues before they go to print.

After all, if he REALLY didn't like the space frak or Meltzer's arc, if he was reading the scripts before they were being signed off, he could have asked for certain changes to be made.

 

[janas]

Whenever Joss says something that sounds like he's dissing somebody he worked with, he's joking. (Unless that person is Donald Sutherland).

Now though you have me intrigued 😀 What said Joss about Donald Sutherland?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Now though you have me intrigued 😀 What said Joss about Donald Sutherland?

When Donald Sutherland played Merrick in the 1992 Buffy movie, he decided he wasn't satisfied with the role Joss had written for him, so he improvised most of it. This included the idea of the same Watcher (him) being re-born over and over again, which of course was not in Joss's script. He also re-wrote his death scene.

Because he was THE Donald Sutherland and Joss and the Kuzuis were all rookie filmmakers, the Kuzuis let him get away with it, thus screwing up the whole mythology of Watchers and Slayers that Joss had carefully created.

Joss has referred to Sutherland as "The thespian who shall remain hated." He's the only person I've ever heard Joss insult in public without it being a joke.

 

[janas]

When Donald Sutherland played Merrick in the 1992 Buffy movie, he decided he wasn't satisfied with the role Joss had written for him, so he improvised most of it. This included the idea of the same Watcher (him) being re-born over and over again, which of course was not in Joss's script. He also re-wrote his death scene.

Because he was THE Donald Sutherland and Joss and the Kuzuis were all rookie filmmakers, the Kuzuis let him get away with it, thus screwing up the whole mythology of Watchers and Slayers that Joss had carefully created.

Joss has referred to Sutherland as "The thespian who shall remain hated." He's the only person I've ever heard Joss insult in public without it being a joke.

Well! Joss was right to "hate him". The actors must do their job, that is, play their part, and leave the part of the writers create "their" story. If I had been in the place of Joss, I would be angry so do I.

 

[The Scourge]

Yes, yes, I forgot anything in Whedon's work that is criticized is totally not Joss's fault.

I highly doubt Joss didn't sign off on this stuff. Fanfiction or not, it has his name on it. He approved it. If the comics got better reception he would even be talking like this.

[HASHTAG]#WillNeverForgiveYouForScrewingWithAngelsCharacter[/HASHTAG]

 

[BuffyElevated]

Buffyverse Fan agrees: Ever hear Kartheiser talk about Joss? No love lost there either...

Vincent Kartheiser doesn't like Joss?? Why not?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Vincent Kartheiser doesn't like Joss?? Why not?

I remember reading something about how Vincent disliked Joss' writing, and found his scripts/words difficult to say.

Anyone have the original interview this was from?

 

[BuffyElevated]

I found this article where he kinda talks about his feelings on it:

The Q&A: Mad Man

Vincent Kartheiser has been a working actor since the tender age of 14, appearing in such films and television shows as Alaska, Another Day in Paradise, and Angel. Now 28, the still boyish Minnesota native has at last landed his first truly adult role on AMC’s acclaimed drama Mad Men. Kartheiser plays Pete Campbell, one of the youngest employees at New York’s top advertising firm Sterling Cooper. Introduced as an opportunistic jerk, viewers have quickly come to see that there’s more to Pete than meets the eye. For starters, he’s the offspring of a prominent Manhattan family and his dalliance in a tradesman’s job like advertising has cost him the respect of his father. Driven by a desperate need for approval, Pete keeps attempting to assert himself at work only to be belittled at every turn. The role has allowed Kartheiser to do some of the best work of his career and he’s well aware of his good fortune. The Scanner spoke with the actor about how he got the gig, his controversial stint on Angel and which hero he would have been had we landed a role on Heroes.

The Scanner: How did the role come to you? Was this a script you actively pursued or was it more of an accident?

Vincent Kartheiser: I auditioned for a few pilots that year, Jericho, Heroes and Mad Men. In general, I don’t audition for an incredible amount of projects. I’ve been doing this for about 20 years and at a certain point you start to realize what you’re going to get hired for. But Mad Men was one of those pilots where I read it and after I was done I wanted to read it again. There was this swagger about the script that was different from so much I had read in the last few years. I knew it was something I could do. After that it was pretty normal: I went in and auditioned. I guess this story isn’t as interesting as I wanted it to be! [Laughs]

The Scanner: In the pilot, Pete seemed to be one of those classic Type-A assholes that are always looking out for number one. But in subsequent episodes, we’ve learned things about his background that, while not excusing for his behavior do help explain it. Were you always aware of Pete’s backstory and are you kept in the loop as to where the character is going?

Kartheiser: I have no idea where the show or Pete is going. And I think that keeps us all on our toes. These characters all have so many layers and so many sides. Right now, I don’t know what’s happening to Pete in Episode 13. We find out a couple days before we start shooting where our character is going to be. Matthew [Weiner, the show’s creator] does give you hints. He’ll call you at 9pm and say, “Here’s the new script; I want you to keep this and this in mind and oh by the way, this might happen down the road for you.” It allows you to play the moment as honestly as you can, so it actually helps. Sometimes we want to have the arc and want to know more than our character does, but I think this takes pressure off.

The Scanner: One of the things I love about the series is that it both recreates that era and comments on it at the same time. It’s a lot like the Todd Haynes movie Far From Heaven in that way.

Kartheiser: As much as it’s about that era, I think it’s actually about this era. We like to think that the ‘50s and ‘60s are further away from us than they are. We are the children of this generation so the apple doesn’t fall that far. We’re still playing out a lot of the same issues: the advertising snowball that was built in that era has become this globalized juggernaut. I look at my 10-year-old nieces and they’re completely oblivious to the fact that every second of every day they’re being sold something. We like to think we’ve come so far and changed so much, racism is gone, chauvinism is gone and they’re not! Women are still objectified in 90% of the conversations I have with men. And I’m not saying I’m any better.

The Scanner: The writers do a fantastic job depicting the gender politics of that era. Do the scripts ever spark any discussion on set?

Kartheiser: Yeah, there are a lot of women on set who look at their characters’ lives and say, “Why did we ever burn our bras? Things were kinda nice.” I think it’s easy to look back on the grass is greener thing, but I think the gender roles were more defined [back then] and t made certain things simpler in life. I see a lot of young women nowadays caught and conflicted by these overwhelming pressures and expectations placed on them by their mothers and their fathers. And with guys, men are more like women and women are more like men everyday. I just had a conversation with a friend today. He called me and wanted me to know that last night I was a little aggressive with him and he felt he needed to talk about his feelings. And it’s like Jesus Christ dude! You weight 210 pounds and spend all day long in the gym. Are you really this much of a pussy? And it’s true, we are. [Laughs]

The Scanner: You confessed that you checked out the message boards early on in the show’s run. Were you reading what people thought about Pete? He can be a love-him-or-hate-him kind of guy.

Kartheiser: I don’t read too much about my character and I’ve actually slowed down on the boards. I just wanted to see what kind of people were watching the show. I never did that with Angel or anything—I think it’s because I really like this project and want people to see it.

The Scanner: Speaking of Angel, you played a fairly divisive character on that series as well—Angel’s sullen offspring Connor. Were you aware of the strong feelings that character generated?

Kartheiser: I knew people were reacting really strongly to Connor, but I didn’t know why because I didn’t know the show’s history. To me, the character lost its thrill about four episodes in. From there on out I felt like I was doing the same scene over and over and over. Every week I’d show up and have a scene with Cordelia, then Angel would show up and I’d have some sort of conflict with him. There’d be a couple of fight scenes where I’d fight with them even though I didn’t want to and then I would sulk and leave. That to me was every episode. Ultimately, they wrote him into a corner. There was nowhere for him to go. I think the majority of the fans really hated Conner and really hated me and getting me off the show was the highest priority. And I don’t blame them.

The Scanner: What’s been the biggest difference between making Angel and Mad Men?

Kartheiser: There was a real sense on Angel that people were just doing a job. The grips, the DP, even the directors would kind of just show up, do their job and go home. On Mad Men, people really love the show and it means something to them. Every DP we’ve had has worked their ass off, we see directors we won’t be working with for two weeks walking around the set setting up shots and all of the actors come in prepared. People really care about this project. Not to say we didn’t care about Angel, but there was a sense we could do no wrong. We had our audience and regardless of what we did, we were going to keep that audience. On Mad Men we also have Matthew Weiner on set all the time whereas Joss [Whedon] was hardly ever on Angel. I think Joss was doing Firefly at that point and was in love with his next project. I had a friend who filmed a few episodes in the first season of Angel and said everyone was invested and there was crazy energy, so maybe I just came into it late. I let them know right off the bat that some of the choices they were making [about Conner] were wrong. I showed up to play that character and I had a lot of ideas. And they didn’t like any of those ideas. That’s okay, I’m in the business of having my ideas rejected. But after about 7 or 8 episodes of coming in with ideas and realizing it just didn’t matter, I became really complacent and jaded and angry at the project. I felt like it wasn’t a collaboration, that the people I was working with didn’t care to take risks. Some actors were able to find risks in there. If you look at Amy Acker, she just did an incredible job; she came onto that show with a developed character and stayed with it. She took a big risk and succeeded and I admired that.

The Scanner: Was it in part because of your experience on Angel that you chose Mad Men over another sci-fi series like Heroes or Jericho?

Kartheiser: That was more with Heroes because I don’t know if Jericho is that sci-fi. I was never a fan of Buffy, I’ll say it straight out. I was never a fan of Angel. I always found it hard to say Joss’ words. And that’s not a knock on Joss. I just don’t think I ever understood the show and my performance suffered because of that. They did the right thing by removing me. Then Spike came in the next year and he gave the show the shot in the arm it needed. That’s what they hired me for and I failed. So I didn’t blame that at all for wanting to try something new. I think it was a relief for me and for them.

The Scanner: Getting back to Mad Men, what would you like viewers who maybe haven’t tuned in yet to know about the show?

Kartheiser: That it’s enjoyable. I think that’s something we should press more: people’s perceptions of it is that they’ve heard so much about it and they want it to be a heavy handed statement on life. But I think it’s light-hearted. It’s a story about men and women and what it is to be human, what it is to fall asleep every night in a society where its all about what you’re doing next, what have you accomplished. It’s about that pain every person feels when you lay down and you realize that even if you’re married with five kids you and your struggle is unique to you and that can’t be cured by a new iPod or a fancy car.

The Scanner: Before I let you go, I’ve gotta ask: which part did you audition for on Heroes?

Kartheiser: I auditioned for the junkie painter character [Isaac]. God that show is a hit, huh?

The Scanner: It is, but it’s just as well you didn’t land the part. Isaac was killed off halfway through the season.

Kartheiser: Oh, he did? Hey, I love getting killed halfway through the season! When I booked Angel, I did the last 2 episodes of the first year and then I wasn’t in the first four episodes of the next season. I still got to go to Vegas with the rest of the cast and sat a poker table losing money. It was like, “It doesn’t even matter, I’m getting paid to be here. This is the greatest gig of my life!” [Laughs] Actually, this is the greatest gig of my life, truly. Whatever happens, I’m so blessed to be in the position to be on this show. It’s the best thing I’ve ever been a part of and I’ve been a part of a lot of things.


Source


I love this guy so much! Am I the only one who watches Mad Men around these parts? That show is awesome.

Read more at ONTD: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/15242440.html#ixzz2kP9ioxPg

 

[Taake]

Well as a Connor fan that's a little hard to read 😉 But I completely understand him about his points about the character because a lot could have been done there! However I do always think it's sad when actors are on shows that they don't like/respect... kind of makes me lose a bit of respect for them.

 

[janas]

I believe that of Vincent words shines through the heavy atmosphere that has been created during the season four for the pregnant of Charisma. This is something that has repeatedly said also David Boreanaz.

Vincent is right when he says:

I was doing the same scene over and over and over. Every week I'd show up and have a scene with Cordelia, then Angel would show up and I'd have some sort of conflict with him. There'd be a couple of fight scenes where I'd fight with them even though I didn't want to and then I would sulk and leave. That to me was every episode. Ultimately, they wrote him into a corner. There was nowhere for him to go.

I agree. The plot of the season four is confused, chaotic and unclear, and the character of Connor was under utilized.

 

[VisionGirl]

As to the OP, I agree that Joss seems to be saying it in jest. I also agree that Wolves At The Gate is one of the best arcs of season 8.

As to the Kartheiser interview, that is interesting. On the one hand, I agree with him that Connor's character was too one-dimensional and could have been utilized better. On the other hand, he admits to not being a Buffy & Angel fan in the first place, so could that not have influenced things as well?