Joss Whedon "had trouble making Angel"

[Moscow Watcher]

I heard many times that Joss "doesn't get" Angel. I usually dismissed it as just rumors. Until I read this:

From the highly readable Dr Horrible's Sing-along Blog book (out in shops soon)

Joss Whedon: "The villain thing just felt so right to me because I think villains are super poignant, and I don't trust heroes, which is why I had trouble making Angel for five years. Tall, handsome people who do good bother me."

I hope that Joss implies that this is why he made Angel so tragic and controversial, not just that he doesn't "get" him the way he is depicted on AtS.

 

[Icarium]

Ah, finally an explanation why he picks only short actresses for the main roles.

 

[Kean]

I really hope this is not why he tore Angel's character apart in S8.

 

[Flannen]

I really hope this is not why he tore Angel's character apart in S8.

That was my first thought too. It's another one of those comments by Whedon that just make me so annoyed. There's so many things I want to rant about it but to the point, it wouldn't make any sense lol

 

[Kean]

That was my first thought too. It's another one of those comments by Whedon that just make me so annoyed. There's so many things I want to rant about it but to the point, it wouldn't make any sense lol

Every time he says something like this I miss David Greenwalt more. Angel was always Greenwalt's baby, I get scared when he isn't involved. Apparently I have reason to. 🙁

 

[Icarium]

Yes, I have really started to suspect that Joss isn't much of a writer without Greenwalt around. BTvS also fell apart shortly after Greenwalt left.

 

[Marisa]

This news is kind of odd and shocks me. I hope he was kidding. I actually think Angel was one of his best characters so it is weird to think he turned out so great even though he didn't get him.

 

[LondonDude]

I think David Greenwalt was the only writer who "got" Angell.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

Yes, I have really started to suspect that Joss isn't much of a writer without Greenwalt around.

I respectfully disagree. Greenwalt had absolutely nothing to do with Firefly or Dr. Horrible, which are arguably Joss' most acclaimed and popular works aside from Buffy (and even that's debatable).

Quite frankly, I agree with Joss. There's a reason why people associate him with Firefly and Buffy first and foremost - Angel just doesn't have as much heart as his other work (aside from Dollhouse, which was pretty much created as an Eliza Dushku vehicle), which is no surprise because the show's inception was largely a result of the network's desire to milk off of Buffy's success. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Angel is bad (or Dollhouse, for that matter), I just don't think it's quintessential Whedon and never got the impression that he felt otherwise.

 

[Icarium]

Well, I don't like Firefly and for me it's "proof" of how much Joss needs Greenwalt, not against it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Angel is bad (or Dollhouse, for that matter), I just don't think it's quintessential Whedon and never got the impression that he felt otherwise.

I once read an interview in which Joss made it very clear that the popular view about him being more closely involved with BtVS than AtS was pure fantasy. Sure, he could be lying but why bother, especially if this view provides him a great excuse for whatever flaws people might find in AtS? This kind of reminds me of people trying to blame Marti Noxon of everything they didn't like about S6-7. It's not as if Joss was on Mars when these seasons were produced.

The rest of the writing room were never given the kudos they deserve, apart perhaps, Espenson. Greenwalt especially overlook, IMO.

Which is all the more annoying because I for one don't find Jane Espenson to be all that good. Many of her episodes are way too sit-comish.

 

[Kean]

Which is all the more annoying because I for one don't find Jane Espenson to be all that good. Many of her episodes are way too sit-comish.

I'm neutral on Espenson. There is no denying that she can write pure gold and is an amazing writer. But at the same time I feel there is a tendency to over exaggerate her talent and place her in a God like position. As if the idea of her writing something sub-par is utterly ludicrous.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

Well, I don't like Firefly and for me it's "proof" of how much Joss needs Greenwalt, not against it.

Fair enough, but I'd say that reflects your personal taste more than Joss' ability as a writer.

I once read an interview in which Joss made it very clear that the popular view about him being more closely involved with BtVS than AtS was pure fantasy. Sure, he could be lying but why bother, especially if this view provides him a great excuse for whatever flaws people might find in AtS? This kind of reminds me of people trying to blame Marti Noxon of everything they didn't like about S6-7. It's not as if Joss was on Mars when these seasons were produced.

I never said I didn't think Joss was as involved in Angel, I just said I never felt like most of the regular Whedon writers were as passionate about it as they were about Buffy or Firefly. And regarding your comment about seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy, I certainly don't think Joss is or was perfect, I just don't think David Greenwalt was the driving force behind his shows' writing.

 

[Marisa]

There's a reason why people associate him with Firefly and Buffy first and foremost - Angel just doesn't have as much heart as his other work.

I actually think Angel had a lot of heart. I love the show Angel I actually like it more than Buffy.

 

[Icarium]

Fair enough, but I'd say that reflects your personal taste more than Joss' ability as a writer.

Well, of course it does, considering we are talking about something totally subjective. I can't really "prove" that Firefly is overrated but you can't prove it's great, either. It's all a matter of opinion and taste.

 

[Taake]

That was my first thought too. It's another one of those comments by Whedon that just make me so annoyed. There's so many things I want to rant about it but to the point, it wouldn't make any sense lol

Agreed, I feel annoyed right now too so I'm just going to make a hasty retreat because frankly I feel appalled at the thought that this "bother" might've caused the actions of Angel s8 and it makes me worried about what lies ahead for my favorte character.

 

[Kean]

I actually think Angel had a lot of heart. I love the show Angel I actually like it more than Buffy.

I agree. Just in terms of the Fang Gang vs. The Scoobies, FG seem to me a much more loyal and dedicated group. No matter how horrifically any of them betrayed the other, they always found a way to reconcile and not bear grudges. As far as I could see, ATS was bursting with heart.

 

[sisterofmercy]

I agree. Just in terms of the Fang Gang vs. The Scoobies, FG seem to me a much more loyal and dedicated group. No matter how horrifically any of them betrayed the other, they always found a way to reconcile and not bear grudges. As far as I could see, ATS was bursting with heart.

I think that had a lot to do with their age though. They were older than the Scoobies (apart from Cordy but she did mature very quickly) and so saw past the grudges and focused on the mission at hand. The Fang Gang were also there primarily to do good rather than as friends, so that may have also been a factor.

 

[Kean]

I think that had a lot to do with their age though. They were older than the Scoobies (apart from Cordy but she did mature very quickly) and so saw past the grudges and focused on the mission at hand. The Fang Gang were also there primarily to do good rather than as friends, so that may have also been a factor.

That doesn't explain Giles though. And while the FG were absolutely united by their desire to fight the good fight they actually seemed like much more of a family than SG, IMO. Perhaps it was because none of them had any ties to their actual families or pre-fighting friends any longer and openly operated a supernatural detective agency. They didn't have to pretend to be anything they were not. Whilst the Scoobies had to maintain a "normal" cover and save the world.

 

[sisterofmercy]

That doesn't explain Giles though. And while the FG were absolutely united by their desire to fight the good fight they actually seemed like much more of a family than SG, IMO. Perhaps it was because none of them had any ties to their actual families or pre-fighting friends any longer and openly operated a supernatural detective agency. They didn't have to pretend to be anything they were not. Whilst the Scoobies had to maintain a "normal" cover and save the world.

That's a good point, I just figured that spending so much time around young people would have a bit of an affect on your own personality after a while. I think both groups were families of sorts, but they showed it in slightly different ways. I agree about your last point, with Buffy it was always about her trying to keep a low profile and mix real life with the supernatural, but in LA it didn't seem to be a factor.

 

[The Unspoken]

Didn't David Greenwalt create the character of Angel? I don't think Joss' original vision of the show included 'good' vampires.

I agree. Just in terms of the Fang Gang vs. The Scoobies, FG seem to me a much more loyal and dedicated group. No matter how horrifically any of them betrayed the other, they always found a way to reconcile and not bear grudges. As far as I could see, ATS was bursting with heart.

What grudges would those be, exactly? I definitely think there wasn't enough time spent on their friendship in the later seasons, and some mischaracterization, but everyone was supportive of Willow's rehabilitation in season 7 for example, so I'm not sure where this sentiment of 'Scoobies suck!' is coming from. And weren't you complaining a while back that Willow should've been punished more for her transgressions?