Joss Whedon "had trouble making Angel"

Didn't David Greenwalt create the character of Angel? I don't think Joss' original vision of the show included 'good' vampires.



What grudges would those be, exactly? I definitely think there wasn't enough time spent on their friendship in the later seasons, and some mischaracterization, but everyone was supportive of Willow's rehabilitation in season 7 for example, so I'm not sure where this sentiment of 'Scoobies suck!' is coming from. And weren't you complaining a while back that Willow should've been punished more for her transgressions?

Yeah, I was. I still do. What I was getting at was the general distance that grew amongst the Scoobies once they started college (and never really stopped growing). More specific things like kicking Buffy out of her house and the divisions and resentments that emerged in S8 between Buffy/Giles and Buffy/Willow.

To me the Scoobies felt most like a family in the early seasons whilst FG always felt that way, right up until the last scene.
 
Yeah, I was. I still do. What I was getting at was the general distance that grew amongst the Scoobies once they started college (and never really stopped growing). More specific things like kicking Buffy out of her house and the divisions and resentments that emerged in S8 between Buffy/Giles and Buffy/Willow.

To me the Scoobies felt most like a family in the early seasons whilst FG always felt that way, right up until the last scene.

Well, no offense, but that sounds like you're applying a clear double standard. If Angel can get over the fact that Wesley accidentally caused his son to be kidnapped and raised in a hell dimension, then why is 'Empty Places' seen as some kind of horrible atrocity and something that Buffy can't ever forgive? Especially considering the alternative consisted of getting slaughtered by Caleb. I thought season 8 featured a strong Buffy/Willow/Xander bond, and the Buffy/Giles and Buffy/Willow resentments were addressed, but to each their own.
 
Well, no offense, but that sounds like you're applying a clear double standard. If Angel can get over the fact that Wesley accidentally caused his son to be kidnapped and raised in a hell dimension, then why is 'Empty Places' seen as some kind of horrible atrocity and something that Buffy can't ever forgive? Especially considering the alternative consisted of getting slaughtered by Caleb. I thought season 8 featured a strong Buffy/Willow/Xander bond, and the Buffy/Giles and Buffy/Willow resentments were addressed, but to each their own.

Well to me none of these Buffyverse issues have actually been resolved. But like you said, to each their own.
 
That doesn't explain Giles though. And while the FG were absolutely united by their desire to fight the good fight they actually seemed like much more of a family than SG, IMO. Perhaps it was because none of them had any ties to their actual families or pre-fighting friends any longer and openly operated a supernatural detective agency. They didn't have to pretend to be anything they were not. Whilst the Scoobies had to maintain a "normal" cover and save the world.
I think it was the maintaining a normal cover as well. But then again they lived in Sunnydale things were far from normal. I just agree so much with the family factor. To me the show ATS represented a lot of things but one mainly being family and the bonds of people. I watch a lot of shows but the way the FG interacts and no matter what no matter how tough things got find a way to work it out that represents so much to me.
 
Maybe the problem that Joss had with Angel is that he is just too typical, for want of a better word. Okay, granted, he's a vampire, and, for the most of the time, the only ensouled vampire in Whedon's universe, but beyond that, his story, specially on his own show, is pure cliche'. He's the tall, dark,handsome hero with the shady past and the tortured conscience, trying to atone for his past sins by becoming the self appointed champion of the little people. Other than the fact that he's a vampire who mostly fights demons, and he could be any P I or cop who's ever been in movies, on TV, or the subject of Harlequin Romance Novels. There's nothing there that hasn't been done a few dozen times with "only the names changed to protect the innocent." Even his crew fits the standard mold.

There's the airhead secretary who has far more depth to her character than is at first revealed, and who, as time goes by, develops an ambiguous relationship with the hero. (Do they, or don't they? The viewer has to guess, because it's never actually revealed)

Then we have the stick-in-the-mud assistant who's usually a former college professor or scientist and a treasure trove of pertinent information necessary to the hero's investigations. Only later do we discover that Ol Prof is also a kick ass fighter who begins to dress shabbily and doesn't shave as often as he should.

The ex street punk who's working with the hero, not so much out of friendship (at least at first), but from a burning desire to get back at the criminals who killed his baby sister/parents/wife. He generally starts out as more or less just additional muscle, but somewhere along the way becomes a more important member of the gang.

At some point in the story, the hero's ex shows up to announce that they actually have a son...

That, I think, is a large part of Joss' difficulty in "Angel." Joss likes to work on things that take the cliche' and rip it to shreds, like Buffy, the cute little blond cheerleader who actually goes out and pulverizes the serial killers and other bad guys, or Mal Reynolds, who lives in a space ship but livs by the code of the Old West.

With Angel, take away his fangs, and he's Mike Hammer, Thomas Magnum, T J Hooker, or any other character. Boring. Joss just doesn't do boring very well.
 
Kean
Kean
If you see Angel as boring then you aren't looking very hard.
C
Crazy Flakes
You pretty much just spelled out the reasons why I'm not a huge Angel fan.
S
sisterofmercy
Good points
^Got to agree with Kean on this one.

Boil down Angel's or ATS story/plot that far and of course it'll sound cliche but seriously, BtVS was not the first show to be subversive and challenge cliches. It had a heck of a lot of them itself such as "bad guy turns good for the love of a woman". 😉

Personally, I think the problem is that Joss isn't as great a writer as he's made out to be. And you don't get to wash that away by being honest about it. If you don't have any conviction in your writing then don't write. Because if you're not careful, the people watching won't hold any conviction in it either. With comments like this, I wish he would just stop saying or writing anything about the show because every time he does, he tramples over his own work and pushes fans like me further and further away.
 
Taake
Taake
agreed!!!
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Kean agrees: If you see Angel as boring then you aren't looking very hard.

I looked very hard, through all 5 seasons, several times. What I saw was simply a Private Eye show with a supernatural twist. That didn't make it any less entertaining, there were just never any real surprises, the way that there were in "Buffy," and I can see where Joss would feel less challenged by Angel's story.
 
I agree. Just in terms of the Fang Gang vs. The Scoobies, FG seem to me a much more loyal and dedicated group. No matter how horrifically any of them betrayed the other, they always found a way to reconcile and not bear grudges.

Angel tried to smother Wesley with a pillow. Wesley stabbed Gunn. The Scoobies made do with yelling when they quarrelled. 🙂 Well, unless one of them was in the midst of a murder spree which happened depressingly often. Don't get me wrong, I think the disintegration of the Scooby Gang was the worst thing that ever happened in the Buffyverse but let's not kid ourselves about the AtS gang. Things never got quite that badly overall as they did in BtVS S7 but were very far from perfect, IMO. And I don't think the LA crew were ever nearly as close as the Scoobies were in S1-4. Last but not least, I am not really thrilled by the endless forgiveness in the Buffyverse and I don't think it proves much in regards to strength of friendships. Andrew is forgiven and he was never a friend of anyone, Faith is forgiven but nobody is kidding themselves about being great friends with her, Willow and Buffy give a million chances to Anya but they are not exactly great friends with her either, etc.
 
I agree. Just in terms of the Fang Gang vs. The Scoobies, FG seem to me a much more loyal and dedicated group. No matter how horrifically any of them betrayed the other, they always found a way to reconcile and not bear grudges. As far as I could see, ATS was bursting with heart.

I'm not talking about the characters, I'm talking about the show itself. There's a reason why Buffy is almost the prime example of a cult classic - it was groundbreaking, weird, and absolutely unique. Angel simply isn't remembered as much or as keenly, and that's because, as White Avenger said, it was a generic detective show (albeit a very well-done one with a few twists) and Joss never made much of an effort to disprove that fact.

There have been other shows about brooding, handsome, crime-solving vampires, even if they haven't all been as good as Angel. Just look at Forever Knight, Kindred (both of which came out before Angel), Moonlight (which was basically David Greenwalt trying to do Angel without Mutant Enemy or the Buffy mythology and getting disastrous results), Blood Ties, or Being Human. But there never has been and never will be anything quite like Buffy.
 
I'm not talking about the characters, I'm talking about the show itself. There's a reason why Buffy is almost the prime example of a cult classic - it was groundbreaking, weird, and absolutely unique. Angel simply isn't remembered as much or as keenly, and that's because, as White Avenger said, it was a generic detective show (albeit a very well-done one with a few twists) and Joss never made much of an effort to disprove that fact.

There have been other shows about brooding, handsome, crime-solving vampires, even if they haven't all been as good as Angel. Just look at Forever Knight, Kindred (both of which came out before Angel), Moonlight (which was basically David Greenwalt trying to do Angel without Mutant Enemy or the Buffy mythology and getting disastrous results), Blood Ties, or Being Human. But there never has been and never will be anything quite like Buffy.
If you look at it this way then Buffy isn't very original either. There have been many books with a lot of the storylines Buffy used early on. Tortured Vampire falls for human girl. The only difference is she was a slayer so to say that it was so unique isn't all that fair. I think the thing that makes Buffy stand out was the time it came out and the actors they were very strong. If Buffy came out today I wonder would it be considered a cult classic? Maybe but we would not know for sure. I am not trying to bash Buffy btw just wanted to point that out if it seems that way.
 
Flannen
Flannen
I'm totally with you. I love Buffy but I don't think it's a completely a unique show that no other show will ever be able to rival. I don't see it as bashing ;)
Something to consider is that the Angel team were brought together by a business to make money. Yes, they were close but they needed this gig to pay their way. Sure, the evil brought Buffy together with Willow and Xander but that wasn't their foundation: their connection was.

I also don't see why this Joss quote can't be him just joking around, either, sounds like something he'd do; take a jab/plug at his other work.

He also said - it's an interview, maybe on a DVD? - that when he was creating Firefly that he learned from Angel that in order (for him) to tell stories he needed a "cast," meaning more than 3, 4 people. (5 was gonna be the magic number of the Serenity crew in the early stages.)
 
If you look at it this way then Buffy isn't very original either. There have been many books with a lot of the storylines Buffy used early on. Tortured Vampire falls for human girl. The only difference is she was a slayer so to say that it was so unique isn't all that fair. I think the thing that makes Buffy stand out was the time it came out and the actors they were very strong. If Buffy came out today I wonder would it be considered a cult classic? Maybe but we would not know for sure. I am not trying to bash Buffy btw just wanted to point that out if it seems that way.

Sure, the individual story lines are clichéd... But the premise of the show isn't. Was there a cliche of the blonde air-head cheerleader type being a kickass crime fighting awesome chick?

You asked if Buffy came out today would it be considered a cult classic, I think probably not because since then a cliche has started forming around the premise of the show, but you have to remember... it started with Buffy.
 
Sure, the individual story lines are clichéd... But the premise of the show isn't. Was there a cliche of the blonde air-head cheerleader type being a kickass crime fighting awesome chick?

You asked if Buffy came out today would it be considered a cult classic, I think probably not because since then a cliche has started forming around the premise of the show, but you have to remember... it started with Buffy.
That is different but I am saying she wasn't the first ever girl to be a fighter. So it is not super unique.

See this is where I disagree. I used to be a person who would say this but over time I have seen a lot of things that were before Buffy. You could say that it started with Interview with a Vampire, you could say it started with The Vampire Diaries novels or the Sookie Stackhouse novels to say it started with Buffy is not exactly true.

See this was my point exactly it was considered unique because the time it came out but today when a lot of shows are like these would it be so unique? That is the way I was looking at it. There are a lot of Vampire shows and some are different but I was trying to say it is not as unique as it claims to be IMO.
 
You asked if Buffy came out today would it be considered a cult classic, I think probably not because since then a cliche has started forming around the premise of the show, but you have to remember... it started with Buffy.

I don't think the reason it wouldn't be a cult classic isn't because of all the newer shows that are formed around the cliche of BtVS but because the newer shows have done it so much better. I do realise, it's a kind of a moot point and there's lots of reasons why this could be the case but it's what I think nonetheless.

See this was my point exactly it was considered unique because the time it came out but today when a lot of shows are like these would it be so unique? That is the way I was looking at it. There are a lot of Vampire shows and some are different but I was trying to say it is not as unique as it claims to be IMO.

I agree, but it's not even just restrictd to vampire shows. And we watch a lot of the same shows so y'know lol 🙂
 
I don't think the reason it wouldn't be a cult classic isn't because of all the newer shows that are formed around the cliche of BtVS but because the newer shows have done it so much better. I do realise, it's a kind of a moot point and there's lots of reasons why this could be the case but it's what I think nonetheless.



I agree, but it's not even just restrictd to vampire shows. And we watch a lot of the same shows so y'know lol 🙂
Could not rep you again but I know what you mean 🙂
 
about the show itself. There's a reason why Buffy is almost the prime example of a cult classic - it was groundbreaking, weird, and absolutely unique. Angel simply isn't remembered as much or as keenly, and that's because, as White Avenger said, it was a generic detective show (albeit a very well-done one with a few twists) and Joss never made much of an effort to disprove that fact.

Fact? More like opinion, IMO. Might as well claim that Buffy is simply a generic superhero show. And I don't know about American TV shows because I haven't watched that many of them, but in Japanese animation (anime) there are literally hundreds of shows about high school students with superpowers, secret identities, destined to save the world, and so on, many of which involve kick-ass heroines. Most of them are rather terrible in quality, for sure, but we are talking about originality here. Few things are original in art these days and every premise can be simplified to something done before if one tries hard enough. What distinguishes the better shows is the execution, not uniqueness, IMO. I would venture that the witty dialogue and the fully-fleshed characters have a lot more to do with BtVS's popularity than any claims to uniqueness it might have. Most people who start watching the show say they initially thought the premise was stupid, I believe, so it's not as if they rushed in droves to watch the show because they had never watched anything like it before. A good writer can take a beaten to death idea and turn it into something great and seemingly new and fresh. It's possible to claim that "The Wire" for instance is just a detective show too, yet it's the darling of a great number of respected critics and has an insanely high rating on IMDB. It's certainly a very different show than "Angel" or say "CSI", another show who technically fits the bill as detective show.
 
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