EVIL UU
Scooby
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Like what? I'm asking because the vast majority of action heroines were created by men.
Like what? I'm asking because the vast majority of action heroines were created by men.
GwenRaiden
AKA Apology Girl
Mr Trick
Scooby
But you're making the mistake of thinking that giving the woman the power to kick butt makes you a feminist. If you go down that road then Wonder Woman would be hailed as a feminist text as would the first Terminator film.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Like what? What made his writing so rare? Seriously, provide examples.
Because other than the kicking butt aspect Buffy was not a very good role model or beacon for feminism. It's BECAUSE she kicked butt not despite it.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Its not a case of naming examples, its more the fact that at the time and probably even since there were hardly any female leads in Sci-Fi and the fact that for a man to write feminist characters is rare.
You must be watching a different show to me if you think that Buffy's only strength as a female is kicking butt. The fact that she is allowed to so flawed and human makes her a well rounded female lead for a start. Besides that she gets to funny, is much more smarter than first appears, is a strong leader, and has a depth.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Again, I call bullshit. You are looking at it with rose colored glasses and making the series seem more ground breaking. Maybe it's because you just started watching it recently and you weren't really involved with it prior to the Joss Whedon Mythological Machine creating this demi-god that we have today.
As a film scholar I would have loved if you could have educated me as to what made his writing so rare, when four years before Buffy aired Dana Scully was a better feminist lead in a genre show. Color me disappointed.
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EVIL UU
Scooby
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I'm not a feminist so it's hard for me to judge whether something is or is not feminist but when you look at the 90s TV Buffy doesn't seem that unique. You had Star Trek, Nikita, My So-Called Life, Vr.5, X-Files, Ally McBeal, Sabrina, The Teenage Witch and of course Xena: Warrior Princess.
Perhaps everyone is looking into the wrong places. The reason behind the male driven industry and male writing female character is exactly because we live in a sexist world where it's much harder for women to get into the film industry (behind the camera).
The point isn't so much that Joss is the only man capable of writing strong women, the point should be more focused on the fact that too often, the industry is men driven and quite sexist.
The point isn't so much that Joss is the only man capable of writing strong women, the point should be more focused on the fact that too often, the industry is men driven and quite sexist.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Well I will grant you that I don't know much about this so called Mythological machine surrounding Whedon pre-Buffy to me it seems more of a thing in more recent years, and comes more from the show connecting with a certain audience and being one of the most written about in accademic circles.
But Scully wasn't written for a teenage audience that is the difference. For one of the first times Buffy gave teenage girls (and in a way boys) a realistic voice. And another reason I think Buffy is such a unique show in that sense is because of the range of female characters, Willow is totally different to Buffy, and Cordelia is totally different to both of them, and then Faith while sharing some of Cordy's character traits is very different again, Anya and Tara again have differences. So if you're not convinced by Buffy as a feminist character fine, but there are plenty of other great female characters to choose from, and it is range of those characters which truly make it a feminist show.
I would say out of those examples that MSCL and TXF are the only ones which come close to Buffy in that respect. It is true that Star Trek was the first to do it maybe, but that still catered to a very stereotypical macho coldness and until later versions of the show the female characters were still very much supporting characters. Ally McBeal is a pretty entertaing show and it is true that the character was fairly strong, but also she was still a very gossipy girlie character who relied far too much on finding the right man (also I could be wrong but didn't it air about the same time as Buffy?), Nikita and Xena are just male fantasies of what a female action figure should be, again it is the human qualites of Buffy combined with her kicking butt and having great responisblity which make it such a strong character.
Spot on and that is part of my whole point. I guess I can see how Whedon is overhyped in that respect, but I can also see why that is the case. Its a bit like Obama becoming the first black president, of course it shouldn't be seen as a big deal just accepted, but sadly that is not the world we live in.
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Puffy
Guest
Joss Whedon (female) characters are characters people can truthfuly relate to. All that other stuff around, to be honest, is just a flat "something ok" thing, compared to his work. The most academic dissertations are about Buffy. No other TV show or movie series can match that.
So, for me there is no overhyping, when it comes to Joss. Even if he has to work under unflattering circumstances, the result will still be even better, then all the other stuff around.
So, for me there is no overhyping, when it comes to Joss. Even if he has to work under unflattering circumstances, the result will still be even better, then all the other stuff around.
Mr Trick
Scooby
This is the thing and its not like I'm saying that there weren't good examples around before Buffy there were, but they were the exceptions rather than the rule. As a teenage character Buffy was very ground breaking.
I'm sorry but this made me laugh out loud. How is this not a description of Buffy as well? She's a very gossipy, girly character obsessed with her boyfriends. The only time we see Buffy not obsessing about a man is when Joss felt the need to create an alternative "love interest" (i.e. Dawn) and even then Buffy had time to moon over both Riley and Ben... Just saying. I'm no fan of Ally McBeal but this is the kind of "Joss is so great at writing womenfolk" that kind of rubs me the wrong way, because he is not so stand-alone or unique at all.
Again - and Buffy isn't? 😉
*also I would like to add that the writing of Buffy and creation of her character is by no means on Whedon's shoulders only. She is a collaborative effort. He may have created the outline but giving him credit for everything that's good about the character and the show is somewhat erroneous.
Again it's not about saying that he's not a feminist. Personally he may very well be. But I don't think that his works can be judged against a "this is feminism in pop culture" lens. There may be feminist aspects to Joss' writings but he has never been the only one nor the first one to display these aspects within storytelling in the TV medium.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Firstly, the gossipy side of Buffy is part of the show being ironic and to be fair chances are that a teenager would be more of a gossip than a 30 something woman. I would say that for the first three seasons of the show that Buffy as a character has a big interst in guys, but again that is a naive teenage thing which she grows out of around about mid-season 4, and the show is meant to be about growing up after. I never get the impression that Buffy's complete focus is romance or than that defines her. And like I said don't forget the other female characters on the show. Is Faith a typical girlie character? Is Willow a typical Girlie character? Is Cordy a typical girlie character? etc..
No, Buffy isn't, because she doesn't act macho, yes she's attractive, but the show doesn't throw that in your face like those other shows. Again what about the other characters?
So your argument is that Buffy is less bubbly and gossipy now? I don't know if I agree. From the later seasons and the comics I think she is very much, at heart, still that gossipy valley girl even as she moves towards her 30s.
Disagree that she grows out of the romantic obsession, I think she grows into it if anything. (Just as one example: Hey Spike, wanna come live in my basement because I want you there to be the main focus of my attention even when you pose a risk to the Potentials, my family and friendships? Should I think about the end of the world or get that chip out of my poor boo's head?)
"Throw it in your face like those other shows"... errgh. I kind of don't want to touch this statement with a ten-foot pole. Sex appeal was always a part of Buffy's character. And even more so of Cordy and Faith and Anya. I'm not sure how you can see it in one show and not the other. Out of curiosity did you watch Nikita or Xena?
No but they are all stereotypical girl-characters of different kinds. Willow - insecure, nerd girl. Cordy - popular bitch girl. Faith - sexy bad girl. They may evolve somewhat but these outlines remain. It's partly because of the HS setting but after high school the new additions are woefully limited in their character traits - Anya and Tara are like jokes in terms of writing a "feminist" (i.e. a well rounded female) character. Strangely literal vs etherially bland. Clearly with out a pre-shaped mold Whedon had no idea what he was doing.
Mr Trick
Scooby
1. I've not read the comics but I think you have to place them separate from the television show, and certainly the way I viewed character from about season 4 onwards there was very little romance about the character.
2. The thing with Spike is very different from any of the other romantic relationships Buffy had, even with Angel you still had the teenage brooding thing going on. But in a way you just backed up my point by showing Buffy's faults, yes she's flawed character! Because guess what everyday people and yes that does include women are FLAWED! and that is why Buffy is feminist because she is allowed to be equal.
3. Yes it was, but I don't see anything wrong with saying, you know what she kicks butt and looks great doing it, it would only be a problem if that was the only thing to Buffy's character, but it isn't. Yeah those characters are sexual, but there are male characters who are sexual too, at least you get a balance. Don't forget also the point of the Cordy character at the start is she is stuck up, so while she might be quite naive about guys, I still don't see her as a slut.
4. But the nerd character which Willow starts as would normally be played by a guy in television up to that point. I think the reason they start out as stereotypes is so that the show can subvert those sterotypes later on and grow the characters. The Breakfeast Club wouldn't work if the characters were level headed people who got on from the start, its the same here.
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Puffy
Guest
The whole creative team was hand picked by Joss. People who could adept to his vision. To spare him time. To support him. But in the end, it is Joss ultimate Baby (Buffy). His outstanding genius. His shoulders could carry the world, if needed. 😉
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Its amazing! I dont have the energy to argue in that thread anymore.. I made my point and thats all I can bother with... rose colored glasses... people are told THIS IS A GREAT FEMINIST SHOW and they watch it expecting to see it so they allow themselves to see it. But it was never called a great feminist show when it aired, it was called a teen show. Why? Because Whedon wasn't prancing around saying "I needed to write strong female characters" Buffy the Feminist Show was and continues to be a myth.
If you thought it was a feminist show you were mythtaken.
If you thought it was a feminist show you were mythtaken.
Mr Trick
Scooby
The only time it really got too much for Joss was when Angel started and he was trying to balance two shows, I know that he wasn't the main creative force behind that at least not in the early years, but am guessing he still played a big part. But you are right about Buffy being his creative vision and him picking the people who share that, its no different than Lynch with Twin Peaks or Sorkin with the West Wing.
Because that is how history works, people very rarely say such and such is this or that when their on the air, besides maybe marketing people, and the reason is because you can only judge that when a certain amount of time has passed. Also, I'm getting a bit fed up with you talking down to people just because they don't share your views, if you don't think its a feminist show, then fine, but don't talk like our opinion is any less valid than yours or like we are naive fanboys/girls just because you don't like Buffy as much as us.
Because that is how history works, people very rarely say such and such is this or that when their on the air, besides maybe marketing people, and the reason is because you can only judge that when a certain amount of time has passed. Also, I'm getting a bit fed up with you talking down to people just because they don't share your views, if you don't think its a feminist show, then fine, but don't talk like our opinion is any less valid than yours or like we are naive fanboys/girls just because you don't like Buffy as much as us.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Exactly.. and you all bought into the Joss Whedon Mythological machine as I said before. You believed the marketing.
Cry me a river! You are a fine one to talk about that. You repeatedly tried to belittle me saying I "didn't understand" or I "couldn't see" the point of this or that whenever I did not share your views. From your first posts you told me my personal views were "wrong." So don't go playing the victim card now. You made your bed and now you lay it in.
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Puffy
Guest
Guys...perhaps the best solution in this situation is to keep it like Schäuble and Varoufakis.
"We agree to disagree." 😉
"We agree to disagree." 😉