Joss Whedon the feminist

[Blaze]

If you thought it was a feminist show you were mythtaken.

Well, to me any show with equally good male and female characters would be at least a little feminist, cause that words stands for equality in my mind. Or at the very least proper representation of male and female.

But aside from that I agree with you. Too many people see Joss as this father figure of feminism. Which isn't really accurate. Especially now with people doing feminism way better than him (compare Avengers with Mad Max and tell me which one was sexist).

 

[Taake]

But in a way you just backed up my point by showing Buffy's faults, yes she's flawed character! Because guess what everyday people and yes that does include women are FLAWED! and that is why Buffy is feminist because she is allowed to be equal.

I didn't say she couldn't be flawed. I said that she was still geered towards boys and a romantic focus which was something you held against other characters like Ally McBeal. I was pointing out that Buffy was not so singular and different. Clearly we disagree. This has nothing to do with the fact that she couldn't be flawed. And hey, guess what - I'm an every day person and flawed so no need to get so uppity about it.

, I still don't see her as a slut.

Suggesting that you view the women on the other shows as such...Based on what? Their wardrobe?


But whatever. I don't think that Joss being a feminist is neither here nor there when it comes to the show because I don't think that the show has a "feminist" message per say. (Other than having a female lead but that in and of itself does not make it feminist or equal in its character portrayals) Anyway I think it's supposed to be entertainment. A bit of fun. Not a political agenda. The feminist angle has been tacked on later on, in my opinion... if you want to you can make a pearl out of a grain of sand. People find what they're looking for. I just think that this singular focus on the show, as though it existed in a vaccum, is a bit scewed. It was not the first, the last or even the ultimate show with a strong "feminist" female character. Not even in its day.

But I shall bow out of the discussion. I'm not really a die-hard Whedon fan even though I like the show. I think he himself is really very overrated.

 

[EVIL UU]

@Mr Trick

Too girly? Bad. Too macho? Bad. Too sexy? Bad. Man, your standards are impossible.

 

[Puffy]

Retrospective it wasnt my best idea to put the word "feminist" in the heading. I guess it would have been the best, if I hadnt even mentioned "that word", because it is to polarizing. My mistake, I just underestimated it.
The actual intent was to focus on the impact for the target audience ("what would Buffy do") and Joss Whedons quest to encourage women with characters like Buffy or Black Widow against an old man dominated Hollywood.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Joss Whedons quest to encourage women with characters like .. Black Widow against an old man dominated Hollywood.

From my point of view Black Widow played into and supported the 'old man dominated Hollywood' by the viewpoints expressed. This was another can of worms from not long ago, and another topic to got a heated response. Her character was there, both literally and figuratively, to serve the males.

 

[Puffy]

From my point of view Black Widow played into and supported the 'old man dominated Hollywood' by the viewpoints expressed. This was another can of worms from not long ago, and another topic to got a heated response. Her character was there, both literally and figuratively, to serve the males.

Dont get me wrong. First of all, I totally respect your point of view. "Perhaps" its even correct, but I dont know, is it just me, or are your "points of views" allways a little bit too negative, "can of worms" like. 😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Dont get me wrong. First of all, I totally respect your point of view. "Perhaps" its even correct, but I dont know, is it just me, or are your "points of views" allways a little bit too negative, "can of worms" like. 😉

Not always... I prefer to think of them as realistic, not negative. You could say maybe they are jaded, but from my life experience and witnessing some of the things I have, then it's easier to the truth behind hyperbole. The truth is Black Widow had no effect on the target audience. Period.

 

[Puffy]

Not always... I prefer to think of them as realistic, not negative. You could say maybe they are jaded, but from my life experience and witnessing some of the things I have, then it's easier to the truth behind hyperbole. The truth is Black Widow had no effect on the target audience. Period.

To be honest, from my life experience and witnessing some of the things I have, I should be hopeless-suicidal-disenchanted. Everything goes evertime very wrong. People **** off, in nearly every case. And because my job is something like a "Troubleshooter", I have to deal with piles of shit unlimited. 😉

But when it comes to hobby, guess what, I dont need that whole negativ shit. For what?
Its about having fun. Even being jaded is not an option. 😉

It would be interesting, if its true (but I guess it is), why Black Widow had no effect on the target audience. There could be a mixed bag of reasons...

 

[Icarium]

People always have to make curious twists of logic to justify their extremely high opinion of Whedon's feminist themes, IMO. Like the above mentioned "But other shows' leads are too men-obsessed". Excuse me, are we still talking about the same Whedon who had his protagonist hook up with a guy who tried to murder her and all her friends and then for good measure with another guy who tried to murder her and all her friends and also tried to rape her? A protagonist who also blithely risked the lives of many innocent people with every chance she gave to those two guys? When Ally McBeal or another run off the mill female lead obsesses about some guy at least she isn't playing with innocent people's lives.

This isn't to say that Whedon doesn't deserve a lot of credit, just that he tends to get treated as if he were the first and greatest feminist TV writer. Which he is not. He is also the "genius" behind the "empowering" message of season seven which to me basically is "If you lack superpowers you are useless, especially if you happen to be female".

 

[Puffy]

. Excuse me, are we still talking about the same Whedon who had his protagonist hook up with a guy who tried to murder her and all her friends and then for good measure with another guy who tried to murder her and all her friends and also tried to rape her? A protagonist who also blithely risked the lives of many innocent people with every chance she gave to those two guys?

I allways understand, when people are wondering about that point what you mentioned.

But for me, this flaws make her human. So people can relate to her.

If she would be Wonder Women perfekt, that just wouldnt feel real.

Its not a drawback, its a "Joss Whedon" brilliant benefit. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

"Not perfect" is such a nebulous phrase. It can mean "near saint", it can also mean "unrepentant serial killer". So I am not giving writers any points for making their characters imperfect. Strictly speaking, just about every character in any form of fiction is imperfect. Some are relatable, others not so much but not being perfect in itself tells us nothing about that.

 

[Puffy]

"Not perfect" is such a nebulous phrase. It can mean "near saint", it can also mean "unrepentant serial killer". So I am not giving writers any points for making their characters imperfect. Strictly speaking, just about every character in any form of fiction is imperfect. Some are relatable, others not so much but not being perfect in itself tells us nothing about that.

I agree on that. It could be a benefit, but its not a no brainer that allways work.

P.S.
When it comes to Buffy, it does work pretty well, by the way. 😉

P.P.S.
Of course from my point of view. 😉

 

[Slay me]

While Buffy is physically strong, she's an emotional train wreck. Her romantic interludes with every one before Spike were so emotionally needy that they're painful to watch. She allowed her friends to constantly control her with their manipulative behavior and ridiculous interventions. Her behaviour in season 6 was particularly reprehensible. She didn't ask to be resurrected, but rather than confront her friends she physically and emotionally abused Spike. Spike, "the evil soulless thing," who had allowed Glory to almost torture him to death rather than reveal Dawn's identity. The same "evil soulless thing" that stayed with Dawn and cared for her after Buffy's death on the strength of a promise rather than any expectation of reward. The person/vampire who really didn't desire the dysfunctional, abusive relationship with Buffy. She refused any connection. She took what she wanted and refused to give back anything kind or gentle. The fact that she nearly beat him to death and left him to potentially die with the sunrise for the heinous crime of trying to help her marked her lowest moment in my opinion. Feminism isn't about abusiveness or double standards. I hate that Buffy never became an emotionally mature woman. I really wouldn't want my daughters to view her as a role model in most regards. That being said, Buffy never had much of a chance to develop emotionally given the life she led.

 

[Mr Trick]

While Buffy is physically strong, she's an emotional train wreck. Her romantic interludes with every one before Spike were so emotionally needy that they're painful to watch. She allowed her friends to constantly control her with their manipulative behavior and ridiculous interventions. Her behaviour in season 6 was particularly reprehensible. She didn't ask to be resurrected, but rather than confront her friends she physically and emotionally abused Spike. Spike, "the evil soulless thing," who had allowed Glory to almost torture him to death rather than reveal Dawn's identity. The same "evil soulless thing" that stayed with Dawn and cared for her after Buffy's death on the strength of a promise rather than any expectation of reward. The person/vampire who really didn't desire the dysfunctional, abusive relationship with Buffy. She refused any connection. She took what she wanted and refused to give back anything kind or gentle. The fact that she nearly beat him to death and left him to potentially die with the sunrise for the heinous crime of trying to help her marked her lowest moment in my opinion. Feminism isn't about abusiveness or double standards. I hate that Buffy never became an emotionally mature woman. I really wouldn't want my daughters to view her as a role model in most regards. That being said, Buffy never had much of a chance to develop emotionally given the life she led.

But the reason she's a progressive female character is because she's allowed to be flawed and to have issues, and yet is given more power than anyone else on the show. Trouble with the idea of the 'role model' is that its a very robotic and plastic concept, which is impossible for anyone to live up, and is not part of any sort of reality anyway.

 

[Slay me]

Her emotional

But the reason she's a progressive female character is because she's allowed to be flawed and to have issues, and yet is given more power than anyone else on the show. Trouble with the idea of the 'role model' is that its a very robotic and plastic concept, which is impossible for anyone to live up, and is not part of any sort of reality anyway.

There's flawed, and then there's bordering on emotionally crippled. I actually think Joyce and Tara were stronger in ways that matter.

 

[Wildfly]

Wasn't this guy chased off twitter by feminists? ( ᐛ )

...I don't really think of Buffy as a strong female character - I think she's just, you know, normal.

I am not sure Buffy (flawed, strong, feminine, independent) is a normal, typical character abundant in our pop-culture. Alas, fems usually aren't portrayed as complex characters. I was surprised how many many favourite shows and films of mine failed even the simple Bechdel test.
Female characters in action/fantasy etc genres and role-playing games are mostly
1. damsels in distress, they usually presented more like a reward to the hero than an actual person
2. macho characters like Furiosa from mad max or Ellen Ripley from alien.
3. the male wet dream variety, like our objectified black widow (sorry joss, but WT-alfj&0l## )

'normal' strong females as Buffy and Willow, are rare and so very precious to me 🙂
and when i got curios and googled interviews with joss on the subject i remember him saying that he is frequently asked why he created such a strong female character as Buffy,
which for him was a redundant question, the real wringer being why such a role for a female even warrants a question. 🙄

some might say that the idea that a slayer(s), who confronts the forces of darkness and defends the people is just another proof for the show being feminist,
until you remember that they're created, 'watched' and controlled by the council which is definitely male authority theme... then again, Buffy is pretty independent and defies the council,
(josh in general has problem with government and politicians, unsurprisingly it seems they're mostly an evil and corrupt influence like the major or the initiative). So i think this whole situation in Buffy is his take on our reality...

for me BTVS (ATVS less so) undoubtedly is one of the rare shows that portray and present females and males according to feminist standards (sometimes we forget that feminism is also against male objectification) so i was happy that they didn't make Xander overly macho, but a real teenager with a real set of problems). Sure, he is still looks Hollywood comely, but that's for another discussion...

I admit that later we got too much macho shirtless Angel and Spike goodness (both whom i love, btw and by no means i am complaining, mind you 🙂 ) and the show's focus shifted, but well... we can't really blame joss for following public opinion and giving fanservice, now can we? the public gets what the public wants. 😛

 

[thetopher]

I am not sure Buffy (flawed, strong, feminine, independent) is a normal, typical character abundant in our pop-culture. Alas, fems usually aren't portrayed as complex characters. I was surprised how many many favourite shows and films of mine failed even the simple Bechdel test.

I think that's the thing. Buffy, Willow and co are 'feminist' simply because they're complex/well-rounded. They have plenty of strengths and weaknesses, get chances to be smart, brave, powerful, decisive, kick-ass etc. but also ocassionally screw up and make you mad. Basically everything a (well written) male character usually gets.

To me 'Feminist' is treating your characters the same/similarly regardless of gender.

for me BTVS (ATVS less so) undoubtedly is one of the rare shows that portray and present females and males according to feminist standards (sometimes we forget that feminism is also against male objectification)

I admit that later we got too much macho shirtless Angel and Spike goodness

Sadly the show is a lot about male objectification, which is really a siggn of equality now is it?

 

[Silverspike]

"I admit that later we got too much macho shirtless Angel and Spike goodness (both whom i love, btw and by no means i am complaining, mind you 🙂 ) and the show's focus shifted, but well... we can't really blame joss for following public opinion and giving fanservice, now can we? the public gets what the public wants"

The shows focus never shifted imo. Treating the men in a tad (still nothing compared to many shows airing back then) in a more sexual light just helped redress the balance considering how women were often portrayed back in the 90's. Where many shows pandered to the male gaze, but in Buffy it was more for the women in the audience, which imo how it should have been.

 

[Wildfly]

"I admit that later we got too much macho shirtless Angel and Spike goodness (both whom i love, btw and by no means i am complaining, mind you 🙂 ) and the show's focus shifted, but well... we can't really blame joss for following public opinion and giving fanservice, now can we? the public gets what the public wants"

The shows focus never shifted imo. Treating the men in a tad (still nothing compared to many shows airing back then) in a more sexual light just helped redress the balance considering how women were often portrayed back in the 90's. Where many shows pandered to the male gaze, but in Buffy it was more for the women in the audience, which imo how it should have been.

...so the right response to female objectification is to objectify everyone, right?
there is a fault somewhere in that logic 🙄, but now i am a bit distracted by the
thread which has shirtless lindsey and spike in it, so i cannot muster any arguments. i am a weak, weak person with no strong moral core 😉 😀

but seriously, while the show's focus in seasons 1-3 was about the scoobies and growing up, xander, willow and buffy with some angel romancing which wasn't the main point, it is not so in seasons 6-7. again, i am not saying it's a bad thing, but you cannot deny the change.

 

[Kana]

Yeah, I always struggle with this concept because feminism isn't a monolith, so you're not going to satisfy every feminist criteria for a character and to be honest, I wouldn't even try.

I like how honest Joss was at Comic Con about the lack of diversity within the main cast but you know, one step at a time.

For me, I'm more interested in characters rather than some model, ticking all some boxes within some feminist text book. In fact, it's almost kind of sexist to say that Buffy makes poor relationship choices and link that to her gender. Why can't she just be an individual who makes bad choices when it comes to love (that's assuming we should be so hard on her in the first place anyway) as a man wouldn't be getting the same scrutiny for the same reasons.