Joss Whedon the feminist

[Mr Trick]

To be fair though Xander, Willow and Buffy are all socially awkward and they are effectively different character types.

 

[GwenRaiden]

S1 Buffy and Xander are much more outgoing than S1 Willow. Willow purposefully avoided social situations that occur with being a high school student. She was quiet and smart and stuck in her shell, that is until she met Buffy.

 

[EVIL UU]

Willow -- she's smart, so she must be socially awkward and sexless.

How is a character who gets laid more than any other in the series sexless? Explain.

 

[The Bronze]

This doesn't happen to me often on here but these posts make me feel like I must have been watching a completely different show.

the whole joke of Buffy is that she's a brainless bimbo who suddenly gets superpowers.

No it's not. The twist in Buffy is that a small blonde that normally gets eaten in horror films actually fights the monsters.

She's not stupid, but not particularly intelligent, so no threat there. She has no career goals, no aspirations, no self-direction.

She's intelligent but doesn't particularly enjoy education. Have a chat with people that age and I suspect you'll meet a lot of people in a similar position. Just about all of my friends, male and female, are intelligent but struggled to find a career path. Not everyone reaches the age of 11 and knows exactly what they want to do with their life.

She's under male control and has to have a man in her life to make her complete. Nothing particularly feminist at all in this.

No she's not and no she doesn't. Giles is an authority figure to her. This is due to him having a wealth of knowledge that will help in her job. This is knowledge that can help keep her alive and help her save the world. However she's not under his control. When they disagree, more often than not, Buffy will do what she chooses to do. Giles is as more of an advisor than an authority figure and goes even more in that direction as Buffy grows up.

What happened in the few instances we saw The Council try to flex their muscles in Buffy's direction. She told Quentin to leave before she killed him, quit The Council when they wouldn't help Angel and then told them she was calling the shots if they wanted back in to fight Glory.

Willow -- she's smart, so she must be socially awkward and sexless.

Willow's smart and socially awkward to begin with. There's no must about it. People like that do exist. buffy helps to bring her out of her shell. She's never sexless.

Cordelia? The prom queen.

Most schools in America have one. What's the issue? She's also intelligent and joins in the fight against evil. She stands up to peer pressure as well to date who she likes. She's not just "the prom queen".

Joyce? Could she be more 1950s idealized mother? And then she dies.

There's nothing 1950 or idealized about Joyce. She has her own business, is single and often puts herself before her children. A lot of people on this board aren't big fans of Joyce. That's fine though because she's a distinct character and not a stereotype. Also people die a lot in real life as well, even parents.

Sure, Xander is inept and socially awkward -- except that somehow he becomes the foreman of a construction company and a master carpenter. Notice that none of the women have jobs, except Anya? Certainly no career aspirations.

He doesn't somehow become anything. He leaves High School not knowing what he wants to do with his life but aware that further education isn't for him. He then takes up a few different roles, dish washer, barman and then applies for a position in construction. It turns out he's actually good at this and sticks with it earning promotions. That's just how life works for some people.

Joyce has a job. Anya has a job. Professor Walsh has a job. Jenny Calendar has a job. Willow, Tara, Buffy and Dawn were in full time education. Which women are lounging around doing nothing?

The authority figures are all male.

Again Buffy is an authority figure herself. Xander and Willow often look to her for instruction, especially in the early seasons. Giles looks to her to call the shots more and more as time goes on. Willow becomes an authority figure as well later on. The scoobies look to her to lead in Buffy's absence.

Faith -- the Slayer who rejects male authority? Evil. In prison.

She didn't "reject male authority". She killed someone and then tried to blame Buffy. After that she then found herself a male authority figure and set about killing people and trying to destroy the town.

How many of the Council are female? I don't recall any. And certainly not half. So far, we haven't seen any of the coven in England. Just Giles, speaking for them.

We see at least one in Season 5. The whole point of The Council is that it's a traditional English Old Boys club and that's why it's so often rejected.

I mean in the sense of "not being seen as a sexual being. " She wears shapeless jumpers and heavy tights -- the sort of thing that is more appropriate in elementary school -- and moons after Xander, who considers her just another guy. It's not until Oz that anyone looks at her as an interesting and attractive person.

That's life. It is entirely possible to dress badly and be unappreciated by the opposite sex in school. Sometimes even after school as well.

Which by itself is fine. It's pairing it with the "smart girl" that makes it a stereotype -- smart women are not sexy and sexy women are not smart (or deny it, ala Cordelia).

She is sexy though, she just has low confidence. So surely then it's not a stereotype.

Which men are under Buffy's control? For whom is she an authority figure? Beating up on people does not make you an authority figure.

Just about every man on the show views Buffy as an authority figure at one point or another. Seriously just look at how many times she lays out the plan and the others follow her instruction.

None of the female characters in the show have career goals. Only Xander actually has a job. And I didn't say she didn't have a career - I said she had no goals. She never says anything to the effect of, "Being a Slayer is preventing me from achieving my goal of . . . whatever." What is her major?

The women are in higher education to give them the possibility of a better paying career in future. Buffy says often that being a slayer is preventing her from having any career. There's a whole episode in season 3 with Buffy reflecting on how being the slayer stops her from achieving other things in life. She just doesn't dwell on specifics because she knows she has a duty.

Willow does not "make up for that." Willow not only has no job and no career -- Willow is the object lesson about what happens when weak women get too much power. Their emotions just overwhelm them. Why doesn't the Coven send their most powerful witch, imbued with their power? Why do they send a man?

Because Giles knows both the area and person involved?

In reality, most librarians are women.

They didn't recruit a librarian to be a watcher. They inserted Giles into the role under cover. They are a massive organisation capable of pulling a few strings.

You must have forgotten about her chasing after the helicopter and her moping around for several episodes about Riley. Just the fact of Riley . . . Angel -- then the one-night stand guy who dumps her -- then Riley -- then Spike. When is there not a man in her life? And when are those relationships not heteronormative?

What's wrong with straight relationships? What's wrong with being upset when someone you love leaves?

What are the girls majoring in? And why are they all at UC Sunnydale, rather than the truly quality schools that accepted them? As I recall, they just couldn't bear to be separated from their friends.

Because it's on the hellmouth. The reason Willow didn't go to another school is because she's super smart. Realising that an education is of little use if there is no planet to apply for a job on after college. She correctly assesses that saving the world is more important and that she can play a role in that. Also that UC Sunnydale is decent.

And then there's that male gaze. We know that there are male gay characters, but the only gay characters shown kissing or otherwise physically intimate are female.

Male gaze? I can remember topless scenes for Angel, Riley, Spike, Xander and I'm sure there's more. Can you point me to the scene with topless female characters?

 

[Taake]

Don't you think in reality that most of those authority figures would be male?

So wouldn't it have been a great reason to let fiction lead by example and not have most authority figures be male?

Just saying, if you can use your imagination to empower the girl about to die in the alley of countless horror movies, then surely, putting some more women in a boardroom wouldn't be a terrible strain on the imagination? 😉
 

She didn't "reject male authority". She killed someone and then tried to blame Buffy. After that she then found herself a male authority figure and set about killing people and trying to destroy the town.

To be fair, Faith does reject the authority of Wesley and Giles pretty much immediately. Then she kills someone and etc etc... But before all that she is pretty flippant at the male Watchers. (She does trust Gwendolyn Post pretty quickly, maybe because her previous Watcher was female?)

Of course I would rather say that she tries to reject authority in general, not male authority specifically. (At least until the Mayor whose authority she seems to respect).

 

[thetopher]

So wouldn't it have been a great reason to let fiction lead by example and not have most authority figures be male?

I think, since authority figures on the show are shown to be almost universally bad/evil/untrustworthy (even Giles is at a couple of points) then it would've diluted the feminist message a bit if we'd had more female higher ups shown.

Besides, Post and Walsh did happen, and they were just as untrustworthy as their male counterparts.

In fact the only truly positive powerful ally was that priestess woman at the tail end of S7. I guess it was a bit late by then but still.
Also Buffy herself became an authority figure as soon as Dawn was created-so that's most of S5...and S7 since in S6 Buffy isn't that authorotative.

To be fair, Faith does reject the authority of Wesley and Giles pretty much immediately.

Up until Revelations Faith has no problem with Giles and following his lead. It's only after Gwen Post that she starts to re-think the whole 'trusting Watchers authority' thing. Add to that the fact that Giles barely paid her any attention.
I agree that she rejected Wesley right away though.

 

[Taake]

I think, since authority figures on the show are shown to be almost universally bad/evil/untrustworthy (even Giles is at a couple of points) then it would've diluted the feminist message a bit if we'd had more female higher ups shown.

So it would be less feminist if more "higher up" females were shown and were evil as well? Could not disagree more.

Up until Revelations Faith has no problem with Giles and following his lead. It's only after Gwen Post that she starts to re-think the whole 'trusting Watchers authority' thing. Add to that the fact that Giles barely paid her any attention.
I agree that she rejected Wesley right away though.

I kind of just viewed her then as going along with Buffy more than Giles in the start. Just doing the Slayer thing you know 😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But don't you remember she was kinda smitten with Giles? She called him young and a hottie. That explains why she followed his lead initially.

 

[thetopher]

So it would be less feminist if more "higher up" females were shown and were evil as well?

I'm not saying 'less femininst' exactly. But its not anti-feminist.

It's just that I can see the thinking involved- trying to show how a clear traditional, old-fashioned patriachal authority is bad, and that this is what Buffy and her friends fight against.
Maybe the writers didn't think the viewer would be able to untangle the nuance- but that's on them.

 

[Taake]

It's just that I can see the thinking involved- trying to show how a clear traditional, old-fashioned patriachal authority is bad, and that this is what Buffy and her friends fight against.
Maybe the writers didn't think the viewer would be able to untangle the nuance- but that's on them.

I suppose from my way of thinking, it speaks more to the writers and Joss' own lack of nuance, i.e. that the men were the powerful ones, bad or good, was not necessarily a conscious choice so much as a knee-jerk reaction. In other words, I'm not sure I buy that there is a feminist message at all, because I don't think Buffy is fighting patriachal authority so much as authority period. It just happens to look a certain way because of the writers' own conditioning.

But people are allowed to read into it what they will of course. That's how it's given meaning. 🙂

 

[The Bronze]

To be fair, Faith does reject the authority of Wesley and Giles pretty much immediately. Then she kills someone and etc etc... But before all that she is pretty flippant at the male Watchers. (She does trust Gwendolyn Post pretty quickly, maybe because her previous Watcher was female?)

Of course I would rather say that she tries to reject authority in general, not male authority specifically. (At least until the Mayor whose authority she seems to respect).

My take on it was that she was reasonably happy to accept Giles as an authority figure. In a similar way to Buffy rather than Kendra. She was still struggling with the loss of her first watcher of course. Then like you say she accepted Gwen quickly. Then poor old Wes was rejected straight away because of how that all panned out. I don't really see a male / female point to her thinking.

 

[Slay me]

The genius of BtVS and AtS is the complex cast of fabulously flawed characters. Buffy challenged the stereotype of helpless and hapless women in the horror genre. Buffy's romantic life and her inability to set healthy boundaries with friends as she matured often felt like really bad female stereotypes. Angel was the older man a girl with abandonment issues seeks to fill that need. The emotional turmoil that the unbalanced relationship caused was predictable. The writers in a sense allowed this to significantly impact almost everything Buffy did after that. Being emotionally immature is a part of youth, but given the nature of Buffy's life, she remained more unsure of herself and vunerable than one would expect. That's the aspect of her character where she was actually a pretty poor role model.