W
Joss Whedon's leaked Wonder Woman script
- Thread starter Carrie Hopewell
- Start date
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Yeah...David Greenwalt pushed hard for the Angel TV show, not Joss. It's more his baby for the first couple of seasons than Joss'
Even Joss has often said that he couldn't really relate to Angel as a character, so every season the writers would deconstruct him and see what makes him tick; ever year a different aspect would be analyzed and picked over.
Ironically that's what made him such a great character on his own show, the deconstruction made more room for the other characters to breathe and grow 'in-show'; Cordelia and Wesley specifically.
Foxy
I am cookie dough!
I read snippets and yeah it seems quite bad. Most stuff has been said already but I do want to point out that this script was written over 10 years ago. A lot has changed since then!
I am not excusing him or whatever, but I do think a lot of people have forgotten about this!
I am not excusing him or whatever, but I do think a lot of people have forgotten about this!
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
Check out imdb - Joss Whedon's name is not in the writing credits.
Screenplay: Allan Heinberg
Story by: Zach Snyder & Allan Heinberg
and
Story by: Jason Fuchs
(& means working in collaboration, and means brought in after the fact for a rewrite.)
Wonder Woman created by William Moulton Marsten
Joss does not get producer or director credit. Tell me once again why Joss is even being mentioned?
^^
Joss is not credited in the 2009, 2011 or 2014 screenplays either. Does imdb have this wrong or is there some unproduced Wonder Woman script somewhere that Joss has leaked for a movie yet to be produced?
Screenplay: Allan Heinberg
Story by: Zach Snyder & Allan Heinberg
and
Story by: Jason Fuchs
(& means working in collaboration, and means brought in after the fact for a rewrite.)
Wonder Woman created by William Moulton Marsten
Joss does not get producer or director credit. Tell me once again why Joss is even being mentioned?
^^
Joss is not credited in the 2009, 2011 or 2014 screenplays either. Does imdb have this wrong or is there some unproduced Wonder Woman script somewhere that Joss has leaked for a movie yet to be produced?
Carrie Hopewell
It's not the 2017 Wonder Woman movie.
All I have to say is.... there's a reason this didn't get made. 😉 It was rejected by the studio. Joss got told it wasn't good enough and buh-bye. Because it's not, it's a pile of utter ****!
Also, this leaked copy is an unfinished draft of a screenplay, so this was never going to be the finished product anyway, even if it had not been rejected. Ultimately it would have been improved and refined, probably by other screenwriters' inputs. That doesn't make the original not utter **** though. 🙄
Also, this leaked copy is an unfinished draft of a screenplay, so this was never going to be the finished product anyway, even if it had not been rejected. Ultimately it would have been improved and refined, probably by other screenwriters' inputs. That doesn't make the original not utter **** though. 🙄
Fuffy Baith
2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member
I remember watching Collider Movie Talk on YouTube, like a month ago, and hearing them talk about Whedon's old WW script. One of the guys use to work at WB at the time and had read Whedon's script and he said it wasn't that good, for various reasons.
If feminism is about equality between women and men, then would it be feminist if you over sexualize the men with the women? That's what I like about the new movie. The only somewhat nudity you get is from Chris Pine as Steve Trevor.
If feminism is about equality between women and men, then would it be feminist if you over sexualize the men with the women? That's what I like about the new movie. The only somewhat nudity you get is from Chris Pine as Steve Trevor.
thrasherpix
Scooby
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It's already normal for women to sexualize men the same way. Heck, I was surprised when I found out Ayn Rand got downright ridiculous about it (I expected it for romance novels and the like, but not from her in that one fiction book of hers I tried to get through).
The problem, at least from my perspective, is that women tend to be relegated to eye candy and such as their primary aspect, whereas men can be sexy AND so much more at the same time, and having so much else to develop then men can get away with not being particularly hot looking or sexy in some other way (that said, I can't ever see a ship like Clem + Buffy taking off like Spuffy or Bangel, especially not among the female demographic). And a man can save other men, but a woman is (at least in stories, which often filter into social expectations) thought to "owe" a guy for doing the same...even worse, a guy saved by a woman is generally played for laughs or awkward (though I think male writers are more likely to take it seriously than female authors), and like the trope of conflating women with children (all to be saved by the menfolk), it implies women are less capable than men and thus less deserving of equality. It also teaches women that her power is in men rather than herself.
And another problem is the "evil is sexy" (seems guys like badness, too, though that villainous females tend to be seductive, show more skin, and as a rule are portrayed as having bigger breasts than good girls only increases that trend). When I was a small child, it got problematic a couple of times because when we children were reenacting some movie, the boys wanted to divide into "good and bad guys" while many girls wanted to be the prettiest character (as in who the boys thought was prettiest) without regards to whether she was a heroine or villain. This isn't as shallow as it may seem (no more than dividing teams into white and black hats anyway), it's just girls generally learn to prioritize differently based on the media and even the real life examples around her. And while sexy is a bonus for a man (though bordering near crucial when seen through the female gaze), it's crucial for a woman (at least that's the message). Men are ultimately measured by what they can accomplish while women are measured by how appealing they are to men...because gods forbid they have to do things for themselves.
I'm independent, and my own mother sees that as impressive as the blind person who has other senses sharpened to an incredibly degree...that is she can grudgingly admire it, but she's more inclined to pity than envy me, as it was her lesson to me (though not explicitly stated) that men's power is in the world, while a woman's power is in men (though she's not submissive, but she is--or at least once was--seductive).
It's funny...when I was 10, I was assigned to rewrite a faerie tale from some other perspective than the heroine's. I chose Vasilisa the Beautiful in which I portrayed Vasilisa as a conniving sorceress while Baba Yaga was a kindly crone she learned from. And then Vasilisa enchanted the tsar (rather than him falling in love with her beauty as stated in the tale) and then portrayed Baba Yaga as a demon as BY was the only one who could stop Vasilisa now, and thus turned BY into an enemy of the state so that the crone had to flee into the wilderness where she was a magical rebel hero defending the oppressed while evading the law (and helping others do so). Two teachers and another adult raved on how original it was (and there were many positive comments by the teacher grading left on it as well) and for once I got high praise in school. The point being that having the heroine be ugly but someone to root for while the wicked witch was beautiful was downright mind blowing to them as that's not how it's done, and they were amazed I even thought of it, especially at the age of 10. (In retrospect I realize that such occurred to me because of my mother being a former model who bragged of evil things she did and how easily she could wrap men around her finger while demonizing my grandmother, and that just got transferred to my rewrite of the faerie tale--though reading material as The Witch Next Door also helped to inspire me.)
See also beauty equals goodness
One problem is trying to avoid this is going the opposite way to remove anything that is sexy about her (for example, automatically dismissing Lara Croft simply because she has big boobs as if that negates all else about the character) while men are still allowed to be sexy and everything else. If a woman being sexy and attractive is made into some sin then even many women aren't going to like her or want to be her then, and it ends up stigmatizing and limiting women in a different way. From my POV, it's not that sexiness is bad, but that it's required for women, and women find it much harder to break out of that limitation. Women should be as free as men to be sexy and/or anything else, and the definition of sexy shouldn't be so limited.
The problem, at least from my perspective, is that women tend to be relegated to eye candy and such as their primary aspect, whereas men can be sexy AND so much more at the same time, and having so much else to develop then men can get away with not being particularly hot looking or sexy in some other way (that said, I can't ever see a ship like Clem + Buffy taking off like Spuffy or Bangel, especially not among the female demographic). And a man can save other men, but a woman is (at least in stories, which often filter into social expectations) thought to "owe" a guy for doing the same...even worse, a guy saved by a woman is generally played for laughs or awkward (though I think male writers are more likely to take it seriously than female authors), and like the trope of conflating women with children (all to be saved by the menfolk), it implies women are less capable than men and thus less deserving of equality. It also teaches women that her power is in men rather than herself.
And another problem is the "evil is sexy" (seems guys like badness, too, though that villainous females tend to be seductive, show more skin, and as a rule are portrayed as having bigger breasts than good girls only increases that trend). When I was a small child, it got problematic a couple of times because when we children were reenacting some movie, the boys wanted to divide into "good and bad guys" while many girls wanted to be the prettiest character (as in who the boys thought was prettiest) without regards to whether she was a heroine or villain. This isn't as shallow as it may seem (no more than dividing teams into white and black hats anyway), it's just girls generally learn to prioritize differently based on the media and even the real life examples around her. And while sexy is a bonus for a man (though bordering near crucial when seen through the female gaze), it's crucial for a woman (at least that's the message). Men are ultimately measured by what they can accomplish while women are measured by how appealing they are to men...because gods forbid they have to do things for themselves.
I'm independent, and my own mother sees that as impressive as the blind person who has other senses sharpened to an incredibly degree...that is she can grudgingly admire it, but she's more inclined to pity than envy me, as it was her lesson to me (though not explicitly stated) that men's power is in the world, while a woman's power is in men (though she's not submissive, but she is--or at least once was--seductive).
It's funny...when I was 10, I was assigned to rewrite a faerie tale from some other perspective than the heroine's. I chose Vasilisa the Beautiful in which I portrayed Vasilisa as a conniving sorceress while Baba Yaga was a kindly crone she learned from. And then Vasilisa enchanted the tsar (rather than him falling in love with her beauty as stated in the tale) and then portrayed Baba Yaga as a demon as BY was the only one who could stop Vasilisa now, and thus turned BY into an enemy of the state so that the crone had to flee into the wilderness where she was a magical rebel hero defending the oppressed while evading the law (and helping others do so). Two teachers and another adult raved on how original it was (and there were many positive comments by the teacher grading left on it as well) and for once I got high praise in school. The point being that having the heroine be ugly but someone to root for while the wicked witch was beautiful was downright mind blowing to them as that's not how it's done, and they were amazed I even thought of it, especially at the age of 10. (In retrospect I realize that such occurred to me because of my mother being a former model who bragged of evil things she did and how easily she could wrap men around her finger while demonizing my grandmother, and that just got transferred to my rewrite of the faerie tale--though reading material as The Witch Next Door also helped to inspire me.)
See also beauty equals goodness
One problem is trying to avoid this is going the opposite way to remove anything that is sexy about her (for example, automatically dismissing Lara Croft simply because she has big boobs as if that negates all else about the character) while men are still allowed to be sexy and everything else. If a woman being sexy and attractive is made into some sin then even many women aren't going to like her or want to be her then, and it ends up stigmatizing and limiting women in a different way. From my POV, it's not that sexiness is bad, but that it's required for women, and women find it much harder to break out of that limitation. Women should be as free as men to be sexy and/or anything else, and the definition of sexy shouldn't be so limited.