Joyce and Angel

[white avenger]

We all know that Joyce and Spike were friends, that she felt almost motherly love for him. The question is, did she ever like Angel? The few times that they were on screen together, she seemed at best ill at ease to be around him and at worst almost openly hostile, despite the fact that he, not Spike, was the one at that time with the soul.

 

[VisionGuy]

She definitely didn't like him. She's the one who drove him out of town. Well not really but she didn't help. LOL I don't understand why she did like Spike even though he was evil. Maybe she didn't know Spike was evil. Or maybe she found Spike a lot more likeable.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Well, the whole time she knew him, he was involved with her daughter in some way. He was obviously older than Buffy (though until the vampire thing came up, she probably thought early-to-mid 20s, not 200s), and she couldn't be quite sure what his intentions were, especially after the shenanigans in S2. Spike, on the other hand, wasn't overly involved in Buffy's life early on; Joyce didn't even quite remember him when she saw him the second time. Then the third time, he was torn up about Dru and her maternal instincts kicked in.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

And Joyce passed before anything REALLY happened between Buffy and Spike... so she was far more over protective and less inclined to like Angel since she knew there was something going on between him and Buffy.

 

[Joyce Summers]

I think it was because she met Spike on a basic 'I know what you are even if I'm slightly confused about the situation' level. She knew the deal with him, that he was a bad person and not to be trusted. But every other time she met him, she got a glimpse of his human, and therefore very vulnerable, nature. He retains the same kind of absurdly polite attitude in Becoming Part Two when he says 'You hit with me an axe. Remember? 'Get the hell away from my daughter'' and the second time he breaks down in front of her as he goes on about the tragedy of his love life. They connect both times. In becoming, they connect over how this is a strange situation for both of them- they were both being let into Buffy's life at the same time. And the next time they shared feelings over loves gone wrong.

Both James and Kristine have said numerous times that there's an inexplainable chemistry between Joyce and Spike. Kristine said something about she knows how dangerous he is, but she sees that slightly vulnerable and human side to him and finds it endearing. And as James said 'Spike...well maybe he just needs a Mom'.

Angel on the other hand was met on the 'my daughter's boyfriend' level so her defences immediately went up when she first met him because all she could see was an attractive older man who obviously had a sexual interest in her young daughter. And that is going to make her instinctively hostile towards him. I suppose the exchange in Passion didn't really help any. And when she finally found out what he was, she does become fairly accepting of him as she knows the situation (As for example 'Choices' where he, pretending to be Angelus, turns up with Faith she greets him quite amiably. And actually seems rather flustered and flattered when he compliments her hair). The Prom is the only episode where she directly faces him and this is not so much because of a dislike of Angel, but a concern for her daughter. She knew the relationship would be bad for her, and that it did have to end. Even Angel accepted that.

I mean even though she did like Spike, she still goes into total parental worry mode when she finds out Spike likes Buffy. So I don't think she ever specifically disliked Angel as Angel but rather disliked him in the capacity of 'this is *not* a healthy relationship for my daughter'

 

[Xin Rong]

she had the standard mothers way of looking at him as her daughters much older boyfriend who took her virginity aswell lets not forget, what would you expect her to do bake him a cake lol

Also spike and joyce were just funny

 

[palabravampiress]

I'm gonna throw in a "ditto" and say that I pretty much agree with what's being said here. I think Joyce was wary of Angel because she never saw his good side. Instead, she saw his totally-unhealthy-for-my-teenage-daughter side. Of course that raised her hackles a little bit. Joyce's internal alarm system started going off when Spike became interested in Buffy, too. Who can blame the lady? My mom wouldn't pick an undead man for me, either.

As far as Spike and Joyce go, well, they had a neat relationship. I think Spike needed a mom. He was a mama's boy in life, after all, and even after he was turned, he wanted to turn his mom so she could tag along on the Spike and Dru inaugural killing spree of 1880. Killing his mom (twice) had a profound effect on Spike. I think it aided in the transition from sensitive William to Big Bad Spike. In Joyce, I think he saw a mother who was coping with the supernatural. I always saw Spike as sort of the Buffyverse answer to Little Women's Teddy. He badly wanted the female companionship and the sense of family that both Joyce and Dawn provided. He loved them because they were normal and decent and caring people in an abnormal, indecent, and cruel world. They treated him like a man, so he treated them like family.

For Joyce's part, well, I think Joyce needed a friend -- a friend who was also on the periphery of Buffy's life. Joyce and Spike both knew what it was like to be on the outside looking in. They also knew what divorce was like. What else are you going to call it when you split from your partner of 100 years? Spike always had a very decent, classy, human side to him. Because of how he felt about Joyce, that came out around her very quickly (far more quickly than it could around a slayer). Joyce was able to bond with William, I think. William was the sentimental man who came around to help Buffy save the world just cuz he liked the little things in it, the man who came around to talk about love with Joyce over hot chocolate and marshmallows, and any other little interactions that he had with her. I think part of her saw that William needed a mom, too, and that must have been a welcome feeling, with Buffy constantly pulling away.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

The first time Joyce and Angel met, Buffy lied about who Angel was. Joyce didn't even know they were dating until after Angel turned evil. Then, she met him for the second time and he just happens to mention he slept with her daughter.
Come on, put yourself in Joyce's shoes, if your daughter was lying about a man and you had to hear he slept with your teenage daughter from him cos she (the daughter) reluctantly forget to tell you about that, would you still like that guy?
Besides, Buffy made him look pretty bad after he went evil, after all, she told Joyce he was stalking her.

 

[Joyce Summers]

She didn't make him *look* pretty bad, he *was* pretty bad. And then next time there's any reference to Angel for Joyce is Becoming Part Two and the woman is just getting more confused by the second. I do love that scene. The fact that Spike and Buffy are practically speaking in code and Joyce is trying her hardest.
Spike: [To Buffy, deadly serious] Me and Dru for Angel
Joyce: [To Buffy, confused] Angel your boyfriend?

And then we have Lover's Walk where we've had a nice bonding moment between Spike and Joyce about loves gone wrong and then Angel attacks. And it's confusion central again. As Angel, who last time Joyce checked was bad, is invited in by Buffy who has attacked Spike, who last time Joyce checked wasn't too evil. Hence Joyce's 'Oh, okay, I'm confused again'. Gotta love the added 'again'.

Thought just occurred- Joyce never got to meet ensouled Spike. I think that would have been nice. Especially when he was like Crazy Spike. I think she could have been a nice motherly and comforting presence for him. Would have been nice to see if the chemistry between them changed as well, if at all.