Joyce and memories of Dawn

Anya2012

Anya2012

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I just had a thought whilst reading another thread...what if the memories the monks planted in Joyce gave her the tumor? She didn't start getting sick til Dawn "arrived" its too much of a coincidence for my liking.

What do you guys think?
 
Great idea. I wouldn't discount it. Yet, as Slayerette said, what about the others? They weren't affected by the memories being "implanted." Maybe it just affected Joyce differently.
 
Clem Rocks said:
Is she older than Giles? It might only affect people of a certain age.
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Nah, Giles is older. I always thought of Joyce as being late 30s when the show started. So, say Joyce had Buffy around age 22. That would make her 38 at the beginning of S1.

It's implied Giles was around in the 70s, right? Like, as a teenager in his 'Ripper' experimenting with magic days? So, that would make him born around 1960? That would make him early 40s at the beginning of S1? Not much older than Joyce, really.
 
Well, perhaps it was a huge increase of tumors that year that we never got to know about.
The spell must have done something to people brains after all. Not so it effected everyone but it might not have been so healthy...

But personally I really don't think so.
It was very important for the show that Joyce's death was something unrelated to all the magic and unnatural things that was happening.
That it was something that Buffy had absolutely no control over, something she just couldn't do anything about.

Having the tumor caused by the spell doesn't feel right in that context.

/SK
 
I agree with SK. They made a big deal about the illness being natural, therefore Buffy couldn't do anything to prevent it, even when she tried to determine whether anything supernatural caused it.

The spell/memories regarding Dawn would definitely be considered supernatural so I don't think it fits with the notion that Joyce died a natural death.
 
I thought about that possibility as well! I really liked Joyce a lot and just like the characters, I had a problem accepting the situation.
But, as much as I'd like to believe that, I still doubt that magic had anything to do with Joyce's fate. As sad as it was, it was really important for the Scoobies (especially Buffy) and their journey to adulthood, if you will. They knew how to stop apocalypses, fight evil and all, but, still couldn't accept the basic facts of life, as we can see from their reactions and how they tried to blame it on something supernatural. But, things, sometimes, happen for no apparent reason! That's life! And, maybe, this is why life is both beautiful and really, really scary! Magic, or no magic.

Just my two cents...
 
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Angel's Avenger said:
I just had a thought whilst reading another thread...what if the memories the monks planted in Joyce gave her the tumor? She didn't start getting sick til Dawn "arrived" its too much of a coincidence for my liking.

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...


i've never actually thought about it,it does make some sense,
but fate is fate.
 
It's definitely not an age thing, in my opinion. Let's not forget, the spell wasn't only affecting Buffy and the Gang, it affected many more people, the spell was done on the entire world. Anyone who supposedly had contact with Dawn in the fake memories, and since she surely wasn't just locked in her house 24/7, in those 14 fake memory years she must've certainly have met quite some people that were also surely older than Joyce, would have had a higher tumou risk.
Interesting theory, though.
 
^ And, if we think about age here, Angel is WAY older than Joyce and Giles and he wasn't affected.

I know, I know, it would probably be different considering he's like dead and all...just sayin' (sw)
 
Angel's Avenger said:
what if the memories the monks planted in Joyce gave her the tumor?What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Nice theory, but seems to be flawed in execution.

There are so many instances of memory alterations, new memories, memory wipes and other messing around that, if true, everyone should be a vegetable; with tumors growing out of their heads like eyes on a potato.
 
sk73 said:
But personally I really don't think so.
It was very important for the show that Joyce's death was something unrelated to all the magic and unnatural things that was happening.
That it was something that Buffy had absolutely no control over, something she just couldn't do anything about.

Having the tumor caused by the spell doesn't feel right in that context.

/SK
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was going to say.

Aside from this context, it just doesn't make much sense that the Buffyverse would have never explored this alley. Had Dawn's arrival caused Joyce's illness, I'm sure it would have been addressed, or at least hinted at. But that never happens. All throughout, it is stressed that this was a NATURAL death by NATURAL means, that nothing mystical or magical made it happen, that there was no demon Buffy could fight off and save her mother.

So my gut feeling is no. The two are coincidence.
 
I like the idea, but like others have said, it would kind of cheapen Joyce's death.

Anyway, if that was the case, and say that Joyce didn't die, I'd look at it like this: Joyce became ill because she had a much bigger memory alteration. The entire world had their memories changed, sure, but maybe just to the extent that they bumped into Dawn in the grocery store, or sat with Dawn at lunch. Joyce would have underwent 14 or whatever years worth of memory alterations. Giving birth, raising a child, memories for thousands of days changed. Same for Buffy, except Buffy wouldn't have been affected due to Slayer strength. Also in this scenario, the Scoobs wouldn't have been affected since they'd only known Buffy for 4 years at that point--their pre-Sophomore year would have been Buffy and Dawn free.
 
I would have to agree with crashing doors,apart from Buffy Joyce would have had the biggest memory change as she would have had Dawn around her full time as a child - buffy would have been at school so for her only bits of memeory woul needed to be added , but also her memoy would be telling her that her body would have a lot of physical changes (pregnancy ) that she never actually experienced.
It would have been interesting to know if anything had happened to Hank, but in retrospect he wouldn't have needed as many memories either as he has not been around.

I also think that if Joyce wasn't killed off, Buffy would never have jumped
 
I would go for the natural death idea, it just happened as it does in real life. Perhaps it was time for her character to leave the show. I know the first time I watched the death scene and after it was quite emotional.
 
didnt joyce a few times before her death realise dawn wasnt her daughter.

It seemed to me the memory implant didnt properly work on joyce and that was the cause of her tumour, to me it seemed fairly obvious but I guess I am the only one that thinks this.

The only other people who knew dawn wasnt real were those that had their brains sucked by glory.
 
chrcol said:
didnt joyce a few times before her death realise dawn wasnt her daughter.

It seemed to me the memory implant didnt properly work on joyce and that was the cause of her tumour, to me it seemed fairly obvious but I guess I am the only one that thinks this.

The only other people who knew dawn wasnt real were those that had their brains sucked by glory.
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It's one idea but maybe Joyce got her tumour from her mobile phone? Joyce knew that Dawn wasn't her natural daughter because her tumour gave her brief periods of insanity. But it doesn't matter. Dawn will always be her little girl
 
sk73 said:
But personally I really don't think so.
It was very important for the show that Joyce's death was something unrelated to all the magic and unnatural things that was happening.
That it was something that Buffy had absolutely no control over, something she just couldn't do anything about.

Having the tumor caused by the spell doesn't feel right in that context.
Click to expand...

I agree. To me, Joyce was important for the show because she kept it believable. Loosing a parent is something nearly every single one among us will go through one day. Joyce was the much-needed link to the normal world, the world we can all relate to, both in her life and in her death.
 
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