Joyce the parent

[Mumrik]

Joyce didn't actually kick her out of the house. Really, does anyone think she meant that? She even says, "Mom's not perfect, ok, I handled it badly." In the morning, she went to check Buffy's room for her, probably to appologize! We love so many characters for their faults yet are coming down on Joyce for hers. She wasn't a single parents for very long - from how I understand it was right before Sunnydale. She was learning too. Anyway, telling Buffy that she couldn't come back if she left the house was her last ditch effort to get her daughter to stay after physically being stopped by Buffy. That scene was beautiful, as if balanced Joyce the mother with Joyce the person. If she wouldn't have tried to have given Buffy a bluff at the last moment in such an authoritive mother tone then I could see her being criticised for that, too.

Even if she didn't mean it, hearing your parent say something like that hurts beyond belief. And if you hear that, you will take it seriously. We all say things we regret later, but this is something you don't just forget and forgive. At the very least, it puts a huge strain on a relationship, even if it is salvageable.

The problem with Joyce, I think, is that we can't just judge her as a person, there's always "she's a parent" in the back of your head and through that is automatically held to a higher standard (which I think is appropriate) because the choices she makes don't influence just her life, while that problem simply doesn't exist with the other, childless characters.

 

[zobothehobo]

Those two things actually make me furious about Joyce. The fact that she would take Ted's side a man over her daughter is just sick imo. I have seen many situations like that in real life with friends and trust me it is never pretty.

My mom did (does) that with her husband and her children. I can barely watch Ted because it makes me so angry. When someone decides to have a parent, they agree to put their child first. My mother acts like we don't have voices, opinions, points of view, the right to respect, etc from her husband. Joyce did that with Buffy and Ted and it makes me more angry than I can ever describe. I don't care if it was mystical or whatever, it's a subject that hurts me.

There are other issues though to me that make me angry with Joyce with her parenting. I know parenting is the hardest job in the world because there's no "right" way to do it, but there sure are wrong ways... and it's impossible to really know what those are. I'm a strong believer in individualism in terms of parenting. Each child, each parent, each family has a different specific "way" of parenting that works best for them. It's impossible for someone to say "this is the way to do it."

What struck me about Joyce, the first thing I noticed about her, and the first time I decided I really didn't care much for her parenting was when she referenced her parenting books the first time. I believe it was in The Harvest and she says "no. The books all say I should get used to saying it." Like I said, I'm a strong individualized parenting believer... And that was like "oh. She's one of those parents." After that, I'll be completely honest, I never did give her a "fair" shot. She made a bad impression on me and never did anything remarkable to make me feel like she deserved a "fair" shot.

 

[Zeppo]

Even if she didn't mean it, hearing your parent say something like that hurts beyond belief. And if you hear that, you will take it seriously. We all say things we regret later, but this is something you don't just forget and forgive. At the very least, it puts a huge strain on a relationship, even if it is salvageable.

Again, I didn't say it was right, I'm saying what was left? After exhausting the other avenues what else did she have to try and get her daughter to stay home and be safe like a good parent would want? I dunno if she thought it would work. Do you think Buffy would've came home after killing Angel had her mother not said that? Buffy said some not things to her mother in the kitchen that her mother dealt with, she didn't hide, she fought - even physically! Joyce said some not nice things in the kitchen that Buffy ran away from and didn't address until after a whole summer, so in a way Joyce dealt with the situation of Mom finding out the truth better than Buffy did.

 

[randiann]

[MENTION=11238]KellGreen[/MENTION]
Thank you! And bravo for bring able to admit you don't know what you are doing; I don't think any of us do. Not all the time.

Joyce did the best any normal parent could do in such an extraordinary situation. I can't imagine being a single mom, recovering from a divorce, with a"problem" teenager who is constantly in trouble at school, and then my kid saying, by the way, I kill bad guys and save the world. We then get more back story that said child has a history of "mental problems" (normal again) and that mom has already dealt with having to hospitalize said kid because of this. Given the circumstances, I think joyce acted as well as could be expected. She isn't superman. Parents screw up. Lots. Some a LOT more than others. Joyce did the best she could, she's a loving mom who tries to be there for her daughter, and she's doing it alone.

[MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION], I think it's really harsh to judge her just because she turned to a parenting book for advice. She's dealing with a teen who, on the surface, is the definition of a bad seed. She has no other parent to turn to, and it appears she doesn't have a lot of family/friends to rely on. She was out of ideas, and looking for a little guidance herself. She's at least trying.

 

[KellGreen]

[MENTION=11238]Joyce did the best any normal parent could do in such an extraordinary situation. I can't imagine being a single mom, recovering from a divorce, with a"problem" teenager who is constantly in trouble at school, and then my kid saying, by the way, I kill bad guys and save the world. We then get more back story that said child has a history of "mental problems" (normal again) and that mom has already dealt with having to hospitalize said kid because of this. Given the circumstances, I think joyce acted as well as could be expected. She isn't superman. Parents screw up. Lots. Some a LOT more than others. Joyce did the best she could, she's a loving mom who tries to be there for her daughter, and she's doing it alone... She's dealing with a teen who, on the surface, is the definition of a bad seed. She has no other parent to turn to, and it appears she doesn't have a lot of family/friends to rely on. She was out of ideas, and looking for a little guidance herself. She's at least trying.

Yeah...what DID happen Joyce's parents for instance? I never really thought about it, but i don't recall ever hearing mention of them😕

The first time through i was not a parent...now, rewatching, i am, so...

Okay... as a single mom with really no support system, here's some more thoughts....
1. The laundry. I've been trained to use spray-n-wash for stains. There is just NO WAY she did not notice something...so she had to consciously choose the lovely land of denial...not just the blood, but mud and grass stains from rolling around in the cemetery during fights and whatnot...(off topic...i recently realised that i have been somehow NOT looking for stains on the back of my daughters uniform shirts... ugh..she's a tomboy and gets stains absolutely EVERYWHERE)
2. My mom and my older sister had THOSE kinds of fights...ya know, things being thrown, broken, threats and ultimatums... I have no idea what will come in the future, but...if I ended up in the sit. where Joyce tells her not to return...I'm going with. Call me a "helicopter mother" or whatnot...but if i find out my only child is going into something that potentially dangerous...i'm there with whatever weapons i can manage to carry, even if it's only frying pans and kitchen knives.

Other things: I gotta give Joyce love for School Hard and her intiution to go back and crack Spike in the head with the Ax

To end my ramblings...I think she was learning on the job, as most all parents do and she did mean well. Her achilles heel seems to be loss of control over circumstances - that really is when she doesn't do so well (at least at first). I see that because that + fear = me crazy😱

 

[Goby]

BTW, do we know that Joyce actually did Buffy's laundry? At 16, my son well be doing not only his own laundry, but mine too. At 9 he's already emptying the dishwasher and the dryer.

One thing we're not giving Joyce credit for is her choice in Homeowner's Insurance. Somehow everything was always replaced, and she never complained about the deductible.

And KellGreen.... may I suggest using a natural laundry soap, like Ms. Meyer's, Seventh Generation, or BioKleen, instead of Spray N Wash? Along with a 1/4 cup of borax, it is really great on stains, smells wonderful, and is good for the environment. 😉

EDIT: BioKleen is HE washer safer. 😀

 

[PassionBecoming]

One thing we're not giving Joyce credit for is her choice in Homeowner's Insurance. Somehow everything was always replaced, and she never complained about the deductible. QUOTE]

I always wondered about this! Must be one HIGH deductible by now!

Is Joyce the parent of the year? No. Has she put up with a LOT of crap and taken it moderately well? I think so.

The whole denial-mode thing always bothered me, like in "Gingerbread" (I think that's the ep) and when Buffy mentions her washing blood out of her clothes. Crimany, if I was finding blood, guts, rips, and other crazy things on my kids' clothes, we would definitely be having a discussion!

 

[sisterofmercy]

BTW, do we know that Joyce actually did Buffy's laundry? At 16, my son well be doing not only his own laundry, but mine too. At 9 he's already emptying the dishwasher and the dryer.

One thing we're not giving Joyce credit for is her choice in Homeowner's Insurance. Somehow everything was always replaced, and she never complained about the deductible.

And KellGreen.... may I suggest using a natural laundry soap, like Ms. Meyer's, Seventh Generation, or BioKleen, instead of Spray N Wash? Along with a 1/4 cup of borax, it is really great on stains, smells wonderful, and is good for the environment. 😉

Well the fact that Buffy asked her mother how she hadn't noticed suggests that her mother was the one to do the laundry, otherwise it would have been a redundant thing to say (which given the situation is still entirely possible I guess).

Not all families make their kids do the washing, I've never had to when at home and I'm nearly 19. I think my mum was always concerned that we'd do something wrong and break the machine/ruin our clothes.

 

[VisionGirl]

The problem with Joyce, I think, is that we can't just judge her as a person, there's always "she's a parent" in the back of your head and through that is automatically held to a higher standard (which I think is appropriate) because the choices she makes don't influence just her life, while that problem simply doesn't exist with the other, childless characters.

Even though her actions never (directly or indirectly) led to another's death, unlike some other Buffy characters?

My mom did (does) that with her husband and her children. I can barely watch Ted because it makes me so angry. When someone decides to have a parent, they agree to put their child first. My mother acts like we don't have voices, opinions, points of view, the right to respect, etc from her husband. Joyce did that with Buffy and Ted and it makes me more angry than I can ever describe. I don't care if it was mystical or whatever, it's a subject that hurts me.

I can completely understand that. I did forget about Ted drugging their food or whatever, & I completely don't hold Gingerbread against her either, but obviously our own personal experiences color our watching. The Body is really hard for me since I've lost a parent; Seeing Red is also really difficult for me to debate about objectively since I've been in Buffy's shoes.

There are other issues though to me that make me angry with Joyce with her parenting. I know parenting is the hardest job in the world because there's no "right" way to do it, but there sure are wrong ways... and it's impossible to really know what those are. I'm a strong believer in individualism in terms of parenting. Each child, each parent, each family has a different specific "way" of parenting that works best for them. It's impossible for someone to say "this is the way to do it."

What struck me about Joyce, the first thing I noticed about her, and the first time I decided I really didn't care much for her parenting was when she referenced her parenting books the first time. I believe it was in The Harvest and she says "no. The books all say I should get used to saying it." Like I said, I'm a strong individualized parenting believer... And that was like "oh. She's one of those parents." After that, I'll be completely honest, I never did give her a "fair" shot. She made a bad impression on me and never did anything remarkable to make me feel like she deserved a "fair" shot.

I respectfully disagree. You have this completely vulnerable, dependent baby, and you're expected to know how to take care of him or her. I remember coming home from the hospital going "OK, what now?". My husband and I laughed with incredulity that they would even let us take him home! Somehow we managed. We got information and advice from a lot of sources, yes, including books! We synthesized all that info together & developed a parenting style that fit our beliefs & temperments, as well as our individual children. There is no Instruction Manual for Parenting, but there's nothing wrong with consulting books written by experts on any childrearing/parenting subject. It's possibly wrong to strictly adhere to one specific method (the parents here may know what I'm talking about when I mention Babywise/Gary Ezzo as an example).

2. My mom and my older sister had THOSE kinds of fights...ya know, things being thrown, broken, threats and ultimatums... I have no idea what will come in the future, but...if I ended up in the sit. where Joyce tells her not to return...I'm going with. Call me a "helicopter mother" or whatnot...but if i find out my only child is going into something that potentially dangerous...i'm there with whatever weapons i can manage to carry, even if it's only frying pans and kitchen knives.

Other things: I gotta give Joyce love for School Hard and her intiution to go back and crack Spike in the head with the Ax

To end my ramblings...I think she was learning on the job, as most all parents do and she did mean well. Her achilles heel seems to be loss of control over circumstances - that really is when she doesn't do so well (at least at first). I see that because that + fear = me crazy😱

While I'm not crazy about the "if you leave, don't come back" speech, I'm sure that during my sibling's tumultuous adolescence, my parents said some things they regret. I'm sure that my sibling did too. It was a crazy situation, & I know my parents were sick with worry for her due to the choices she was making. I'm sure they didn't handle it perfectly. Doesn't make them terrible parents.

And I love Joyce in School Hard! As well as how she stood up for Buffy with Snyder in the beginning of season 3.

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

BTW, do we know that Joyce actually did Buffy's laundry? At 16, my son well be doing not only his own laundry, but mine too. At 9 he's already emptying the dishwasher and the dryer.

Will you please talk to my kids? 😀

One thing we're not giving Joyce credit for is her choice in Homeowner's Insurance. Somehow everything was always replaced, and she never complained about the deductible.

ROFL!

And KellGreen.... may I suggest using a natural laundry soap, like Ms. Meyer's, Seventh Generation, or BioKleen, instead of Spray N Wash? Along with a 1/4 cup of borax, it is really great on stains, smells wonderful, and is good for the environment. 😉

EDIT: BioKleen is HE washer safer. 😀

I love OxyClean for stains (the powder), and nothing can beat the whitening effects of the sun! And I do use OxyClean in my HE frontloader; I also use vinegar for softening (mainly on the cloth diapers, but other things too) and sometimes eco-friendly fabric softener. I have made my own detergent before, but haven't yet since I bought the front loader.
Wow, that's off-topic, isn't it? 😉

 

[BuffyHead]

BTW, do we know that Joyce actually did Buffy's laundry? At 16, my son well be doing not only his own laundry, but mine too. At 9 he's already emptying the dishwasher and the dryer. 😀

well, buffy does say "how many times did you wash blood out of my clothing and you didnt figure it out?

 

[prophecygrrl]

I may be remembering wrong, but about the Ted thing- wasn't he drugging everybody, including Joyce? I can't say I blame her for being on his side if that was the case. And when the police came to Buffy's house after Ted was "killed", Joyce immediately tries to cover for Buffy, even though at that point she thought her fiance was murdered by her own daughter. I think that says a lot about her priorities. She's trying to protect her daughter.

 

[Mumrik]

Again, I didn't say it was right, I'm saying what was left? After exhausting the other avenues what else did she have to try and get her daughter to stay home and be safe like a good parent would want? I dunno if she thought it would work. Do you think Buffy would've came home after killing Angel had her mother not said that? Buffy said some not things to her mother in the kitchen that her mother dealt with, she didn't hide, she fought - even physically! Joyce said some not nice things in the kitchen that Buffy ran away from and didn't address until after a whole summer, so in a way Joyce dealt with the situation of Mom finding out the truth better than Buffy did.

I don't know. I'm not a parent, I don't know what one would even feel and think in such a situation, but I believe telling your child they can never come back is not something that should ever be resorted to. And that is the last thing I'm going to say on this.

Even though her actions never (directly or indirectly) led to another's death, unlike some other Buffy characters?

I don't put Spike, Angel, Giles (even though I think he did the right thing) or Willow on a pedestal (and think Willow should have gotten more of a punishment than just a summer holiday in England and think it was poorly handled.), so I don't see how that matters. I simply think she's a parent and parents should be held to a higher standard than childless people because they shape someone else's life in a very big way and Joyce did poorly, IMO. She chose to turn a blind eye to blood in her daughter's laundry even though she knew Buffy had a violent history. If she ignored it the first time, that's just a human mistake, but the second time around she should have known better.

 

[Kean]

I may be remembering wrong, but about the Ted thing- wasn't he drugging everybody, including Joyce? I can't say I blame her for being on his side if that was the case. And when the police came to Buffy's house after Ted was "killed", Joyce immediately tries to cover for Buffy, even though at that point she thought her fiance was murdered by her own daughter. I think that says a lot about her priorities. She's trying to protect her daughter.

Yeah, they were given a drug that made them happier but does that justify Joyce allowing Ted, this stranger, to discipline Buffy? To have say in how/when she does her homework? I mean Joyce had JUST started dating him. He had no place in Buffy's life when he had just entered Joyce's. Plus, I firmly believe Joyce's main allegiance should have been to Buffy, not Ted. When Buffy expressed misgivings, childish or not it, was Joyce's duty as a mother to see her daughter struggling with this new turn in her life and address it, not dismiss it.

I'm not saying she didn't love her daughter. She clearly did. But things like this are glaring examples of when she got it very wrong.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Overall, I think Joyce was a good parent. She loved her children deeply, and she was there when they needed her. However, she definitely had some moments that made me question her parenting abilities.

I think in the beginning she was way too quick to trust books and other people's opinions about what a good parent should be. She seemed pretty self-absorbed a lot in the early seasons of the show, which would sometimes really get under my skin.

 

[Zeppo]

I don't know. I'm not a parent, I don't know what one would even feel and think in such a situation, but I believe telling your child they can never come back is not something that should ever be resorted to. And that is the last thing I'm going to say on this.

Ok. All's I am saying is that two wrongs don't make a right but there was nothing Joyce could've done in that situation to make it right. Absolutely nothing. So I find it unfair to judge her harshly for this moment.

 

[Mumrik]

Ok. All's I am saying is that two wrongs don't make a right but there was nothing Joyce could've done in that situation to make it right. Absolutely nothing. So I find it unfair to judge her harshly for this moment.

Oh, I agree there's nothing that could have been done. I just think the "don't come back" was her going too far. But I also admit I don't see this rationally, it just hits a little too close to home.

 

[VisionGirl]

Goby agrees: Awesome post! Except for one point. I didn't appreciate "Even though her actions never (directly or indirectly) led to another's death, unlike some other Buffy characters?" Willow was deeply troubled and should be forgiven. It's been 9 years!

I didn't mean that any particular person should or should not be forgiven, just that it seems that certain characters seem to be held to a different standard.

 

[Goby]

I didn't mean that any particular person should or should not be forgiven, just that it seems that certain characters seem to be held to a different standard.

Perhaps I'm a bit hypersensitive when it comes to my beloved Willow. 😉

BTW, I'm going to rewatch some Joyce episodes tonight.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Reading about some people's reactions to telling Buffy to not come home in end Season 2 kind of has me shaking my head and smirking slightly.

Didn't Buffy pushed Joyce hard (and by hard I mean hard) into the island in the kitchen before Joyce told her not to come back? So hard that Joyce's head kind of snapped back? Guurrrl (and booy) if I had done that to MY mom, being told "Do not come back" would be a light handed punishment. My mother would've snatched me bald.

So it just makes me giggle that we're judging her for telling Buffy something in a moment of anger (and most likely serious pain) after her daughter assaulted her, but we expected her to say what? "Oh it's cool honey, I can grow another spine"?

Joyce had some weird moments as a mom. That scene? Not one of them.

 

[KellGreen]

Reading about some people's reactions to telling Buffy to not come home in end Season 2 kind of has me shaking my head and smirking slightly.

Didn't Buffy pushed Joyce hard (and by hard I mean hard) into the island in the kitchen before Joyce told her not to come back? So hard that Joyce's head kind of snapped back? Guurrrl (and booy) if I had done that to MY mom, being told "Do not come back" would be a light handed punishment. My mother would've snatched me bald.

So it just makes me giggle that we're judging her for telling Buffy something in a moment of anger (and most likely serious pain) after her daughter assaulted her, but we expected her to say what? "Oh it's cool honey, I can grow another spine"?

Joyce had some weird moments as a mom. That scene? Not one of them.

If i recall correctly, Joyce had Buffy's wrist or arm and wouldn't let her go... i'm sure someone else can say for sure😕 I definitely don't recall Joyce's head snapping back, though.